New Obama hypocrisy.

[Moonbeam]

As cubby1223, asks " Have you ever been to Palestine for your own personal knowledge of Palestinian people being treated comparable to the Jews during the Holocaust? Were you personally aboard the "freedom" flotilla that was boarded?"

As I could ask the same questions about you. And you can bet I won't be ringside at the NCCA men's basketball championship either, but I will probably get a better view than those who actually watched the game in person.

Its also the problem with any war, as each individual in each army is mainly left in the dark as they see only a small part of the overall war. While the top commanders who are supposed to understand the big picture habitually lie to lie to their own people? And as Herman Goring pointed out, its easy to drum up a war, but thereafter most everyone on both sides suffer from buyers remorse.

As I suggest to you cubby, if I think different from you, maybe its because I look at the questions from a different and more diverse viewpoints than your limited and probably biased views.

I will stand my record of correct prediction against anyone on this forum. As I also state the current Israeli government is untenable, just because Israel is still going in the wrong direction does not mean an impending crash is not likely. As for Iraq and Afghanistan, I think I have perfectly explained why they backfired on the USA.

But in saying that, it does not mean I am knee jerk pro Palestinian, pro Iranian, or pro Taliban.

You mean you would shoot one of them if he were trying to shoot you? I know, I know, you can't answer.

 

[cubby1223]

Are you asking this seriously? Do you think Israel has concentration camps all throughout the disputed territories, where they are killings millions of Palestinians in just a few years? Do you really think anything even close to that is happening?

THIS is why the haulocaust needs to be taught in schools...people have already forgotten the horror that it was and are using it in stupid comparisons.

Lemon Law is the one who has on multiple occasions made the comparison, not me. It is always important to remember that is his stance, when he tries to force his opinion of other Middle East issues onto others.

 

[cybrsage]

Lemon Law is the one who has on multiple occasions made the comparison, not me. It is always important to remember that is his stance, when he tries to force his opinion of other Middle East issues onto others.

Ah, got it. It did not make any sense at all. It does fit Lemon pretty well, though.

Thanks. I was confused!

 

[Lemon law]

You mean you would shoot one of them if he were trying to shoot you? I know, I know, you can't answer.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please do not make a false case Mooonbeam, if some Muslim, Christian, or atheist comes at me waving a gun, I would probably try to run rather than than shooting. But yes I could shoot to save my own life.

But funny thing, Moonbeam, when I practice a golden rule Philosophy towards others, no one bothers to threaten me. But as soon as we in the USA tell others what to do, its us that becomes the threat. And if we look at our results in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan it never works either.

But it is and remains why I am asking you Moonbeam, why you are so cocksure Iran is a threat. While you ignore the fact that Israel has nuclear weapons and is the more likely cause of a mid-east war?

 

[Moonbeam]

Lemon law: Please do not make a false case Mooonbeam, if some Muslim, Christian, or atheist comes at me waving a gun, I would probably try to run rather than than shooting. But yes I could shoot to save my own life.

M: Ah good. I hoped that by saying you wouldn't answer you would. Of course, I would not feel very good if I ran with the means to go offensive and that left somebody else dead at the hands of our mad man. And actually that is not a false case but my whole argument.

LL: But funny thing, Moonbeam, when I practice a golden rule Philosophy towards others, no one bothers to threaten me. But as soon as we in the USA tell others what to do, its us that becomes the threat. And if we look at our results in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan it never works either.

M: No, you see mad people don't care about the golden rule. So far you have just been practicing a technique that gives you better odds.

LL: But it is and remains why I am asking you Moonbeam, why you are so cocksure Iran is a threat. While you ignore the fact that Israel has nuclear weapons and is the more likely cause of a mid-east war?

The only cocksureness we have here is yours that I view Iran as a threat. But look at what is. Israel has nuclear weapons and they have never used them. Will they if Iran tries for the same? Now let's say Israel is totally mad and will use its weapons against Iran if it arms. Will you give a gun to party B if party A will shoot them? It could be argued by some, I think, that both Iran and Israel are capable of viewing each other with great suspicion.

