Absolutely! This is why I get most of mine at gun shows and private sale. It is no business of the government what I have and how much.
Absolutely! This is why I get most of mine at gun shows and private sale. It is no business of the government what I have and how much.
Amused
Elite Member
- Apr 14, 2001
- 57,504
- 20,111
- 146
Exactly. What other right in The Bill of Rights do we have to register for? Could you imagine the outrage if we had to register to practice speech? Religion?
The right to keep and bear arms is a FUNDAMENTAL INALIENABLE right. Period. This means there can be no more restrictions on it than there are on ANY other right.
That is not quite as valid as you claim it is. My gun has saved my life (pure speculation on my part that the bad guy was gonna use the weapon he had pointed at me but he damn sure wasn't going to buy me a beer) and it never fired a shot. Matter of fact, most of the time that a citizen uses a gun to prevent a crime they do not fire a shot. Few, if any, of those numbers are included in your "70-30". Additionally a lot of those instances go unreported because the crime was prevented from occurring.
I can make a case that my guns save multiple lives during the aftermath of Katrina but it wasn't as "clear cut". We walked around with rifles and shotguns purposely visible and the bad guys simply went the other way. They had no intent on potentially getting shot and killed when there was plenty of unarmed people whose stuff they could take. Luckily I don't live in Orleans Parish where the police were stealing law abiding citizens only means of protection when they needed it most.
BTW, my gun has yet to kill any of my loved ones. I actually teach my children about guns, how to handle them, and what to do if they ever find one instead of just hiding them and hoping they don't find it.
The bottom line is your "70-30" number is extremely misleading and you know it.
Here are numbers from the CDC, the graphs are a little big
Suicide from 2002-2006, method used
http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/suicide/statistics/mechanism01.html
________________________________________________________________________
School associated violence
http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/youthviolence/schoolviolence/SAVD.html
From 1999 to 2006, most school-associated homicides included gunshot wounds (65 percent), stabbing or cutting (27 percent), and beatings (12 percent).2
_________________________________________________________________________
Ten Leading Causes of Death and Injury (Charts)
http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/LeadingCauses.html
Lets look at a couple of these charts, shall we
Chart 1
Homicide is a leading cause of death in this country. Remember this chart
Lets look at a another one
Chart 2
Guns are a leading source of death.
______________________________________________________________________
Now to put the nail in the coffin so to speak. The CDC tracked violence in 16 states in 2006. These 16 states, Alaska, Colorado, Georgia, Kentucky, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Mexico, North Carolina, Oklahoma, Oregon, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Utah, Virginia, and Wisconsin. I encourage you to read it.
Here is a link to the report
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/pdf/ss/ss5801.pdf
I am going to quote some of the things from the report. If you don't mind
Lets get right to the heart of the matter, gun ownership
And now the big one on
So on face value of all the homicides in 2006 in these 16 states 44-45% are commited by not some random criminal, but a family member or associate of some kind. The true number when the perp is known is a whopping 75% of the time a family member or associate. No reason for me not to believe that much of the unknown 40% would probably fall right in line with the known. 75%
And we know what the weapon of choice is, now don't we?
So that means approximately 50% of these homicides could have maybe been avoided. Maybe that gun made it to easy 7 out of the 10 times its used to settle these things today, to not use some other means. If you have a problem with the numbers, call the CDC, I am sure they would love to hear from you, lol. And this report doesn't include states like CA, NY, TX, LA, where gun related crime is high. So you still think we have no gun problem? So now tell me again how MORE GUNS are suppose to help?
Suicide from 2002-2006, method used
http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/suicide/statistics/mechanism01.html
________________________________________________________________________
School associated violence
http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/youthviolence/schoolviolence/SAVD.html
From 1999 to 2006, most school-associated homicides included gunshot wounds (65 percent), stabbing or cutting (27 percent), and beatings (12 percent).2
_________________________________________________________________________
Ten Leading Causes of Death and Injury (Charts)
http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/LeadingCauses.html
Lets look at a couple of these charts, shall we
Chart 1
Homicide is a leading cause of death in this country. Remember this chart
Lets look at a another one
Chart 2
Guns are a leading source of death.
______________________________________________________________________
Now to put the nail in the coffin so to speak. The CDC tracked violence in 16 states in 2006. These 16 states, Alaska, Colorado, Georgia, Kentucky, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Mexico, North Carolina, Oklahoma, Oregon, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Utah, Virginia, and Wisconsin. I encourage you to read it.
Here is a link to the report
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/pdf/ss/ss5801.pdf
I am going to quote some of the things from the report. If you don't mind
Lets get right to the heart of the matter, gun ownership
And now the big one on
Page 23 of the report
TABLE 10. Number and percentage* of homicides/legal-intervention deaths, by victims marital status and relationship to suspect
Of the relationship status in 40.7% of the homcides the relationship was unknown, but
Spouse/partner 10.2%
Parent 2%
Child 3.4%
Other intimate-partner involvement¶ 1.1%
¶ Death attributed to intimate-partnerrelated violence but not between the intimate partners themselves (e.g., when a child is killed by the mothers partner).
