New Obama hypocrisy.

[Nemesis 1]

Look I don't like the Iranian regime/government/whatever either, but it doesn't seem to be the right thing to do. Sanctions embolden their position, which will then require us to take the next step, and back and forth etc etc. We should try to destroy them through being a shiny beacon of liberty and success. Destroy them with our productivity, innovation and economy. It's not like they pose any sort of military threat.

I am sorry I can't stop laughing. Here you are one of the few in America that can see the truth for what it is and yet that truth is meaningless in this America. our own government . A supposed government that acts in accordance with the wishes of WE The People is a flat out LIE. It has been for along time now . You understand the the truth. But that truth doesn't exist in the World. So now what do ya do.

 

[Nemesis 1]

When party X is A. enriching uranium that can be weaponized into nuclear weapons and B. claims that a nuclear war doesn't matter because their side will go to heaven you C. demand full access to their nuclear sites immediately or you nuke them as fast as you can.

The dangerously insane have to be put down, just as you would a rabid dog. The sane have a duty to protect innocent people from dangerous mad men. Pantie waist liberals don't seem to get this.

Remember that Moonbeam's law will only ever have to be fully applied but once. From that point on there will always be open access.

This is the most dangerious insane thinking I have ever witnessed you writing , That self hate you talk about has grown strong in you and along with it the powers of the dark side. Even if you are correct in this instance the premise is just plan wrong and evil. Judge not least ye be judged

 

[Nemesis 1]

In the third place they seem to appreciate life on earth and don't seem to want to commit suicide to get to heaven. Everybody is irrational but not everybody is willing to die themselves to kill you.

See your problem here is you don't understand a ding dang thing. Israel as a nation does not exist. The nation of Israel comprizes the Hewbrew people. The nation you inferr to be Israel is not fact Judea. A state of Israel. This Israel is in fact a religious government. Based on Religious beliefs and the prophets being at the forefront of those beliefs. The Nation you call Israel exist for one reason and one reason only To bring about and fulfill prophecy.
You should understand what they believe their destiny is . I am not comfortable with the Religious state if Israel. The Jewish Religious FAITH teaches and Believes in a Messiah. The do not Except Christ as that Messiah. The Messiah they await Is a Worldly Leader that Puts Israel as THE WORLD POWER

If this is not the Truth as a written . Than the Truth would be other and that truth would mean that the religious state of Israel does not exist and that the jewish faith beliefs and teaching are lies and their for everthing we westerners base morality on is a lie.

 

[dmcowen674]

Obama has now determined, that Iranian sanctions are somehow permissible because taking Iranian oil off world markets will not adversely effect world oil prices.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/...h-sanctions-targeting-iran-oil-190045204.html

But if we examine the logic and its converse, its totally bogus stinking thinking. Because if we assumed on no logical basis that Iran intends to develop nuclear weapons, why would an adverse effect on world prices make the Iranian nuclear permissible?

The fact is and remains, there is absolutely no evidence that Iran is developing nuclear weapons.

And at the same time, the USA invaded Iraq on the premise that Saddam had WMD, when it fact, Saddam did not have WMD. And now, 10 years later, US citizens have pissed some 4000 US lives down an Iraqi rat hole, and another 2 trillion dollars to boot on a invasion that was based on nothing but false suspicions, and now we have nothing to show for it. At the very time when the occupation of Afghanistan is on the verge of total failure.

And now on that same false suspicions basis, the USA and the EU have learned nothing and want to try more of the same in Iran.

Which may not be easy this time, as other mid-east nations may side with Iran as Turkey is already saying. As Israel chomps at the bit to bomb Iran when Israel is the most hated nation in the mid-east.

The US simply can't accept the fact that their US puppet in the Shah of Iran got the ole heave ho from the Iranian people and simply will never come back. Meanwhile for 30 years the US has tried various things to torpedo Iran, and its backfired on the US every time.

