Netherlands proposes banning gas, diesel car sales by 2025

[NAC4EV]

Dutch Labour party PvdA is pressing for the banning of sales of all petrol and diesel cars in the Netherlands from 2025.
The proposal has been met with support from the country’s lower houses of Parliament and could mean that only alternatively fuelled vehicles – such as electric cars – could be sold in the market nine years from now.
European leaders have been talking about such a ban for many years - insiders have suggested Paris will be the first to implement a zero-emissions-vehicle-only zone within its boundaries – but if it were introduced, the Dutch policy would come as the first complete ban on combustion-engined vehicles.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Although the Netherlands is not a big country, i doubt this is going to happen as you describe.

There is an agreement between different parties that a ban on sales of diesel en gas vehicles is possible from 2035. But the PVDA wants it sooner, 2025. As usual, the left parties all want it to happen. They all want to be the sweetest boy in the class when it comes to the environment. I doubt a ban will happen even in 2035. What it really says is not that all gasoline and diesel vehicles are forbidden, it means that they are being phased out. probably this means(it is the usual way) the selling (or buying through higher taxes) of new gasoline or diesel vehicles will be discouraged.
I guess they hope for better battery tech in 9 to 19 years from now.

There is no infrastructure to power all electrical vehicles that should replace all gasoline and diesel engines based vehicles. Over 9 years, there is still not enough electricity available to power all vehicles if they would all suddenly be electric.
The left parties also all want to close down all power plants as soon as possible. Especially the coal fueled power plants. But they also do not want nuclear power plants. That leaves wind and solar and the other option, to buy electricity from other countries (Which most likely is generated with coal fueled power plants or nuclear power plants, yeah typical left thinking). It will not be long, before the Netherlands runs out of natural gas. For decades, every government spending is payed by selling natural gas and taxes. I am worried for the future.
The left always has bright ideas. But who is going to pay for it...

I should note that our right is kind of US midway/left and our left is more like ultra left in the US.

 

[Rakehellion]

When there are no gasoline cars, what will people drive?

 

[William Gaatjes]

What i cannot find out if the total number of electrical vehicles present in the Netherlands are a combination of electric only and hybrid vehicles or just electrical vehicles only.
I believe that it is electric only and hybrids but i have not enough information about it.

 

[William Gaatjes]

When there are no gasoline cars, what will people drive?

It is not going to be something that will happen overnight. Phasing out is bound to happen in the future. The left parties just want to be first again to show everybody how great they are.
It will happen in time, just as in all other countries. According to all the doom scenario's a few years ago, around 2050 we should be seeing a decrease in oil production.

 

[William Gaatjes]

We already have a parking problem in the big cities.
There are nowhere near enough charging points for electrical cars.
And i still have to see how people with less spending money can afford electrical vehicles.

I am delighted to see that we go to an all electric vehicles future. But i like to see it done properly. And the lefties as always are a bit extreme in their views.

 

[KMFJD]

I can see it for passanger vehicals MAYBE....

 

[William Gaatjes]

The whole issue is to have enough electricity. Would somebody want to do the math how much kwh energy is stored in the battery of a Tesla for example. If we would take that number for about 8 million vehicles present in the Netherlands. Half of those need charging... That is a heavy load on the electrical grid next to the already needed electricity for all the house holds.

Belgium has several nuclear powerplants, but they are old and must be replaced. In the Netherlands, the coal fueled power plants will be shutdown in the future.
I think it would be best if the Netherlands and Belgium would work together for several Generation 5 reactors that would be shared between the countries. Split the costs, and when wind and solar is enough on good days, the electricity can be exported and sold if there is a surplus of electricity.

But that is one of my wishful thinking ideas.

 

[William Gaatjes]

For the interested :

Any legislative proposal that survives the democratic voting in the house of representatives (tweede kamer or second room) must be send to the senate (Eerste kamer or first room) for approval, where there is another voting . It is not as if one political party decides something that it will happen right away.

 

[Mark R]

There are about 1e11 car-km driven per year in NL. Assuming about 7 km/kWh that works out at 15 TWh of electricity demand.

NL currently uses about 115 TWh of electricity per year, so passenger car use would increase this by just under 15%

If the bulk of charging could be done at off-peak times, then this could be provided by about 6 GW of additional generation capacity. Currently NL has about 28 GW of generation capacity, with an additional 3 GW of mothballed capacity and about 3.5 GW of international electrical grid interconnects.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Thank you, i will try to find those numbers. Do you have a source ?

Another issue is that there is a large amount of tax on gasoline and diesel.
When there is no more gasoline and diesel, that would mean there is no more tax. What will happen is that electricity prices will go up and that the tax on that electricity will also rise to match the levels that are common with gasoline and diesel.
This is not a real issue, it has been happening like this for years. First taxes are lowered to stimulate an object. When everybody has that object and is dependent on it, raise the taxes again.

 

[William Gaatjes]

I took a larger car as example :
The volvo c30 electric. 17.5kwh/100km - 0.175kwh/km.

Estimated 15000 km/year driving.
8 million vehicles.

175wh * 15000 * 8000000 = 21TWh / year.
Worst case scenario electricity needed :
Assume 95% efficiency for charging is 22,5Twh / year.
I am at ~18% increase in electricity usage for a worst case scenario.

In 2013 a total of ~122 TWh of electricity was used in the Netherlands.
According to the website i found, ~11.8 Twh was generated by green electricity sources over 2013. ~99Twh of electricity was generated by conventional plants. The remaining was imported from Germany and Norway.
It should be possible then.

Edit:
Changed the value from 1218Twh to 122TWh. This seems to be in line with the electricity usage of several other years.