 

[Lemon law]

Lemon Law is the one who has on multiple occasions made the comparison, not me. It is always important to remember that is his stance, when he tries to force his opinion of other Middle East issues onto others.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Which is maybe exactly the wrong song cubby, I never claimed to be popular as I maybe am better characterized as outspoken. However on various subjects I am passionate and reassert my same position as the same subjects keep coming up on various new threads. I can give you my views, I can explain my reasoning, and also show you the results of the popular forum position so far. But no one can impose their views on anyone.

As for you cubby, I would respect you far more if you ever had a track record of explaining or predicting actual results.

If you read my back posts, I predicted, in 2005, unless we in the USA radically altered tactics, we would lose in Afghanistan and explained why. I made some of the same points on Iraq, and now Iraq could go either way. Especially if Israel bombs Iran, as you have seeming never gotten anything right regarding the Mid-east.

As you seem a poster child for see no evil, hear no evil, and do evil anyway. The monkey see the monkey do argument seldom works. As the rational looks at both sides of the question instead of only conventional US politically correct.

I have no military force to impose my will but when the USA tries to impose our will with military force, we fail to realize it seldom works.

 

[JEDIYoda]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please do not make a false case Mooonbeam, if some Muslim, Christian, or atheist comes at me waving a gun, I would probably try to run rather than than shooting. But yes I could shoot to save my own life.--yeah right, right..ok...we get it....

But funny thing, Moonbeam, when I practice a golden rule Philosophy towards others, no one bothers to threaten me. But as soon as we in the USA tell others what to do, its us that becomes the threat. And if we look at our results in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan it never works either. --- you actually believe that those nations that call for Israel to be blasted off the face of the earth are good upstanding members of the middle east community?
You actually have quite a few serious issues -- Israel`s very existence is enough of a reason for some of these countries to call for Israel`s destruction@@!! It`s pretty amazing that just to exist would encourage those who hate you to call for your destruction.....

But it is and remains why I am asking you Moonbeam, why you are so cocksure Iran is a threat. While you ignore the fact that Israel has nuclear weapons and is the more likely cause of a mid-east war?
Lets see Iran has called for the destruction of Israel....Iran has said it will support any group that commits acts of terrorism against Israel.....
Israel on the other hand if they do have nuclear weapons has not ever used them....and will never use them except if they are faced with total destruction....
I would trust Israel to have nuclear weapons and not use them...over allowing Iran to have nuclear weapons just to see if Iran will use them....that would be a foolish and dumb move!!

Shalom

 

[LunarRay]

When party X is A. enriching uranium that can be weaponized into nuclear weapons and B. claims that a nuclear war doesn't matter because their side will go to heaven you C. demand full access to their nuclear sites immediately or you nuke them as fast as you can.

The dangerously insane have to be put down, just as you would a rabid dog. The sane have a duty to protect innocent people from dangerous mad men. Pantie waist liberals don't seem to get this.

Remember that Moonbeam's law will only ever have to be fully applied but once. From that point on there will always be open access.

Wow!!

The second para contains the conclusion that folks who enrich uranium and have the expectation of heaven if they die as a result of the nuclear war that such enrichment necessitates - or I'd opine any other event that terminates their earthly visit - are insane... And, some sane folks must protect innocent folks from this clear and present danger....

Seems to me lots of folks meet that criteria of madness... The USA included... "... I only regret that I have but one life to give for my country..." Guess Nathan lived in the wrong era... I would imagine that many Christians await the Second Coming... pre trib, mid trib or God forbit... post trib... You can't thwart God's will in any of this... (I'm told).

I think the madness is found in the minds and hearts of folks who'd consume the lives of their country men in the pursuit of their agenda regardless of who has the agenda that would effect that.

Do the power brokers who control Washington fear an attack on Israel or the strengthening of the sovereignty of Iran? What ever happened to the notion that Congress... the people... in the USA declare war or has there been a new finding of WMD, Delivery platforms and an intent to use them in 45 days been established?

