Need a new daily driver <$25k

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Dec 26, 2007
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Looks like I can't find dealers near home or work that have the WRX in stock right now. Same goes for the Genesis coupe. Maybe they are waiting on the 2013's to arrive? Eh... very annoying at any rate. I've expanded the search to 30 minute drive from work and home (which are 30 minutes from one another), so an hour from home address and nothing for either the Genesis or WRX.*

However, I do have a BRZ and Jetta GLI test drive scheduled for tonight after work.

*The Genesis coupe in manual. I've found them in auto or the sedan, which doesn't help
 
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Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
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Also, since I'll be there already... I'm going to throw in the GTi...

GTI is very nice inside and apparently responds well to mods, not super fast stock though.

Don't forget a Mustang V6 w/6MT, do me the great justice of giving it a chance :) You may find that it's shockingly good for the $. Or you may hate it, who knows. But anyone who even likes a little bit of power and appreciates a good $/go-fast equation should feel that sucker to redline in the first 2 gears.
 
Dec 26, 2007
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GTI is very nice inside and apparently responds well to mods, not super fast stock though.

Don't forget a Mustang V6 w/6MT, do me the great justice of giving it a chance :) You may find that it's shockingly good for the $. Or you may hate it, who knows. But anyone who even likes a little bit of power and appreciates a good $/go-fast equation should feel that sucker to redline in the first 2 gears.

Next time I hit up a Ford dealer for the next ST test I'll add in a Mustang. Might as well, since the point is for me to test drive as many as I can.
 

amyklai

Senior member
Nov 11, 2008
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Try to get a slightly used 320d. Great fuel economy (>40mpg), still plenty fun to ride.
 
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Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
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Try to get a slightly used 320d. Great fuel economy (>40mpg), still plenty fun to ride.

There aren't any in the US, as they have yet to sell the 320d here.

It also won't return 40mpg in combined MPG when using US gallons and US EPA testing, which is much more hardcore than Euro fuel economy testing.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
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http://www.caranddriver.com/feature...h-about-epa-city-highway-mpg-estimates-page-3

"One last fuel-economy tidbit: Don&#8217;t even think of comparing EPA figures with standardized fuel-economy tests from other countries because the test cycles are very different. For example, the European highway rating, called &#8220;extra urban,&#8221; is higher than the EPA&#8217;s by about 30 percent, so a rating on that cycle of, say, 60 mpg, would be closer to 40 in this country. The mainstream press, not realizing the difference, often complains that automakers refuse to bring efficient models here when, in fact, they may not be all that efficient when measured by U.S. standards."
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
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So it may get low 40s on the highway here, and high 20s to low 30s city. Mixed mid to high 30s probably.

This is quite good, but when comparing vehicles from different markets with vastly different testing criteria, it's very important to make sure people don't get confused. This has been proven over and over and over and over again with vehicles that get crazy high ratings in Europe that turn out to get real-world testing here that is much more realistic with a mix of city and highway driving.

A decent example can be this :

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=356756&page=2

Guy says 5.4L/100KM, which he was pleased with. Drive included a cruise on the freeway. 5.4L/100KM = ~43MPG.

It's a lot like the VW TDIs that report 60+MPG in Europe, but in testing here are high 30s to mid 40s. Some can get into the 50s with very careful driving.

EDIT : Also don't forget that UK testing is the most extreme example of huge disparity. Not only is the UK Euro testing methodology incredibly lax (leading to inflated MPG estimates), but the UK Gallon is 1.2 US Gallons.
 

amyklai

Senior member
Nov 11, 2008
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So it may get low 40s on the highway here, and high 20s to low 30s city. Mixed mid to high 30s probably.

This is quite good, but when comparing vehicles from different markets with vastly different testing criteria, it's very important to make sure people don't get confused. This has been proven over and over and over and over again with vehicles that get crazy high ratings in Europe that turn out to get real-world testing here that is much more realistic with a mix of city and highway driving.

A decent example can be this :

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=356756&page=2

Guy says 5.4L/100KM, which he was pleased with. Drive included a cruise on the freeway. 5.4L/100KM = ~43MPG.