Israel and the US have already pushed up US gas prices by 50 cents a gallon, and now Obama risks pushing up US gas prices to $15.00 or more. By alienating Arab nations and the world with only suspicions.

Well we need $15 a gallon gas at a minimum. Would be better at $20 a gallon.

We've secured the oil in Iraq ow it is time to get the oil in Iran. :thumbsup:

 

[soccerballtux]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with the senseamp point but its understated.

As its quite evident to Iran, that the IAEA officials turn their findings over to Israel, and the Israel uses it to murder Iranian nuclear scientists. A fact that the US State department has confirmed. As Israel, IMHO, should not even have a right to get the time of day from the IAEA.

Then we can take the other fact from the horse mouth in Leon Pinetta, who also states there is zero evidence Iran intends to go the nuclear weapons route as that Iranian option is still two years away for Iran.

Or we can also ask, when GWB&co made a totally false case of Saddam having WMD and sold a war on the basis of a totally fraudulent sales job, why should not the international community have indicted GWB&co for international war crimes? Or failing that, pay no attention to new US lies for being the little boy who cried wolf riding again.

As we all should ask, if the USA in its arrogance gets it wrong and skyrockets world oil prices, USA foreign policy is going to suffer a very large dopeslap. I would vote GOP on that basis if it were not for the fact the GOP is even more delusional. Or vote for Ron Paul who at least gets that point but will still lead to a even worse end.

if you actually believe these lies from the Liberal Media Machine then there is no sense even bothering to discuss it...

 

[soccerballtux]

He "sorta" allowed inspectors. He routinely kicked them out, denied them access to places, etc. It was not all hugs and man-kisses.

they never got to come in unannounced. That's all anybody wants, and if their plans are peaceful they should have nothing to hide. But it's clear they want nukes judging by their secrecy. The burden of proof is on them, and being secret is all we need to know that they're lying.

Anyone hiding from inspectors or restricting their movement does not have peaceful intentions.

 

[soccerballtux]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If Moonbeam's law has any validity, why is not Moonbean applying his law equally to Israel? As Israel never bothered to enrich Uranium and instead has been enriching plutonium at an ever faster rate. And now is a nuclear threat of the first order as Israeli irrationality makes Israel the most destabilizing nation in the mid-east.

Why not inspect Israel also Moonbeam?

Lemon, we have discussed this before. You know that nobody in the middle east aside from Iraq/Iran care that Israel has nukes. Nobody wanted nukes until it became clear Iran was pursing a non-peaceful nuclear program. Israel had nukes from us for 30 years, nobody over there cared or wanted their own program, until Iran had one.

 

[Jaskalas]

Iran is a country where officials out of favor are removed on the charge of sorcery. Members of their government say that the Holocaust never happened, that Israel needs to be eliminated and have announced they'll hire terrorists. When people protest they eliminate them and I mean forever. It's a place with a crazy ass government. Thats why people are a bit uneasy allowing weapons of mass mayhem to come under their control. They never need use them to destabilize things in their favor of course. The problem is with practical options. Giving a blessing to such people isn't a great idea but war is a bad idea. No one seriously desires military action yet so what does that leave? Sanctions.

Push the dog into a corner so it bites, an unintelligent move when nuclear power is involved.

If a nation like, say, France was sanctioned then its people would revolt. I believe Iran has proven it is not adverse to killing its own. The people will not stop them for us, so now it comes down to the unity of the government and if they divide.

Best case scenario it follows Libya. What happens then to the nuclear material? Even the best case can leave us with a market for dirty bombs, or in a few years, nuclear weapons.

How we proceed with Iran can define and shape nuclear terrorism for decades to come.