What is the difference between a nuclear explosive device and a bunch of planes with very large bombs? Or... some sort of chemical thingi... I think there is little difference but...
Is it madness to want defense? Or offense to stymie an invasive adventure for what ever the reason? The best offense is a strong defense!

They came on a Pale horse and Death followed... Who is on what horsey...

 

[LunarRay]

Who determines what is right or wrong? Is it the duty of the Strong to insure all the Weak follow the philosophy the Strong dictate? Is there some Divine dictate that establishes all matters or is it instinctive behavior like those baboons Moonster mentioned that killed the bad guy panther or what ever it was.. Maybe it is self preservation among lions that demands Iran arm itself against what they believe is the greatest threat to their existence.

I am an isolationist of sorts... Let em take care of themselves or not... We've a nation full of issues that need the resources this plentiful nation has. Guns or butter... Butter wins out and it should be used to feed the hungry here, there and anywhere... Why should we kill when we can simply insure that the potential for insanity stays away... within reason, of course.

On what authority do we rely in the grand scheme we have evolved to effect? As a Christian I am bound to allow Cesar to do as Cesar wishes on this tiny planet among the bazillions around this universe. We have more than enough trouble dealing with our own insanity than to expect we can cure every-one's. But, I guess killing them not only cures them but also opens the gates of heaven for them... Much better place I'm told... better golf courses even.

 

[Moonbeam]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonbeam
When party X is A. enriching uranium that can be weaponized into nuclear weapons and B. claims that a nuclear war doesn't matter because their side will go to heaven you C. demand full access to their nuclear sites immediately or you nuke them as fast as you can.

The dangerously insane have to be put down, just as you would a rabid dog. The sane have a duty to protect innocent people from dangerous mad men. Pantie waist liberals don't seem to get this.

Remember that Moonbeam's law will only ever have to be fully applied but once. From that point on there will always be open access.


LunarRay: Wow!!

The second para contains the conclusion that folks who enrich uranium and have the expectation of heaven if they die as a result of the nuclear war that such enrichment necessitates - or I'd opine any other event that terminates their earthly visit - are insane... And, some sane folks must protect innocent folks from this clear and present danger....

M: Since I don't know what exactly you mean here I will say it again: The conclusion I draw is that if you have X threat that tells you he is going to kill you even if it kills him because he and not you is going to heaven and you have determined by evidence of some kind that his statement is actually true and also that there is no way to prevent him from acquiring that weapon short of taking the life, then, for the sake of the victims that are surely coming on your side, you can take his.

LR: Seems to me lots of folks meet that criteria of madness... The USA included... "... I only regret that I have but one life to give for my country..." Guess Nathan lived in the wrong era... I would imagine that many Christians await the Second Coming... pre trib, mid trib or God forbit... post trib... You can't thwart God's will in any of this... (I'm told).

M: But the principle remains the same. Even if you are crazy yourself or a worthless criminal, you have a right to self defense. The issue you worry about is how to know the truth of another's intentions. This is impossible but you can take a person at his word. If somebody says they are going to shoot you, you may want to run.

LR: I think the madness is found in the minds and hearts of folks who'd consume the lives of their country men in the pursuit of their agenda regardless of who has the agenda that would effect that.

M: If the facts are as I state them then this also doesn't matter. You have a right to self defense even if somebody undeserving will inherit the estate of the person you kill.

LR: Do the power brokers who control Washington fear an attack on Israel or the strengthening of the sovereignty of Iran? What ever happened to the notion that Congress... the people... in the USA declare war or has there been a new finding of WMD, Delivery platforms and an intent to use them in 45 days been established?

M: These are all very good points but a separate issue.

LR: What is the difference between a nuclear explosive device and a bunch of planes with very large bombs? Or... some sort of chemical thingi... I think there is little difference but...
Is it madness to want defense? Or offense to stymie an invasive adventure for what ever the reason? The best offense is a strong defense!