Well, of course he should be stoked if he got 43 mpg with three mountain bikes ON (or behind) his car, considering what that does to the car's wind drag (I can't imagine he managed to get 3 mountain bikes inside the car, I've got a 320d touring (station wagon) myself and there's basically no way to get 2 passengers and 3 bikes in there).


It's a lot like the VW TDIs that report 60+MPG in Europe, but in testing here are high 30s to mid 40s. Some can get into the 50s with very careful driving.

EDIT : Also don't forget that UK testing is the most extreme example of huge disparity. Not only is the UK Euro testing methodology incredibly lax (leading to inflated MPG estimates), but the UK Gallon is 1.2 US Gallons.
I don't know what the US's testing methodology is like, of course European fuel cycle is some sort of best case scenario which needs to be taken with a big grain of salt. But that doesn't change the fact that the 320d is very efficient for what it does. I'm generally getting around 6l / 100km (which should be somewhere slightly below 40 mpg), but that's while not actually trying to save fuel at all, and with a good bit of Autobahn, which means higher travel speeds than you'd have in the US.

Doing the same driving with, say, a Golf GTI would most definitely end up in the 8-10 l/100km range, possibly higher.
 
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Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
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True, I agree that the 320d looks like it is an excellent vehicle, and I look forward to seeing them arrive here in the US. I just don't want people to have unreasonable expectations, which often happens when people look at numbers without understanding the differences in measurments and testing methodology.

We had the 335d, but it was killed :

http://www.auto123.com/en/news/2012...&utm_medium=social-media&utm_campaign=blog-en

We should get the 320d in 2013 :

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2012/07/bmw-320d-diesel-confirmed-for-us.html

It won't be anywhere near $25k for quite some time though. Perhaps by 2015 used ones will begin to hit that price point.
 
Dec 26, 2007
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Test drove the GTI, GLI, and BRZ tonight.

Here is the BRZ:
Setup a test drive with a guy named Woody for the BRZ. Mental note, if the guys name is Woody... don't bother with a test drive with him. Call back later.

The Good
-Supportive seating
-Liked the simplistic and clean interior. Not filled with useless crap (I'm looking at you Ford) that is redundant or gets in the way of driving.
-Very nice clutch and transmission. Very very smooth.
-As with the Si, the sales guy went with and just had me go around the block... While it sucked from a test drive, I could see the enjoyment in driving it.
-Love the exterior styling
-RWD+low center of gravity was different and would recommend others to test drive it at least.

The Bad
-There is no reason for a backseat. It is unusable for adults.
-Getting in and out was the worse of any car so far.
-Feel like it's a weekend fun car, not a DD.
-While the drive was one of the best of the bunch, sadly it doesn't fit my needs. No trunk, no back seats, etc. Plus it reminds me of this creepy guy I used to work with who was like 40 and thought he was cool with his RX8. And I don't want to be like him.

I would like to test drive another one just to give it a fair shake, as I wasn't able to get it over 45 mph due to the route the dude had me take. It drove really well. Subaru and Toyota did a great job with the transmission and engine. It's worth the test drive just for that. But the only real usable space is the passenger seat. Sadly that doesn't work for me without a trunk and/or rear seats. The drive was great though.
 
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Dec 26, 2007
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Next up was the GTI. Quick side note: both the Subaru and VW dealers were the same place (same lot and all). The Subaru guy said "he had to go along." The VW guy said "go have fun, it's got plenty of gas." The Subaru guy lied straight to me since they were the same dealership for both. It left such a bitter taste in my mouth even a great car would have had issues redeeming it.

The Good:
-Easy to get in and out of.
-Nice interior, everything felt like there was quality there (not cheap plastic)
-Comfortable, and very good UI for the steering controls
-Awesome to drive. I see now why basically every review site puts this car as one of their favorites. It's very fun, and feels european (small, whip in and out of traffic, etc... think Italian Job in their Mini's).
-While it's not the raw power of the Speed3, it's still got power in all gears. Sixth was no where near as powerful as the Speed3 was but it was there. Also, doing 70 did NOT feel like 70 (good because then might not miss that high top speed that would only get used in responsible ways).