Other relative 3.3%
Acquaintance/Friend 15.7%
Other specified relationship 6.6%
More than one relationship mentioned 2.6%
So on face value of all the homicides in 2006 in these 16 states 44-45% are commited by not some random criminal, but a family member or associate of some kind. The true number when the perp is known is a whopping 75% of the time a family member or associate. No reason for me not to believe that much of the unknown 40% would probably fall right in line with the known. 75%
And we know what the weapon of choice is, now don't we?
So that means approximately 50% of these homicides could have maybe been avoided. Maybe that gun made it to easy 7 out of the 10 times its used to settle these things today, to not use some other means. If you have a problem with the numbers, call the CDC, I am sure they would love to hear from you, lol. And this report doesn't include states like CA, NY, TX, LA, where gun related crime is high. So you still think we have no gun problem? So now tell me again how MORE GUNS are suppose to help?
Classy, you still are completely ignoring everything said in this thread, and proceeding along with your "arguments" as if you are completely alone.
Arguments about suicide won't convince many people. Liberals like myself often support suicide and euthanasia. Where I live, the topic is called "right to die legislation," which I actually thought was a joke when I first heard it.
This is actually an argument against gun control. The reason for that is because schools are already considered gun free zones. You've just proven that making a school a gun free zone did absolutely nothing to curb gun violence. Even when nobody is allowed to carry a gun anywhere near a school, guns still account for 2/3 of school deaths.
I should clarify that I sure as shit do not want high school kids carrying guns. Teens are notorious for being mentally unstable due to hormonal changes. Teachers carrying guns wouldn't be as bad, but that's debatable. Teachers deciding to go on a rampage will bring a gun regardless of what the law says, but teachers carrying guns might able to stop any school shootings that are done by other teachers or students. Like I said before, Virginia Tech guy killed 33 people because he was the only person there with a gun.
This isn't really a shock. The same numbers show up with kidnappings. Children are usually kidnapped, molested, or abused by people they know.
Half of all murders being done by someone you know doesn't mean that someone you know is more dangerous when they have a gun. It just means that people you know are potentially dangerous. They might stab you and they might shoot you. I remember one case where an abused wife killed her drunk husband by setting his bed on fire after he passed out on it. It's not as if the gun makes you kill someone; you decide to kill someone first then you pick the gun because it's the easiest. If there are no guns, you might try something else like a kitchen knife or a baseball bat.
Terrible logic. Washington DC has very strict gun laws but it still has an unbelievably high murder rate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Washington,_D.C.#Gun_laws
What's explicitly stated in wiki is where those guns came from.
Translation: people who follow the law in Washington DC really don't own any guns. Piece of shit criminals who don't care about the law will still have guns. Maybe this is why people can't defend themselves and DC has incredibly high crime.
xj0hnx
Diamond Member
- Dec 18, 2007
- 9,262
- 3
- 76
This is a prime example of the loony left's thinking. Suicide? How is that a gun problem? It isn't, just like the rest of crime, guns do not make people kill themselves, or other people, the people do. The loony left wants to absolve everyone of any responsibility.
So now tell me again how MORE GUNS are suppose to help?
More guns in law-abiding citizens hands.
DucatiMonster: In case you didn't know these people are already armed. Those 52 shootings a few weeks ago didn't happen because guns laws were actually working in Chicago. Then again promoting common fucking sense would be against your political ethos.
M: Had you an ounce of common sense you would have immediately realized that your points here support universal gun ownership ban over a long expanse of time. Those guns wouldn't have been in the hands of criminals if they weren't stolen or purchased in the past. For those out there now offer a buy back by the state and the death penalty if found with a gun. Remember, if you got a gun, hanging isn't any fun.
DM: Instead dipshit liberals like yourself thrive on encouraging stupidity and victimhood behavior to push your flawed agendas at the expense of everyone else in this nation who has a fucking clue.
M: We already determined it's you who have no clue. I do not want guns banned for folk who don't live in gun violence areas. Guns aren't a problem but a form of protection there.
DM: Hence never addressing the root cause of the issues involved in all this mayhem.
M: And the root cause is?
DM: Instead blame it on the law abiding for wanting to exercise their right as guaranteed under the 2nd amendment.
M: Naturally, those who hate themselves feel that others blame them for things, because they blame themselves unconsciously and project that blame on others. Those of us in the know don't play the blame game. We don't even want to take the rights of those who live in areas where those rights are useful and not a danger to others.