M: It's sad that one is needed. But we defend because we know some folk offend if not deterred. Some folk, in fact, can't be deterred by anything except their deaths. For this reason it may be proper to fire on a suicide bomber walking toward a crowd if that's the only way you have to stop them.

They came on a Pale horse and Death followed... Who is on what horsey...

If the come on a Pale horse after me than I am.

 

[Moonbeam]

LunarRay: Who determines what is right or wrong? Is it the duty of the Strong to insure all the Weak follow the philosophy the Strong dictate? Is there some Divine dictate that establishes all matters or is it instinctive behavior like those baboons Moonster mentioned that killed the bad guy panther or what ever it was.. Maybe it is self preservation among lions that demands Iran arm itself against what they believe is the greatest threat to their existence.

M: Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

LR: I am an isolationist of sorts... Let em take care of themselves or not... We've a nation full of issues that need the resources this plentiful nation has. Guns or butter... Butter wins out and it should be used to feed the hungry here, there and anywhere... Why should we kill when we can simply insure that the potential for insanity stays away... within reason, of course.

M: Sounds good to me but it seems that from our meddling we now have lots and lots of 'friends'

LR: On what authority do we rely in the grand scheme we have evolved to effect? As a Christian I am bound to allow Cesar to do as Cesar wishes on this tiny planet among the bazillions around this universe. We have more than enough trouble dealing with our own insanity than to expect we can cure every-one's. But, I guess killing them not only cures them but also opens the gates of heaven for them... Much better place I'm told... better golf courses even.

M: I do not see any authority. I only believe that it is better if somebody who wants to kill dies than somebody who wants to live in peace. That is why I would plug anybody who drew and shot at you if the situation arose and I could. Certainty is such a terrible thing and I have no doubt at all.

 

[LunarRay]

LunarRay: Who determines what is right or wrong? Is it the duty of the Strong to insure all the Weak follow the philosophy the Strong dictate? Is there some Divine dictate that establishes all matters or is it instinctive behavior like those baboons Moonster mentioned that killed the bad guy panther or what ever it was.. Maybe it is self preservation among lions that demands Iran arm itself against what they believe is the greatest threat to their existence.

M: Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

LR: I am an isolationist of sorts... Let em take care of themselves or not... We've a nation full of issues that need the resources this plentiful nation has. Guns or butter... Butter wins out and it should be used to feed the hungry here, there and anywhere... Why should we kill when we can simply insure that the potential for insanity stays away... within reason, of course.

M: Sounds good to me but it seems that from our meddling we now have lots and lots of 'friends'

LR: On what authority do we rely in the grand scheme we have evolved to effect? As a Christian I am bound to allow Cesar to do as Cesar wishes on this tiny planet among the bazillions around this universe. We have more than enough trouble dealing with our own insanity than to expect we can cure every-one's. But, I guess killing them not only cures them but also opens the gates of heaven for them... Much better place I'm told... better golf courses even.

M: I do not see any authority. I only believe that it is better if somebody who wants to kill dies than somebody who wants to live in peace. That is why I would plug anybody who drew and shot at you if the situation arose and I could. Certainty is such a terrible thing and I have no doubt at all.

Then I'd suggest that no one has a right to preemptive action! The guy with the gun that you suspect will shoot you may not have that agenda in mind... it may be that he is only trying to thwart the aggressor he fears and it may not be you... unless it is...

It appears folks here abouts tend to assign intentions to folks based on some misguided notion that folks are going to harm them cuz they are of this or that religion or locale... I don't.

I live by the creed that I can't keep you from trying but I will break you of the habit... I apply that to most anything. IF I'm attacked today I'll be less able to effect my notion than in earlier years but such is life.
It is far better to adopt the philosophy that some fellow once probably said to his attacker..

"During the civil wars in feudal Japan, an invading army would quickly sweep into a town and take control. In one particular village, everyone fled just before the army arrived - everyone except the Zen master. Curious about this old fellow, the general went to the temple to see for himself what kind of man this master was. When he wasn't treated with the deference and submissiveness to which he was accustomed, the general burst into anger. "You fool," he shouted as he reached for his sword, "don't you realize you are standing before a man who could run you through without blinking an eye!" But despite the threat, the master seemed unmoved. "And do you realize," the master replied calmly, "that you are standing before a man who can be run through without blinking an eye?"