 

[FoBoT]

you guys do recall that the presidents during WWI and WWII were two of the most progressive Democrats? (Wilson, FDR), so if Obama is president when WWIII starts, that puts him in really good company, as far as legacy/history goes

the first two posts by craig234 and lemon law are basically correct, the only thing that this president is dancing around in regard to Iran and Israel bombing their facilities is his re-election. he just doesn't want his 'base' , that think he is 'anti-war', to get pissed before they pull the lever for him on Nov 6. and the effect any actions have on oil prices which can influence an even wider block of voters, if gasoline prices go too high

there are only a very small number of politicians in BOTH parties that are truly 'anti-war' , Dr. Paul and Dennis Kucinich come to mind, both of whom will be out of the Congress in January

Obama, like all past presidents (maybe excepting LBJ? since he actually didn't run for re-election) just wants to get re-elected. and i thought it was made clear with his Libya deal that Obama isn't really anti-war

 

[FoBoT]

this does bring to mind a question i have had on this, is it merely a coincidence that we are 'against' the Shia Muslim nations and aligned with the Sunni Islam?
or is there something in what each sect believes that naturally makes Shia dislike the 'Western World' more and Sunni more tolerant and willing to align themselves with us?

Iraq is majority Shia (like Iran) even though Saddam Hussein was not Shia? i think that is correct, so we invaded one of the largest Shia nations and are now poised to assist Israel in taking actions against the largest Shia nation?

is this just coincidence?

 

[Lemon law]

this does bring to mind a question i have had on this, is it merely a coincidence that we are 'against' the Shia Muslim nations and aligned with the Sunni Islam?
or is there something in what each sect believes that naturally makes Shia dislike the 'Western World' more and Sunni more tolerant and willing to align themselves with us?

Iraq is majority Shia (like Iran) even though Saddam Hussein was not Shia? i think that is correct, so we invaded one of the largest Shia nations and are now poised to assist Israel in taking actions against the largest Shia nation?

is this just coincidence?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On that Saddam point you are wrong, as Saddam Hussein and the bathith party were aligned with the Sunni sect of Islam. When Iraq was cobbled together from left over bits of Ottoman empire in 1920, its population was basically majority Sunni, as the Brits were also careful to put Sunni leaders in charge. But when GWB invaded Iraq in 2003, changing demographics made the Iraqi population majority Shia. But still ole Saddam had outrageously favored its Sunni minority in his reign of terror. Which is part of the reason, once Saddam fell, that sectarian violence was primarily directed at the Sunnis as it became payback time.

The other thing to mention is that Iran and Saudi Arabia had basically lived at peaces with
each other since the formation of Islam. But once GWB mentioned the panacea of democracy for Shia majority Iraq, its only since then that Saudi Arabia feels isolated.

 

[JEDIYoda]

When party X is A. enriching uranium that can be weaponized into nuclear weapons and B. claims that a nuclear war doesn't matter because their side will go to heaven you C. demand full access to their nuclear sites immediately or you nuke them as fast as you can.

The dangerously insane have to be put down, just as you would a rabid dog. The sane have a duty to protect innocent people from dangerous mad men. Pantie waist liberals don't seem to get this.

Remember that Moonbeam's law will only ever have to be fully applied but once. From that point on there will always be open access.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[JEDIYoda]

This is the most dangerious insane thinking I have ever witnessed you writing , That self hate you talk about has grown strong in you and along with it the powers of the dark side. Even if you are correct in this instance the premise is just plan wrong and evil. Judge not least ye be judged

Moonbeam is clearer than he has ever been....in favt Moonbeam has his finger on the issue!! Moonie is 100% correct in his assessment!

 

[Moonbeam]

This is the most dangerious insane thinking I have ever witnessed you writing , That self hate you talk about has grown strong in you and along with it the powers of the dark side. Even if you are correct in this instance the premise is just plan wrong and evil. Judge not least ye be judged

I see this as simple self defense. I have the right to defend myself from somebody who says he's going to try to harm me of others around me. If somebody says they care not at all about life, that they are commanded by God to kill even if they die themselves then they forfeit the right to live anonymously in society, in my opinion. When you arrest a suspect who has been threatening his neighbors with death, you search him and if he has a weapon you take it away. You will also get a medical opinion to see if he's insane. Why should it be any different with nations.