DM: Then assholes like yourself go on to reward these fucktards by handing out "FREEWELFAREMONIE" for not doing anything with their lives. I got to admit you liberals are great at creating codependent voters and steering them away from ever approaching the mindset of being independent, reflective of oneself and self reliant instead of depending on government and its hand outs. Hell what better way to keep people enslaved then to have them act like total infants and then reward them with more social welfare every time they vote dem.
M: So true, but the conservative answer is to let people die. Both you and liberals are assholes, actually simply unconscious robots driven by program, who are asleep to the truth. The proper answer, known to the wise folk like me, who have integrated opposites in higher understanding, is to help people by helping them to help themselves and never give them anything for free.
Everything you do to help people must appear to them as if they are doing it themselves, because nobody ever values what is given for free. Just so will you now pay not the slightest attention to this deep truth, because you have not paid in pain what I paid to acquire it.
But you aren't the asshole you project on me. You aren't worthless like you feel. You are just asleep and afraid to feel what you feel. It can't be different because you have lived so long in the dark.
M: Had you an ounce of common sense you would have immediately realized that your points here support universal gun ownership ban over a long expanse of time. Those guns wouldn't have been in the hands of criminals if they weren't stolen or purchased in the past. For those out there now offer a buy back by the state and the death penalty if found with a gun. Remember, if you got a gun, hanging isn't any fun.
DM: Instead dipshit liberals like yourself thrive on encouraging stupidity and victimhood behavior to push your flawed agendas at the expense of everyone else in this nation who has a fucking clue.
M: We already determined it's you who have no clue. I do not want guns banned for folk who don't live in gun violence areas. Guns aren't a problem but a form of protection there.
DM: Hence never addressing the root cause of the issues involved in all this mayhem.
M: And the root cause is?
DM: Instead blame it on the law abiding for wanting to exercise their right as guaranteed under the 2nd amendment.
M: Naturally, those who hate themselves feel that others blame them for things, because they blame themselves unconsciously and project that blame on others. Those of us in the know don't play the blame game. We don't even want to take the rights of those who live in areas where those rights are useful and not a danger to others.
DM: Then assholes like yourself go on to reward these fucktards by handing out "FREEWELFAREMONIE" for not doing anything with their lives. I got to admit you liberals are great at creating codependent voters and steering them away from ever approaching the mindset of being independent, reflective of oneself and self reliant instead of depending on government and its hand outs. Hell what better way to keep people enslaved then to have them act like total infants and then reward them with more social welfare every time they vote dem.
M: So true, but the conservative answer is to let people die. Both you and liberals are assholes, actually simply unconscious robots driven by program, who are asleep to the truth. The proper answer, known to the wise folk like me, who have integrated opposites in higher understanding, is to help people by helping them to help themselves and never give them anything for free.
Everything you do to help people must appear to them as if they are doing it themselves, because nobody ever values what is given for free. Just so will you now pay not the slightest attention to this deep truth, because you have not paid in pain what I paid to acquire it.
But you aren't the asshole you project on me. You aren't worthless like you feel. You are just asleep and afraid to feel what you feel. It can't be different because you have lived so long in the dark.
LOL
Those CDC numbers you can't just bs away, huh. Maybe you are not reading. I have said that the legality of gun ownership should not be questioned. Its legal. What I have said is, the numbers don't support gun ownership as being an effective crime deterrent and these numbers totally prove that out. Gun ownership is legal, but all the other bs stuff I see getting slung here is just fodder. Now I am waiting for nicolette and the gang to slam the CDC.
xj0hnx
Diamond Member
- Dec 18, 2007
- 9,262
- 3
- 76
The insane loony left ignoring the fact that their meccas of liberal social engineering such as NY, Chicago, DC, LA, all have the strictest gun laws, and the HIGHEST crimes. The liberal social experiment is a failure of epic proportions.
Shawn, lol, you are scrambling babe. hehehehehehe You can talk about kidnapping and all the other stuff, those CDC numbers just own.
Tell me again, how more guns are suppose to help.I haven't bullshitted anything in this thread; in fact, I've barely touched it. nick, john, amused, shawn, and others are doing enough to destroy you; and you're feeding them more ammunition to use against you. It disgusts me that you can vote; but then again, that's a right - although rights are something that don't bother you much.
Do you want me to own you again? Some of the worst states for gun related violence are Red States. Now just be quiet, the CDC numbers just jacked a few fools here. Where is nicolette
Don't get mad, hehehehehe. Its okay. I don't work for the CDC. I just thought I would post some facts, rather than fluff.
HumblePie
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2000
- 14,665
- 440
- 126
Classy, your numbers mean jack and shit.