Sorry Moonster but I've long ago lost fear if I ever had any... and I don't fear Iran or any such people... They have the fear as do those who'd live to terminate them...

 

[cubby1223]

And at the same time, the USA invaded Iraq on the premise that Saddam had WMD, when it fact, Saddam did not have WMD. And now, 10 years later, US citizens have pissed some 4000 US lives down an Iraqi rat hole, and another 2 trillion dollars to boot on a invasion that was based on nothing but false suspicions, and now we have nothing to show for it.

Saddam Hussein's regime was estimated to have executed anywhere from 300,000 to 600,000 Iraqi citizens over the years he was ruler.

How many to be exact? Let's take the middle, 450,000, for sake of this argument. Lemon Law, are you saying here that 1 U.S. citizen is not worth 112 Iraqi citizen lives? I thought one of your great principles is that all people on Earth are equal, and equally deserving of basic human rights, of freedom, against oppression.

You also oppose Israel for your belief they are preventing Palestinians from holding true elections. It truly is a shame there were no WMD's found in Iraq. We haved hundreds of thousands of more lives and put them on a path towards Democracy and influence in their leadership, all for nothing. Shame on the U.S.

 

[Moonbeam]

Then I'd suggest that no one has a right to preemptive action! The guy with the gun that you suspect will shoot you may not have that agenda in mind... it may be that he is only trying to thwart the aggressor he fears and it may not be you... unless it is...

It appears folks here abouts tend to assign intentions to folks based on some misguided notion that folks are going to harm them cuz they are of this or that religion or locale... I don't.

I live by the creed that I can't keep you from trying but I will break you of the habit... I apply that to most anything. IF I'm attacked today I'll be less able to effect my notion than in earlier years but such is life.
It is far better to adopt the philosophy that some fellow once probably said to his attacker..

"During the civil wars in feudal Japan, an invading army would quickly sweep into a town and take control. In one particular village, everyone fled just before the army arrived - everyone except the Zen master. Curious about this old fellow, the general went to the temple to see for himself what kind of man this master was. When he wasn't treated with the deference and submissiveness to which he was accustomed, the general burst into anger. "You fool," he shouted as he reached for his sword, "don't you realize you are standing before a man who could run you through without blinking an eye!" But despite the threat, the master seemed unmoved. "And do you realize," the master replied calmly, "that you are standing before a man who can be run through without blinking an eye?"

Sorry Moonster but I've long ago lost fear if I ever had any... and I don't fear Iran or any such people... They have the fear as do those who'd live to terminate them...

FEAR

Nasrudin was walking along a lonely road one moonlit night when he heard a snore seemingly directly beneath his feet. Suddenly he experienced fear and was about to flee when he tripped over a dervish lying in a pit which he had dug for himself, partly underground. "Who are you?" the Mulla stammered. "I am a dervish, and this is my contemplation place." Nasrudin replied, "You will have to let me share it. Your snoring frightened me out of my wits, and I cannot continue any further this night." "Take the other end of this blanket, then," said the dervish without much enthusiasm, "and lie down here. Please be quiet, because I am keeping a vigil. It is a part of a complicated series of exercises. Tomorrow I must change the pattern, and I cannot stand any interruption." Nasrudin fell asleep for a while. Then he woke up, very thirsty. "I am thirsty," he told the dervish. "Then go back down the road, where there is a stream." "No,I am still afraid." replied Nasrudin. "I shall go for you then," said the dervish. "After all, to provide water is a sacred obligation in the East." "No, please don't go for I am still afraid to be alone!" "Take this knife, to defend yourself then," said the dervish. While he was away Nasrudin frightened himself still more, working himself up into a frenzy, which he tried to counter by imagining how he would attack any demon who threatened him. Presently the dervish returned. "Keep your distance, or "I'll kill you!" said Nasrudin. "But I am the dervish," said the dervish. "I don't care who you are-your maybe a demon in disguise. Besides, you have your head and eyebrows shaved!" The dervishes of that order shave their head and eyebrows. "But I have come to bring you water! Don't you remember-you are thirsty!" "Don't try and ingratiate yourself with me, Demon!" "But that is my hole you are occupying!" said the dervish. "That's hard luck for you, isn't it? You'll just have to find another one." replied Nasrudin. "I suppose so," said the dervish, "but I am sure I don't know what to make of all this." "I can tell you one thing," said Nasrudin, "and that is that fear is multidirectional." "It certainly seems stronger than thirst, or sanity, or other peoples property," said the dervish. "AND you don't have to have it yourself in order to suffer from it!" said Nasrudin.

