New Chicago Handgun Law was approved

[HumblePie]

n: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

M: Anybody with any linguistic ability reads well organized militia there, not personal ownership. Of course I do keep toy soldiers with MY guns, just for that reason. And they are all laid out in formation.

As pointed out in the dailykos article. Here is the excerp of the US Militia code as drafted by our founding fathers:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/10/311.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_%28United_States)

US Militia Code: what exactly DEFINES the term militia in terms of US law.

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

There are other classes such as reserved and what not. But it basically means everyone, every single person is technically part of a militia. Period.


So if you want to read the Second Amendment as only militia and units like those are meant to bear arms, which is seems many anti-gun numbnuts typically do, they fail to know the law about what dictates a militia. It is basically EVERYONE. By law, everyone has the right to bear arms, is part of a militia, and that right shall not be infringed. It's an open and shut case. The Supreme Court has struck it down and all the whining and crying in the world won't change that. Don't like it? Too bad, move to another country.

 

[JockoJohnson]

What are you a robot? I mentioned earlier that the decision was 5 to 4 on a strictly religious basis, a religion of political ideology. A majority of one asshole of a nation of 300 million went one way on a vote when some other asshole, had he been on the court, would have swung it the other way. What kind of sacred deference does such a ruling inspire. It will be overturned one day, in all likelihood, as the moronic culture of the South fades away and folk in the cities take over.

There is nothing fundamental about owning a gun any more than a bow and arrow or a spear of a hand ax. The right to self defense is natural, but self defense isn't owning a gun. Felons can't own guns, so it isn't a right that is fundamental. But every felon has the right to self defense. You religious wankers just don't think too good, your heads have been in dark places too long.

What is so scary is that the vote was 5-4. It shouldn't have even been that close. And who says the repubs/right/conservatives are all activist judges. It's those 4 assholes that decided the other way that are the activists.

 

[HumblePie]

Also classy, sorry to hear someone you know was accidentally killed by a gun. Oh well, shit happens. Tragic accidents happen everyday and most of them do not involve guns. It's Darwinism at work. Whether it' the curious kid sneaking into the parents bedroom to find a gun, or the curious kid wondering what Windex tastes like, or the curious kid that wonders what will happen when they stick a fork in an electrical outlet, or the kid chasing after a ball they kicked into the street in the middle of heavy traffic.

It's all sad, it's all tragic, and it's all boohoo. However, SHIT HAPPENS. You do not fix the situation by removing everything that can possibly kill the children. Unless you are prepared to go through life living in a bubble in a rubber room eating and drinking only things which have all bacteria and virus removed. If this is not your plan for life then be prepared like the rest of us to live life how it was meant to be. There are dangers in the world, and the trick minimize what you can how you can. It's easy enough to prevent the curious kid from finding the gun in his parents bedroom. LOCK IT UP. Being without a gun when an intruder enters your home or when you are being mugged or stalked is NOT minimizing risk in life. It is increasing it. Don't do the stupid thing.

 

[xj0hnx]

nobodyknows: I guess you expect 80 year old people to chase off those 18 year old punks mugging them with their cane.

M: The number of muggings committed by 18 year olds with canes is zero as far as I can tell.

Reading comprehension not your strong suit I see. He asked if the 80 year old's should chase off muggers with their (the 80 year old's) cane, not that they are being mugged by 18 year old criminals using canes.

n: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

M: Anybody with any linguistic ability reads well organized militia there, not personal ownership. Of course I do keep toy soldiers with MY guns, just for that reason. And they are all laid out in formation.

Anybody with any linguistic ability reads "the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed" The people are the ones that comprised the militias, normal, everyday people like your grocer, your dentist, your neighbor ...even you.

 

[misle]

From the Kos no less!

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/7/4/881431/-Why-liberals-should-love-the-Second-Amendment

Wow, very good article. I'll will pass it along to a few friends.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

From the Kos no less!

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/7/4/881431/-Why-liberals-should-love-the-Second-Amendment

Yes, good article. I hope a certain four supreme court judges read this. And every other "liberal."

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Reading comprehension not your strong suit I see. He asked if the 80 year old's should chase off muggers with their (the 80 year old's) cane, not that they are being mugged by 18 year old criminals using canes.



Anybody with any linguistic ability reads "the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed" The people are the ones that comprised the militias, normal, everyday people like your grocer, your dentist, your neighbor ...even you.

I agree but....

Let me also add that the People are also the ones who the founding fathers realized should have the right to own and bear arms in case they were to face another tyrannical state militia ( the British army for example) in any future conflicts. It was the the People after all who united together to throw out the previous state militia in the war of independence and they did so using the firearms they at their disposal which they personally owned.

Moonbeam clearly is trying to use (in a horrible clumsy manner) a Clintonian style method of wordsmithing to attempt to ignore and/or highlight the parts "he feels" are relevant to his points of view on the issue but which are taken out of historical and literal context when reading the 2nd amendment.