Wow, 51% of all suicides are caused by guns? Exactly what are you trying to imply here? That the mere fact of owning, holding, or merely even looking at a gun is going to induce thoughts of suicide in people? Get a fucking clue. Guns are the tool not the problem. If you are concerned about suicide and suicide rates banning guns is not the answer to stop suicides. I have never seen such a horrible attempt at causation through correlation in many years. And yet I see it now.
Banning guns does NOT stop suicides. Guns in no single way contribute to suicides. Suicides happened before guns were invented. Stop using that statistic as it is about as useful as tits on a bull.
Your next argument about family members being recipients of violence through guns is just as asinine.
You are more likely to be a victim of a crime from someone you know versus a being a random statistic from a random crime of violence. This is an immutable fact that spans all of human history. Yes, there is a chance to be a random victim of random violence, but it is far more likely to be a victim of a crime from someone you know. Guns have never changed that statistic. They never will. Before guns were invented THIS WAS A KNOWN TRUTH. Again, correlation being assigned causality.
Stop, just stop classy.
Wow, 51% of all suicides are caused by guns? Exactly what are you trying to imply here? That the mere fact of owning, holding, or merely even looking at a gun is going to induce thoughts of suicide in people? Get a fucking clue. Guns are the tool not the problem. If you are concerned about suicide and suicide rates banning guns is not the answer to stop suicides. I have never seen such a horrible attempt at causation through correlation in many years. And yet I see it now.
Banning guns does NOT stop suicides. Guns in no single way contribute to suicides. Suicides happened before guns were invented. Stop using that statistic as it is about as useful as tits on a bull.
Your next argument about family members being recipients of violence through guns is just as asinine.
You are more likely to be a victim of a crime from someone you know versus a being a random statistic from a random crime of violence. This is an immutable fact that spans all of human history. Yes, there is a chance to be a random victim of random violence, but it is far more likely to be a victim of a crime from someone you know. Guns have never changed that statistic. They never will. Before guns were invented THIS WAS A KNOWN TRUTH. Again, correlation being assigned causality.
Stop, just stop classy.
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How loony do you have to be to say what does or doesn't cause suicide. The only people who know are dead. Of course we will expect that you, as a total nut case, will now suggest folk adopt personal responsibility. Where were you when the responsible thing to do was to think and you failed.
nick1985
Lifer
- Dec 29, 2002
- 27,153
- 6
- 81
Where is nicolette
Ive had enough owning you. Your CDC numbers say a lot of suicides are from firearms.
And?
Japan has more suicides than the US and have a ban on guns. What does that say to you? To me it says its not guns that are the problem. But you can spin it any way you see fit (which you are).
Keep ignoring it classy. If you ignore it long enough it will go away
*edit*
Hey did you ever have an explanation after you made your ignorant claims of lower crime in Canada and I fucking owned you? I'm still waiting to hear back from you on that one
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Nah, those are just the collecting grounds of hicks and backward morons fleeing rural areas that don't have any jobs. They come to the inner cities to share the puss of backward thinking, no?
Those are the CDC numbers, not mine, you can call them though. As far as suicides is concerned, maybe if they didn't have a gun? You think its possible. Your last paragraph is my argument. But you guys have argued that buying all the guns for home protection is for the criminal breaking in your house. I have said and posted numbers to back up what I said, you will probably shoot someone you know. And don't gloss over the part of the report I posted about the circumstances. You are more likely to kill your best friend over an argument with a gun, then shoot some criminal. But hey I guess the CDC is just lying............
nick1985
Lifer
- Dec 29, 2002
- 27,153
- 6
- 81
Post #72
They have a complete ban, yet their suicide rate is many times that of the US.
I thought I had propery covered my bases for your future argument. I guess I didnt get through your thick skull.
Ive had enough owning you. Your CDC numbers say a lot of suicides are from firearms.
And?
Japan has more suicides than the US and have a ban on guns. What does that say to you? To me it says its not guns that are the problem. But you can spin it any way you see fit (which you are).
Keep ignoring it classy. If you ignore it long enough it will go away
*edit*
Hey did you ever have an explanation after you made your ignorant claims of lower crime in Canada and I fucking owned you? I'm still waiting to hear back from you on that one
LOL
Don't deflect and try to ignore the facts. Lets talk about those other numbers. Lets talk about the homicides. The graphs and the report just smoked all the bs you been slinging. Its legal to own a gun, but that should be you only argument.
nick1985
Lifer
- Dec 29, 2002
- 27,153
- 6
- 81
Odd, you say that, especially since nearly every post I've made in this thread includes facts from reputable sources. I would think that most neutral 3rd parties that read this thread would think you are the one that got owned hard. But keep thinking you won the debate, its good for your mental state of mind.
I don't care about Japan, Switzerland, or any other country. The CDC numbers show slearly gun ownership ain't no blessing. Guns are one of the leading causes of death. But its ok, I am sure you will email the CDC and tell them they don't know how to do their job. hehehehehehehehe
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