 

[Stayfr0sty]

Saddam Hussein's regime was estimated to have executed anywhere from 300,000 to 600,000 Iraqi citizens over the years he was ruler.

How many to be exact? Let's take the middle, 450,000, for sake of this argument. Lemon Law, are you saying here that 1 U.S. citizen is not worth 112 Iraqi citizen lives? I thought one of your great principles is that all people on Earth are equal, and equally deserving of basic human rights, of freedom, against oppression.

You also oppose Israel for your belief they are preventing Palestinians from holding true elections. It truly is a shame there were no WMD's found in Iraq. We haved hundreds of thousands of more lives and put them on a path towards Democracy and influence in their leadership, all for nothing. Shame on the U.S.

You mean shame on GW Bush.
Trust me, we did not want to go to Iraq.....

 

[Lemon law]

Saddam Hussein's regime was estimated to have executed anywhere from 300,000 to 600,000 Iraqi citizens over the years he was ruler.

How many to be exact? Let's take the middle, 450,000, for sake of this argument. Lemon Law, are you saying here that 1 U.S. citizen is not worth 112 Iraqi citizen lives? I thought one of your great principles is that all people on Earth are equal, and equally deserving of basic human rights, of freedom, against oppression.

You also oppose Israel for your belief they are preventing Palestinians from holding true elections. It truly is a shame there were no WMD's found in Iraq. We haved hundreds of thousands of more lives and put them on a path towards Democracy and influence in their leadership, all for nothing. Shame on the U.S.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On one hand, cubby, I will not argue that Saddam Hessein killed perhaps a half-million of his own people during his brutal period in power.

But sometimes the Dr. Sam USA cure is worse than the disease itself, as it almost certainly was in Iraq. And the cure was administered in two separate doses.

(1) Bush the first told Saddam to get out of the Kuwait he had grabbed in 1989 as Saddam refused. So GHB competently put together put together coalition of the willing
to militarily force Saddam out of Kuwait. A rather limited goal and a poorly planned one
as it turned out. But by 1/1990 the coalition of the willing was ready to start. As a major 2 month aerial bombard of Iraq started that did not hurt Saddam a bit. But by the time the bombing ended, the water and electrical infrastructure in nearly every Iraqi city and even village was destroyed. As that hurt the hell out of the only the Iraqi people. Then to add injury to insult, once the coalition of the willing took to their tanks and actually invaded Iraq, Saddam surrendered in less than a week. And instead of forcing the end of Saddam's rule, GHB was more afraid of Iraqi anarchy so he put Saddam back in charge of Iraq. Which allowed Saddam to murder another 50,000 or so more Iraq civilians.

(2) Dose two came when the scrub was in charge, as he added the second Jewel of Iraq to his resume as a war time president. As he lied this country into war on totally false premises. And at least GWB properly targeted Saddam Hessein. And after a short aerial bombardment, US tanks headed for Baghdad meeting minimum resistance along the way.
And once US tanks rolled into Baghdad, the military phase was over and the hard part began. As GWB and the USA were now stuck with the very military occupation his father feared. As GWB and his poor planning met reality as his Mr. Potato head Iraqi strategy failed immediately. As GWB had bet the farm on the idea that if he removed Saddam from being the head of the Iraqi government, he could graft the head of Chalibi in its place and the Iraqi government would continue to function just like before. And even worse the super egotistical Rumsfeld had convinced himself he was above the 1 troop per 50 in population rule needed to run a military occupation agreed to by every war college on earth. And with only 1/3 of the troops needed, Iraq was soon in full out ethnic cleansing mode, that may have killed twice the people cubby accused Saddam of killing. And certainly resulted in 2 million Iraqi's exiled.