 

[Zargon]

as pointed out in the dailykos article. Here is the excerp of the us militia code as drafted by our founding fathers:
........

/thread.

 

[Moonbeam]

As pointed out in the dailykos article. Here is the excerp of the US Militia code as drafted by our founding fathers:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/10/311.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_(United_States)

US Militia Code: what exactly DEFINES the term militia in terms of US law.



There are other classes such as reserved and what not. But it basically means everyone, every single person is technically part of a militia. Period.


So if you want to read the Second Amendment as only militia and units like those are meant to bear arms, which is seems many anti-gun numbnuts typically do, they fail to know the law about what dictates a militia. It is basically EVERYONE. By law, everyone has the right to bear arms, is part of a militia, and that right shall not be infringed. It's an open and shut case. The Supreme Court has struck it down and all the whining and crying in the world won't change that. Don't like it? Too bad, move to another country.

As an English speaker, when I want to say that everybody has a right to a gun, I say it. I don't say the militia has a right to bear arms. You gun nut cases think that your fancy scholarship and obfuscation can change what is clear and direct in works from a sow's ear into a silk purse, think again. All interpretations are motivated. A militia is a militia, not We the People. You think the founding fathers didn't know how to say we the people. Those psychopaths had a deep inner fear of the mob and democracy and for the good reason that that is what they were, a bunch of revolutionary discontents who didn't like other folk far away making laws for them.

And from here on out in this thread you can address me as General Moonbeam. When the sun cools off I'm gonna throw my wok on my head, grab my flag and a garbage can and parade up and down my street drafting and ordering my neighbors to report for duty an my house to pull the weeds.

 

[Moonbeam]

xj0hnx; Reading comprehension not your strong suit I see. He asked if the 80 year old's should chase off muggers with their (the 80 year old's) cane, not that they are being mugged by 18 year old criminals using canes.

No he didn't. He said exactly what I said he said. Meaning something and sayin it are two different things.



x: Anybody with any linguistic ability reads "the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed" The people are the ones that comprised the militias, normal, everyday people like your grocer, your dentist, your neighbor ...even you.

M: Right, you keep on telling yourself that. Ask you mommy if a nursery school is full of militia members or does it refer to folk who are military?

 

[bfdd]

It doesn't say the militia has the right to bear arms, it clearly says the people. Lets not forget Moonbeam the English we speak today in the USA is drastically different than what was spoken in the USA 200 years ago. Hell the English used today in California is different than the English used in Massachusetts. Your argument sucks.

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

 

[Moonbeam]

It doesn't say the militia has the right to bear arms, it clearly says the people. Lets not forget Moonbeam the English we speak today in the USA is drastically different than what was spoken in the USA 200 years ago. Hell the English used today in California is different than the English used in Massachusetts. Your argument sucks.

Hohenlohe, thanks. Let me assure you then, that when you read language that is 200 years old you haven't the faintest idea what you are reading. What has happened in 200 hundred years is that gun nuts and gun religion have sought to pervert the meaning of words. The founding fathers, never fools to give too much freedom to the lower masses, would turn over in their graves at all the deaths the distortion of their language has created. The most assuredly meant that only an organized military, under civilian authority should ever have guns. The idea that some hop head on crack can go down and buy gun to kill people for drugs would have been an anathema.

 

[bfdd]

Hohenlohe, thanks. Let me assure you then, that when you read language that is 200 years old you haven't the faintest idea what you are reading. What has happened in 200 hundred years is that gun nuts and gun religion have sought to pervert the meaning of words. The founding fathers, never fools to give too much freedom to the lower masses, would turn over in their graves at all the deaths the distortion of their language has created. The most assuredly meant that only an organized military, under civilian authority should ever have guns. The idea that some hop head on crack can go down and buy gun to kill people for drugs would have been an anathema.

The country was founded on civilians with guns. Smashed.

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

 

[nick1985]

The most assuredly meant that only an organized military, under civilian authority should ever have guns.

Who are you referring to? The founders?


"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms. . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." -- Jefferson's "Commonplace Book," 1774-1776, quoting from On Crimes and Punishment, by criminologist Cesare Beccaria, 1764

-- Thomas Jefferson


The Constitution preserves "the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation. . . (where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." -- The Federalist, No. 46

- James Madison


"f circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude, that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their rights and those of their fellow citizens." -- The Federalist, No. 29

- Alexander Hamilton


"[A]rms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. . . Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them." -- Thoughts On Defensive War, 1775

- Thomas Paine


"The great object is, that every man be armed."

- Patrick Henry

 

[Moonbeam]

The country was founded on civilians with guns. Smashed.