The Bad
-Plaid seats? Seriously... Give us some options here guys.
----And the Autobahn edition's leather option would jump the price to $5k. Granted it then has the other options (nav, etc) that I'd like, but I don't want a massive car payment.
-I'm struggling with "the bad" on this because it impressed me that much. It was the Apple of cars. It just worked (the electronics especially in this regard).
-Price for options I'd want would make it potentially most expensive.
-Hatchback again like the others

For not looking at this originally, it blew me away. I know previously I was adamant about the plaid and not owning it for that reason alone, but jesus was that enjoyable. I've been going through each car trying to find any fault I can and I'm struggling to think of even minor issues here. The MPG is right, the price is a bit high, but the quality is there and the power is there. It's just an all around good vehicle. I think this car is in the final group just from the first test drive.
 
Dec 26, 2007
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Finally the GLI

The Good
-Had power to it, and was enjoyable to drive
-Very spacious and comfortable
-Very sedan-y
-Like the GTI the interior had great quality to it.
-Steering wheel controls and other UI was great.

The Bad
-Felt sedan-y.
-Seemed like a family car, not a drivers car. Nor a late 20's single guys car either.
-As with the GTI, not many complaints here either. Very good car, just not for me.

The last point in the bad summarizes nicely. I enjoyed the drive, it had all the things I liked about the GTI in a family friendly sedan. It was not as powerful as the GTI or others, but I didn't feel like there would be a time I'd be lacking power either. If you're looking for a good family car, check it out. That's not me however.
 

JCH13

Diamond Member
Sep 14, 2010
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Sorry to hear the dealer ride-along is annoying. Though it didn't stop me from driving cars hard. When I test drove an SI the sales guys asked to drive it first, he then proceeded to flat-foot shift through 3rd gear and bounce off of the rev limiter. Honda has a special training course for selling the SI apparently, so their sales people know how to show it off if they took the course.
 
Dec 26, 2007
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I am way too invested in this:
Excel_cars.JPG
 

NutBucket

Lifer
Aug 30, 2000
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Sorry to hear the dealer ride-along is annoying. Though it didn't stop me from driving cars hard. When I test drove an SI the sales guys asked to drive it first, he then proceeded to flat-foot shift through 3rd gear and bounce off of the rev limiter. Honda has a special training course for selling the SI apparently, so their sales people know how to show it off if they took the course.
Must be the same training the Mitsubishi salesman took to sell Evos...at least when I test drove one 5-6 years ago.

Then again, years ago a Honda salesman had me drive a Civic EX the same way to "feel the VTEC" LOL!
 
Dec 26, 2007
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So... now I kind of want to wait for the 2014 GTI... More HP, more torque, mechanical differential instead of electronic, etc. That's another year in my car. I don't think I can do though. Ugh.

Also, this sums up the ST vs GTI debate I've been having:

The Focus is 5.8 inches longer and 140 pounds heavier than the GTI, but the extra sheetmetal doesn't translate into more interior room. There are two fewer inches of rear-seat legroom in the Ford but more space in the cargo hold. Some may miss the compactness of the old two-door SVT Focus, but thankfully the extra head- and legroom don't compromise the dynamics of the modern four-door. The new ST is a real back-road hooligan. As soon as the going gets tough, the intrepid Ford will roll up its sleeves, take a deep breath, and assume total attack mode. Screaming from apex to apex, flying over brows, and crashing into dips, the Focus prepared by the Special Vehicle Team snaps after every pothole, kicks every ridge, and fights every surface change. Corner by corner, the blue streak will tighten the line a little bit more, push the braking point deeper and deeper into the bend, celebrate the fine art of lift-off oversteer, turn in eerily late yet never lose composure or adhesion. This awesome performance is accompanied by a spine-tingling soundtrack composed of tires howling for mercy, turbocharger vanes whining under full boost pressure, and ABS/ESP chips snarling in despair. Criticism? Maneuverability suffers from the oversize turning circle, the steering keeps pulling and tugging in protest, and the suspension setup is as stiff as a dry martini on the rocks.