Running a nation shouldn't be for clowns or madmen and the fear of allowing madmen to govern you should always be greater than any fear those madmen can apply to acquire power it seems to me.

I don't want to judge but if a person expresses violent intent and reaches for a gun, I am going to try to stop him. I will let others judge.

 

[Moonbeam]

See your problem here is you don't understand a ding dang thing. Israel as a nation does not exist. The nation of Israel comprizes the Hewbrew people. The nation you inferr to be Israel is not fact Judea. A state of Israel. This Israel is in fact a religious government. Based on Religious beliefs and the prophets being at the forefront of those beliefs. The Nation you call Israel exist for one reason and one reason only To bring about and fulfill prophecy.
You should understand what they believe their destiny is . I am not comfortable with the Religious state if Israel. The Jewish Religious FAITH teaches and Believes in a Messiah. The do not Except Christ as that Messiah. The Messiah they await Is a Worldly Leader that Puts Israel as THE WORLD POWER

If this is not the Truth as a written . Than the Truth would be other and that truth would mean that the religious state of Israel does not exist and that the jewish faith beliefs and teaching are lies and their for everthing we westerners base morality on is a lie.

None of this means anything to me. I am not talking about either Israel or Iran. I am talking about what to do when the insane threaten the innocent. I believe that responsible folk are morally obligated to keep that from happening. I believe that it is life that is sacred.

I remember a story about a naturalist watching a leopard stalk a band of baboons. Two male baboons dropped back and attacked the leopard. They both died but they killed the leopard too. What they did was built into their genes. They didn't judge, they weren't moral or otherwise, they acted on instinct.

I ams what I ams, and that's all that I ams. I'm strong to the finish, cause I eats me spinach, I'm Popeye the Sailorman.

 

[Zebo]

David's Drive at 5 might come to fruition after all. I think it's retarded because our whole economy is simply a derivative of energy, and more specifically gasoline and will hurt as a result but I guess these wise men know better.

 

[Zebo]

Slight chance seeing as how the US actually gave iran nuclear plans http://blog.skepticallibertarian.com/2012/03/14/obamas-war-on-whistleblowers-jeffrey-sterling/
Ya what were they thinking... oops.

Not complicated. Any public library with a good chemistry section tells you how. Hell FAS used to have full plans on working US bombs up to this terrorism stuff started to hit home. Problem is getting there.

 

[JEDIYoda]

None of this means anything to me. I am not talking about either Israel or Iran.

You will have to forgive those who don`t understand your comments.
It seems as of late that in P&N people ass -U-me that anything that is posted in a Lemon law and a few others thread is talking about iether Israel....Iran or Hamas or the people who call themselves Palestinians...LOLOL

 

[cybrsage]

The Jewish Religious FAITH teaches and Believes in a Messiah. The do not Except Christ as that Messiah. The Messiah they await Is a Worldly Leader that Puts Israel as THE WORLD POWER.

There are some Jews who believe Y'shua (Jesus) is the Messiah. It is our job to convince the rest of the Jews of this. It is true that when Jesus returns, He will also be a worldly leader.

 

[Lemon law]

You will have to forgive those who don`t understand your comments.
It seems as of late that in P&N people ass -U-me that anything that is posted in a Lwmon law thread is talking about iether Israel....Iran or Hamas or the people who call themselves Palestinians...LOLOL

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since this a Lemon Law thread, and Moonbeam seeming took the wind out of JediY's sails, maybe its time for me to redefine whom I am talking about in a mid-east thread. And when we have a large regional grouping called the "Mid-east", I have always stood for equal human rights for everyone in the region. I am certainly not advocating that the Palestinians, Hezbollah, Hamas, Iran, and other mid-east nations having superior human rights compared to Israel, or that any mentioned or unmentioned mid-east nations have not become parts of the problem, but I cannot support the current government of Israel because the Nation of Israel is mainly built on the principle of violating the human rights of Palestinians. Nor has the world dug itself into the giant human rights mid-east problems only after the 1948 creation of the State of Israel, as the mid-east has a very much longer history. But we can also somewhat say, in the last thousand years, by in large the entire mid-east became a semi-raid desert region and a total backwater the larger world ceased to care much about. Of course all that changed past 1920 when nations like Saudi Arab, Iran, and Iraq were found to have huge reserves of oil that all industrialized nations depended on. And that dependence gets even more critical as India and China have very recently joined the high world demand oil club. As the Mid-east has now become the most crucial and explosive spot on the planet.