 

[Imp]

I was going to wish them a lulz good luck because of how small they are, but dang, population is almost 17 million. Meanwhile, Canada has double the population but... 100 times the land mass?

Could work, but I don't see how they're going to stop the rest of the EU vehicles passing through.

Looks like you may be able to cross the country on one charge with a Tesla?

 

[OutHouse]

pie in the sky feel good bullshit that will never happen

 

[ALIVE]

I was going to wish them a lulz good luck because of how small they are, but dang, population is almost 17 million. Meanwhile, Canada has double the population but... 100 times the land mass?

Could work, but I don't see how they're going to stop the rest of the EU vehicles passing through.

Looks like you may be able to cross the country on one charge with a Tesla?

hmm lets see no petrol station in netherlands??
that will keep them away
they will stop them in the frontiers
it is the same with trucks

in Switzerland for example all trucks need to be boarded and ship by train no truck is allowed in the highways. truck delivery is allowed for the final delivery and for distances less than 20km

you are the country you can do what ever you what
1 day drugs was legal in usa
then they banned them

for crying out loud now is usa the government can help you for interrogation for as long they want, with no charges, and you not having a lawyer, and also be tortured is now allowed
thanks patriot act
and you discus about cars??

in 5 minute usa deleted history of centuries
the aristocrats finally killed the magna carta

congratulations for sending your country to the dark ages again

 

[William Gaatjes]

That is strange, The site i found mentioned 1218 Twh over 2013.
But i looked up several pdf with yearly electricity usage from different years and it is always a power of 10 less. I think that the site that i found has a seperator at the wrong place.

 

[OutHouse]

hmm lets see no petrol station in netherlands??
that will keep them away
they will stop them in the frontiers
it is the same with trucks

in Switzerland for example all trucks need to be boarded and ship by train no truck is allowed in the highways. truck delivery is allowed for the final delivery and for distances less than 20km

you are the country you can do what ever you what
1 day drugs was legal in usa
then they banned them

for crying out loud now is usa the government can help you for interrogation for as long they want, with no charges, and you not having a lawyer, and also be tortured is now allowed
thanks patriot act
and you discus about cars??

in 5 minute usa deleted history of centuries
the aristocrats finally killed the magna carta

congratulations for sending your country to the dark ages again

holy shit are you a fucking wanker? nothing you posted is true.

no Lorries can transverse switzerland and has to be put on a train? lol where did you hear that bullshit. do you like making up fairy tales to sound important? lol

there are trains for truck in Switzerland but its not mandatory and drivers use it to get past the night time and holiday driving ban, plus its faster. but its not a ban on trucks you moron.

torture in the USA is legal? The USA killed the Magna Carta??? lol stfu.

 

[balloonshark]

When there are no gasoline cars, what will people drive?

When there is no gasoline, what will people drive? :hmm:

 

[lxskllr]

When there is no gasoline, what will people drive? :hmm:

I want a camel. Either that, or a donkey. I'd never get tired of telling people I was sitting on my ass when they ask what I'm doing.

 

[Argo]

I think it will absolutely happen. Electric car is simply a superior product, and not because of environmental concerns. It doesn't require running to a gas station every week, it's cheaper to operate and maintain, and it drives quieter. The price will eventually reach a point where those factors will dominate car buyers decisions.

Will it happen by 2025? Who knows. But of course the politicians never trust the market to do its job, and need to create artificial and arbitrary laws like this one, risking unintended consequences.

 

[Imp]

I want a camel. Either that, or a donkey. I'd never get tired of telling people I was sitting on my ass when they ask what I'm doing.

Go with the donkey, my good man. The camel will be a pain to park, and they apparently have an odor that scares horses -- according to Total War games at least.

 

[zerocool84]

I think it will absolutely happen. Electric car is simply a superior product, and not because of environmental concerns. It doesn't require running to a gas station every week, it's cheaper to operate and maintain, and it drives quieter. The price will eventually reach a point where those factors will dominate car buyers decisions.

Will it happen by 2025? Who knows. But of course the politicians never trust the market to do its job, and need to create artificial and arbitrary laws like this one, risking unintended consequences.

Yup electric is superior because it doesn't require running to a charging station all the time either. They just magically charge themselves.

 

[Argo]

Yup electric is superior because it doesn't require running to a charging station all the time either. They just magically charge themselves.

Most people can charge their cars at home. Or at their place of work.

 

[natto fire]

Yup electric is superior because it doesn't require running to a charging station all the time either. They just magically charge themselves.

I am an electrician, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. That said, the aging grid in the states is still superior to tanker trucks driving all over the place to replenish gas stations. If we could get the greentards out of the way and revamp the grid to bring in more nuclear generation and shut down coal plants, electrons might change your mind as the energy of the future.

The sticking point of course is storage, as petrol fuels have that locked down. Batteries are just not there to even make a logical comparison to the most primitive diesel storage tank, the petro-fuel is remarkably dense.

I am a broken record, but I still think electric has an advantage in that it's generation methods are much more diverse than petroleum ways. You could even charge your car by pedaling a bicycle. Of course, the 70 watt human output would take a long time to recoup a drive around the block, but the point is you could easily transfer one fuel to another.

 

[Subyman]

I think this is a suitable idea for their specific country and an interesting proof of concept for the rest of the world. I do believe we are moving toward electric powered cars. The only thing that could stop that progress is a closed loop hydrocarbon model such as hydrocarbon producing algae or bacteria. In that case, carbon is sequestered from the atmosphere to create the fuel, then burned and released back into the atmosphere. There is no net change in atmospheric carbon in that case and no reason not to use "renewable hydrocarbons". This assumes the algae and bacteria do not produce harmful side effects.