As I pointed out above, disgruntled revolutionaries who knew first hand how dangerous they were to authority. Such folk close that door behind them when they walk through.

 

[Zargon]

x: Anybody with any linguistic ability reads "the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed" The people are the ones that comprised the militias, normal, everyday people like your grocer, your dentist, your neighbor ...even you.

M: Right, you keep on telling yourself that. Ask you mommy if a nursery school is full of militia members or does it refer to folk who are military?

nursery schools arent full of able bodied men over the age of 17 like the us military code for a militia dictates

its like you don't even read it because it makes you wrong, so you shove your head in and sand and scream about little kids.

Hohenlohe, thanks. Let me assure you then, that when you read language that is 200 years old you haven't the faintest idea what you are reading. What has happened in 200 hundred years is that gun nuts and gun religion have sought to pervert the meaning of words. The founding fathers, never fools to give too much freedom to the lower masses, would turn over in their graves at all the deaths the distortion of their language has created. The most assuredly meant that only an organized military, under civilian authority should ever have guns. The idea that some hop head on crack can go down and buy gun to kill people for drugs would have been an anathema.

seems to me you are the one perverting the words.

for the bold: LOL you nutjob, thats what they were fighting against! why would they do that? thats not any different than what england did to control them in the first place!

what hop head on crack can go to a gun store and buy a handgun? and where does this happen? its so absurd to make the claim that some crackhead could do that legally how would this crackhead pass a background check? how did he get a license to own a firearm being a crackhead?(you have to pass a state police background check to get that where I live). where would he get the money?
LOL don't answer that its all rhetorical!

As I pointed out above, disgruntled revolutionaries who knew first hand how dangerous they were to authority. Such folk close that door behind them when they walk through.

not when their goal was to create a government that wasnt a bloated tyranical overbearing POS. the more of you we have the further they were from getting it right!

 

[ShawnD1]

M: Right, you keep on telling yourself that. Ask you mommy if a nursery school is full of militia members or does it refer to folk who are military?

Are you aware that English words sometimes have definitions?

http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=militia

1). reserves (civilians trained as soldiers but not part of the regular army)
2). the entire body of physically fit civilians eligible by law for military service

This means every man between 18 and 45 is part of the militia. Now that women are in the military, women are part of the militia as well.

 

[bfdd]

As I pointed out above, disgruntled revolutionaries who knew first hand how dangerous they were to authority. Such folk close that door behind them when they walk through.

Looks like you're projecting Moonie.

 

[Moonbeam]

nick; Who are you referring to? The founders?


"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms. . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." -- Jefferson's "Commonplace Book," 1774-1776, quoting from On Crimes and Punishment, by criminologist Cesare Beccaria, 1764

-- Thomas Jefferson

M: In todays English this means that if you don't have a well regulated police force down the street you will have to rely on yourself because a well regulated and visible police force is as an attacker has greater confidence in attacking an armed man than he does attacking a trained police force.


n: The Constitution preserves "the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation. . . (where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." -- The Federalist, No. 46

- James Madison

M: This now means a voluntary army is the best of all possible worlds.


n: "f circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude, that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their rights and those of their fellow citizens." -- The Federalist, No. 29

- Alexander Hamilton

M: This is as obsolite as the notion that an army of any magnitude isn't exactly what we already have is spades.


n: "[A]rms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. . . Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them." -- Thoughts On Defensive War, 1775

- Thomas Paine

M: It would have made it alot harder to slaughter millions of lawless Indians without all those guns, eh? But then, they didn't know what property was, did they.

n: "The great object is, that every man be armed."

- Patrick Henry[/QUOTE]

M: Most are born with two.

 

[JohnnyGage]

Posted for Moonie.....for the third time!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GNu7ldL1LM

 

[bfdd]

Moonbeam wow you're so off it's actually kind of sad to think you might actually believe that shit.

 

[nick1985]

Here are some more for ya Moonie

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

-Thomas Jefferson


"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms..disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one." - Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria, Criminologist in 1764. That was 230 years ago.

-Thomas Jefferson


The constitutions of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; that they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property and freedom of the press."


--- Thomas Jefferson

 

[bfdd]

It's kind of funny seeing Moonbeam deny that the 2nd amendment protects our right to own firearms when it's pretty clear Thomas Jefferson and other founders really pushed the idea of an armed populace with the ability to stand up to governmental tyranny.

 

[nick1985]

It's kind of funny seeing Moonbeam deny that the 2nd amendment protects our right to own firearms when it's pretty clear Thomas Jefferson and other founders really pushed the idea of an armed populace with the ability to stand up to governmental tyranny.

The founders didnt know what they were talking about, and neither does the Supreme Court.

Moonbeam is here to rescue us from their misconceptions.

 

[BoberFett]

People like Moonbeam are scary enough that I feel I need weapons to protect myself from their particular brand of crazy.