In MHO, people like JediY are only interested in the welfare of Israel and preserving Israel's ability to keep running roughshod over the human rights of its neighbors. while my concerns more involve the future, in finding ways to defuse the tensions of the past, as I certainly believe Israel can and should become a productive and accepted member of the mid-east. Sadly, IMHO, the current government of Israel is going in exactly the wrong direction as it settles all disputed territories as Israel has already fatally damaged the Two State solution.

The entire Israeli bet is that the world will forever give Israel its unconditional support when it can only in the end cause a mid-east melt down in the flow of oil, followed by a worldwide depression.

Maybe we can already see the trend lines, as Israel is somewhat the focus in the rise of international terrorism. As the USA spends ineffectual trillions to try to combat terrorism and it only results in the creation of more terrorism that before.

As we, in the larger world fail to realize the only way to address and reduce terrorism is to reduce it causes in human rights disparities. Its somewhat absurd to think a less than 10 million population nation like Israel can forever dominate a 300 million population mid-east.

Which is not to say, the world must also address Syria and Assaud, but IMHO, both Israel and Syria must be addressed at the same time. Sadly, as the exiled cousin of Assaud points out, the Syrian rebels are becoming Al-Quida driven.

As for my nation, the USA, its simply finding military might is ineffectual, and in trying to get Iran back into the fold has already resulted in losing Iraq too, and any disruption of the mid-east oil flow may topple the house of Faud.

 

[Moonbeam]

Lemon law: Obama has now determined, that Iranian sanctions are somehow permissible because taking Iranian oil off world markets will not adversely effect world oil prices.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/...h-sanctions-targeting-iran-oil-190045204.html

M: He couldn't very well apply sanctions if it would precipitate a world crisis, could he?

LL: But if we examine the logic and its converse, its totally bogus stinking thinking. Because if we assumed on no logical basis that Iran intends to develop nuclear weapons, why would an adverse effect on world prices make the Iranian nuclear permissible?

M: In the first place you assume that you are the scale on which logic is balanced and that what you call logic or illogic is other than just your opinion.

The fact that you called it stinking shows your emotions are involved, never a good sign when speaking of logic.

Finally, an effect on world wide prices would not make an Iranian nuclear program permissible but would only make possible the use of sanctions. If sanctions are off the table then a different path must be used.

It will always be preferable to deter a nation via economic pressure than to threaten them with or move to annihilation.

So a move to use sanctions in this case is not only not illogical, it's the epitome of sanity.

LL: The fact is and remains, there is absolutely no evidence that Iran is developing nuclear weapons.

M: That is irrelevant. They have a nuclear program they will not allow us to inspect and there is evidence that they hide things. Once you have determined that some government etc must not get nuclear weapons then they must open themselves to inspection or die. You can't wait around until they can kill you when you know they care nothing about deterrence.

They simply must open themselves to inspection and if there isn't work to create weapons they are off the hook.

LL: And at the same time, the USA invaded Iraq on the premise that Saddam had WMD, when it fact, Saddam did not have WMD. And now, 10 years later, US citizens have pissed some 4000 US lives down an Iraqi rat hole, and another 2 trillion dollars to boot on a invasion that was based on nothing but false suspicions, and now we have nothing to show for it. At the very time when the occupation of Afghanistan is on the verge of total failure.

M: Past mistakes change nothing about the future. Iran either is or is not developing nuclear weapons. All they have to do is open themselves to inspection or be destroyed. The next time the world wonders about a country they will be sure to open their doors.