And as proof, there have been numerous Iraqi man on the street polls asking the following question. Is life today better today than it was under Saddam? And the almost invariable Iraq answer the quality of Iraqi life was better off under Saddam.

Does that answer your questions cubby? Just because Saddam was pure evil does not mean the USA can't exceed even Saddam. As the road to hell can be paved with good but incompetent intentions. As GWB in a far shorter time period may have killed more Iraqis than Saddam himself.

 

[LunarRay]

FEAR

Nasrudin was walking along a lonely road one moonlit night when he heard a snore seemingly directly beneath his feet. Suddenly he experienced fear and was about to flee when he tripped over a dervish lying in a pit which he had dug for himself, partly underground. "Who are you?" the Mulla stammered. "I am a dervish, and this is my contemplation place." Nasrudin replied, "You will have to let me share it. Your snoring frightened me out of my wits, and I cannot continue any further this night." "Take the other end of this blanket, then," said the dervish without much enthusiasm, "and lie down here. Please be quiet, because I am keeping a vigil. It is a part of a complicated series of exercises. Tomorrow I must change the pattern, and I cannot stand any interruption." Nasrudin fell asleep for a while. Then he woke up, very thirsty. "I am thirsty," he told the dervish. "Then go back down the road, where there is a stream." "No,I am still afraid." replied Nasrudin. "I shall go for you then," said the dervish. "After all, to provide water is a sacred obligation in the East." "No, please don't go for I am still afraid to be alone!" "Take this knife, to defend yourself then," said the dervish. While he was away Nasrudin frightened himself still more, working himself up into a frenzy, which he tried to counter by imagining how he would attack any demon who threatened him. Presently the dervish returned. "Keep your distance, or "I'll kill you!" said Nasrudin. "But I am the dervish," said the dervish. "I don't care who you are-your maybe a demon in disguise. Besides, you have your head and eyebrows shaved!" The dervishes of that order shave their head and eyebrows. "But I have come to bring you water! Don't you remember-you are thirsty!" "Don't try and ingratiate yourself with me, Demon!" "But that is my hole you are occupying!" said the dervish. "That's hard luck for you, isn't it? You'll just have to find another one." replied Nasrudin. "I suppose so," said the dervish, "but I am sure I don't know what to make of all this." "I can tell you one thing," said Nasrudin, "and that is that fear is multidirectional." "It certainly seems stronger than thirst, or sanity, or other peoples property," said the dervish. "AND you don't have to have it yourself in order to suffer from it!" said Nasrudin.

Poor poor Nasrudin... He reacts to what his fear sees and not at all to what is obvious. Nasrudin needs to be clear that it was the Dervish who suffered a bit from the actions of Nasrudin's induced fear even though initially the Dervish was a feared by something that was over come by the 'Duty' to present the water.
So... I see that if a Dervish can dispel his fear and adopt the actions of a greater good so can our war mongering, fear induced leaders. But, what might this greater good be, I wonder... AND, if fear can be 'transmitted' and suffered by others can not the greater good performed also be likewise 'transmitted' and enjoyed?
Hmmmm... I wonder...

What might the ultimate and greatest good be...

 

[LunarRay]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On one hand, cubby, I will not argue that Saddam Hessein killed perhaps a half-million of his own people during his brutal period in power.

But sometimes the Dr. Sam USA cure is worse than the disease itself, as it almost certainly was in Iraq. And the cure was administered in two separate doses.