And now on that same false suspicions basis, the USA and the EU have learned nothing and want to try more of the same in Iran.

M: Again is doesn't matter of they are real or false. What matters is that Iran not get a weapon and that can only be found out by inspection. Again it's inspections or die.

LL: Which may not be easy this time, as other mid-east nations may side with Iran as Turkey is already saying. As Israel chomps at the bit to bomb Iran when Israel is the most hated nation in the mid-east.

M: All the more reason for Iran to open their doors. Surely an honest country wouldn't want anything bad to happen because they won't allow inspectors in. And they won't so what does that tell you.

LL: The US simply can't accept the fact that their US puppet in the Shah of Iran got the ole heave ho from the Iranian people and simply will never come back. Meanwhile for 30 years the US has tried various things to torpedo Iran, and its backfired on the US every time.

M: If we gave Iran nuclear weapons fresh and ready to go, we would still have to get them back. Mistakes and justifications from the past do not matter. As long as folk with the help of Iran's posture in the world have come to the conclusion that Iran mustn't have nuclear weapons, they will have to be stopped from having them by whatever means required.

LL: Israel and the US have already pushed up US gas prices by 50 cents a gallon, and now Obama risks pushing up US gas prices to $15.00 or more. By alienating Arab nations and the world with only suspicions.

M: The price of gas is of no importance. What is important is insuring that millions or billions of innocent people don't die because somebody is too insane to care.

 

[Lemon law]

As Moonbeam loses me at his first assumption, "M: He (presumably Obama) couldn't very well apply sanctions if it would precipitate a world crisis, could he?"

As I wonder Moonbeam, if you understand anything about world history. As history is full of various empires that over reached and found it only backfired on themselves as millions of innocent people also paid the price. Maybe Napoleon is a classic example as he took over Europe, and then figured conquering Russia would be child's play. As the Russian winter ended up killing the bulk of Napoleon's army. As Hitler tried the same stunt 135 years later with equal results. Fortified with the morality of ending communism.

Yet compare the US reaction when the USA became the only country to have nuclear weapons in 1945. Only to find the USSR became the second member of the Nuclear weapons club only a few years later. And when the USA tested the first hydrogen bomb, the USSR achieved parity only a year later. As the concept and terror of mutual assured destruction became the new rationality. Funny thing Moonbeam, no one rational advocated war with the USSR, as the Moonbeam doctrine seeming applies to only the militarily weak.

And funny thing, where is all the Moonbeam concerns regarding----Quote Moonbeam, "What is important is insuring that millions or billions of innocent people don't die because somebody is too insane to care."

Yet look at the US sanity track record in-------------

(a) In Vietnam. As we tried to oppose Vietnamese reunification. Box score, 58,000 US lives lost as 2 million South and North Vietnamese lives were lost. As the US caused the regional instability that resulted in the killing fields in Cambodia. Tell us again, Moonbeam, what did the US win in the process?

(b) In Iraq as that visionary Rumsfeld talked Saddam Hussein into be being our man in the mid-east, to smite our new found Iranian enemy. Where is all the Moonbeam concerns about the millions of Iranian lives lost as Iran lost the bulk of 3 generations of men trying to beat back the US inspired aggressions of Saddam Hussein? But by then ole Saddam had committed the unpardonable US sin of being a tin pot dictator that would not stay bought for double dealing with the Russians. Somewhat a distinction shared by Noreiga. At least millions of innocent of innocent Panamanians did not die in getting Noreiga. But when Saddam then invaded Kuwait in 1989, in the end resulted in the death of millions of totally innocent Iraqis and infrastructure damage still not repaid today only in Gulf War one in 1990. As the US embargoes of Iraq dating from 1991 to 2002 resulted in the deaths of another few million innocent Iraqis, especially children denied medicines. As Saddam lived in luxury for another 11 years.