(1) Bush the first told Saddam to get out of the Kuwait he had grabbed in 1989 as Saddam refused. So GHB competently put together put together coalition of the willing
to militarily force Saddam out of Kuwait. A rather limited goal and a poorly planned one
as it turned out. But by 1/1990 the coalition of the willing was ready to start. As a major 2 month aerial bombard of Iraq started that did not hurt Saddam a bit. But by the time the bombing ended, the water and electrical infrastructure in nearly every Iraqi city and even village was destroyed. As that hurt the hell out of the only the Iraqi people. Then to add injury to insult, once the coalition of the willing took to their tanks and actually invaded Iraq, Saddam surrendered in less than a week. And instead of forcing the end of Saddam's rule, GHB was more afraid of Iraqi anarchy so he put Saddam back in charge of Iraq. Which allowed Saddam to murder another 50,000 or so more Iraq civilians.

(2) Dose two came when the scrub was in charge, as he added the second Jewel of Iraq to his resume as a war time president. As he lied this country into war on totally false premises. And at least GWB properly targeted Saddam Hessein. And after a short aerial bombardment, US tanks headed for Baghdad meeting minimum resistance along the way.
And once US tanks rolled into Baghdad, the military phase was over and the hard part began. As GWB and the USA were now stuck with the very military occupation his father feared. As GWB and his poor planning met reality as his Mr. Potato head Iraqi strategy failed immediately. As GWB had bet the farm on the idea that if he removed Saddam from being the head of the Iraqi government, he could graft the head of Chalibi in its place and the Iraqi government would continue to function just like before. And even worse the super egotistical Rumsfeld had convinced himself he was above the 1 troop per 50 in population rule needed to run a military occupation agreed to by every war college on earth. And with only 1/3 of the troops needed, Iraq was soon in full out ethnic cleansing mode, that may have killed twice the people cubby accused Saddam of killing. And certainly resulted in 2 million Iraqi's exiled.

And as proof, there have been numerous Iraqi man on the street polls asking the following question. Is life today better today than it was under Saddam? And the almost invariable Iraq answer the quality of Iraqi life was better off under Saddam.

Does that answer your questions cubby? Just because Saddam was pure evil does not mean the USA can't exceed even Saddam. As the road to hell can be paved with good but incompetent intentions. As GWB in a far shorter time period may have killed more Iraqis than Saddam himself.

We claim to enjoy Peace and Freedom... demand it even but we sacrifice peace for something other than freedom. We see others as they ought to be and not how they are apparently. I never did see those flowers in the hands of the freed Iraqi but I did see the dead with a few flowers tossed here and there.
April Glaspie, the apparent voice of the American Government over there, seems to have made a mess of it all.
I don't think we gave two hoots in hell about the common folks there. I think Saddam's oil currency intervention toward the Euro was the last straw for the Brothers in arms... A move to the Euro denominated oil would have done more to upset the Western World's economy than anything else could have... imo.
Nah, our motivation was not Saddam's civil war issues but rather our own and those of the West to maintain Economic stability...

 

[Moonbeam]

Poor poor Nasrudin... He reacts to what his fear sees and not at all to what is obvious. Nasrudin needs to be clear that it was the Dervish who suffered a bit from the actions of Nasrudin's induced fear even though initially the Dervish was a feared by something that was over come by the 'Duty' to present the water.
So... I see that if a Dervish can dispel his fear and adopt the actions of a greater good so can our war mongering, fear induced leaders. But, what might this greater good be, I wonder... AND, if fear can be 'transmitted' and suffered by others can not the greater good performed also be likewise 'transmitted' and enjoyed?
Hmmmm... I wonder...

What might the ultimate and greatest good be...

But our dear dervish was an isolationist who while seeking the truth had actually fallen asleep and the consequences of that is what Nasrudin had to teach him. The notion that we can isolate ourselves from the insanity of others isn't real. The truth is that the sane must protect the innocent in the name of the greater good. The argument, of course, is all about what it means to be sane. I gave you, as I remember, the film Red Beard, in which we see all of this in action. You don't want to mess with a Baboon.