Sadly Moonbeam, you are seeming exhibiting exactly same hypocrisy as Obama and his predecessor GWB. As the Moonbeam doctrine seeming states don't attack the powerful
like Russia or China, but its permissible to kill millions of people in weaker nations simply because they can't defend their rights.

 

[cirrrocco]

Question time : Iran already has missiles that can reach Israel
Iran also has chemical and biological weapons

Since god has commanded Iran's mullahs to kill as many jews as possible, why havent they launched a bunch of missiles at Israel and kill off a bunch of jews

Answer: Iran isnt as mad as we portray them to be

 

[cybrsage]

Question time : Iran already has missiles that can reach Israel
Iran also has chemical and biological weapons

Since god has commanded Iran's mullahs to kill as many jews as possible, why havent they launched a bunch of missiles at Israel and kill off a bunch of jews

Answer: Iran isnt as mad as we portray them to be

Exactly true. THey do not want nukes to attack Israel, they want them to instantly become invasion proof.

Most people do not realize the President of Iran has no control over the military. The Ruling Clerics do, and they lust after power, so they will never purposefully lose it by using a nuke offensively.

 

[Moonbeam]

As Moonbeam loses me at his first assumption, "M: He (presumably Obama) couldn't very well apply sanctions if it would precipitate a world crisis, could he?"

As I wonder Moonbeam, if you understand anything about world history. As history is full of various empires that over reached and found it only backfired on themselves as millions of innocent people also paid the price. Maybe Napoleon is a classic example as he took over Europe, and then figured conquering Russia would be child's play. As the Russian winter ended up killing the bulk of Napoleon's army. As Hitler tried the same stunt 135 years later with equal results. Fortified with the morality of ending communism.

Yet compare the US reaction when the USA became the only country to have nuclear weapons in 1945. Only to find the USSR became the second member of the Nuclear weapons club only a few years later. And when the USA tested the first hydrogen bomb, the USSR achieved parity only a year later. As the concept and terror of mutual assured destruction became the new rationality. Funny thing Moonbeam, no one rational advocated war with the USSR, as the Moonbeam doctrine seeming applies to only the militarily weak.

And funny thing, where is all the Moonbeam concerns regarding----Quote Moonbeam, "What is important is insuring that millions or billions of innocent people don't die because somebody is too insane to care."

Yet look at the US sanity track record in-------------

(a) In Vietnam. As we tried to oppose Vietnamese reunification. Box score, 58,000 US lives lost as 2 million South and North Vietnamese lives were lost. As the US caused the regional instability that resulted in the killing fields in Cambodia. Tell us again, Moonbeam, what did the US win in the process?

(b) In Iraq as that visionary Rumsfeld talked Saddam Hussein into be being our man in the mid-east, to smite our new found Iranian enemy. Where is all the Moonbeam concerns about the millions of Iranian lives lost as Iran lost the bulk of 3 generations of men trying to beat back the US inspired aggressions of Saddam Hussein? But by then ole Saddam had committed the unpardonable US sin of being a tin pot dictator that would not stay bought for double dealing with the Russians. Somewhat a distinction shared by Noreiga. At least millions of innocent of innocent Panamanians did not die in getting Noreiga. But when Saddam then invaded Kuwait in 1989, in the end resulted in the death of millions of totally innocent Iraqis and infrastructure damage still not repaid today only in Gulf War one in 1990. As the US embargoes of Iraq dating from 1991 to 2002 resulted in the deaths of another few million innocent Iraqis, especially children denied medicines. As Saddam lived in luxury for another 11 years.

Sadly Moonbeam, you are seeming exhibiting exactly same hypocrisy as Obama and his predecessor GWB. As the Moonbeam doctrine seeming states don't attack the powerful
like Russia or China, but its permissible to kill millions of people in weaker nations simply because they can't defend their rights.

Think of all the millions of murders there have likely been committed under the pretext of self defense. Surely you have learned the lessons of history and would never ever defend yourself. We are different in that regard. You carry your guilt and your history and I look at everything fresh.