Step out of the Ford and into the VW, and you enter a different world. It is quieter, less mechanical and physical, more structured and refined, German engineering wrapped in German build quality. Sehr schoen. The GTI is creamy and seamless, a tall-gear-and-low-revs express, very well balanced and very quick. If the ST is a slalom king, then the GTI is a master of winding roads. What this car does best is pick up momentum and carry it through, constantly compressing and expanding energy like one big muscle on wheels, totally elastic and yet absolutely sure-footed, an intelligent projectile that has learned to fly up and down, left and right, slower and faster. Even on the optional nineteen-inch Pirelli PZeros (a size not offered in the States), the car from Wolfsburg is more compliant, more comfortable, and more laid-back than the ST. True, the VW's steering is not as quick as the lightweight direction-finder fitted to the Ford, but it is less nervous at high speed and doesn't allow torque to work your palms as hard as the ST. This overriding smoothness is further enhanced by the dual-clutch automatic transmission, which never ever puts a single dent into the perfectly progressive acceleration curve. Things to be improved? The brakes are too soft, the fuel consumption is too high, and the list of available high-tech extras is too short.

These are two different cars for two different types of customers. An ST buyer might briefly look at the GTI, but the mind-set of a prospective Volkswagen owner is probably too resolved to consider the extroverted Focus. As is almost always the case, the final decision is a matter of taste and ability. Both contenders are seriously quick, but the Focus is sharper-edged. Always on the prowl, dynamically quite radical, and totally committed, the ST is a highly involving hot hatch -- despite and because of its rough-and-ready personality. It is, in a nutshell, the better choice for young and keen drivers and fashion-conscious street jockeys. In the other corner of our imaginary ring sits the VW, which is is better balanced, less playful, and more mature than its challenger. A deceptively quick cruiser, the sixth-generation GTI might be ultimately less engaging than the Focus, but it is finely honed and complete, a master of the nuances of motion, an amazingly versatile tool, and truly rewarding to drive. On Sunday mornings, after a round of golf or for that impromptu back-road detour, you would invariably reach for the Ford keys. At other times, however, most of us might be better off with the fob that reads GTI.

Full review

http://www.automobilemag.com/review..._focus_st_vs_2012_volkswagen_gti/viewall.html
 

Imported

Lifer
Sep 2, 2000
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You think you could send me that excel sheet? I love the format of it. My GF is looking for a new daily commuter.. Sadly it'll have to be an auto so I can't really use the same cars for consideration, but I'd love to just be able to plug stuff in.

Replacing her IS250 that just got totaled and she's all over the place with possible replacements (New IS250, Focus Titanium, Sonata Hybrid, Fusion Hybrid, etc.). :(
 
Dec 26, 2007
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Sent you a PM Imported.

I was pretty happy with it myself :). If you have questions feel free to ask. One quick thing is the "trim level" was my way to group similar trims so I can filter them easily. So I took the options available and the closest matches got the same level number. The base is bone stock as cheap as I can get the car. Also, same color with different shading indicates same car just different body style (2/4 dr mainly). Also a note about how I computer MPG and increase in gas price.

EDIT: I get 33 mpg right now. I'm guessing gas will get up to $5/gal over the next 5-7 years (and if not then I have extra money in my budget). With ~115,000 miles for 7.5 years of driving, that puts about 15k on per year (slightly over but close enough). At 33 mpg, that means roughly 500 gal of gas per year. Then I took 500@$5/gal as the baseline $2500/year and found out how much per year over that each car would be. Multiplied by 7 (expected length I'll own it), and arrived at that value.
 
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Dr. Detroit

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2004
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DV -

I'm surprised you ranked the Focus MFT as 3rd in electronics?

It has by far the best sound system and the MFT 8" screen is responsive - yes, there are issues - but its a learning curve which you adapt too. Its too much tech, not a problem of not enough. AND MSFT is committed to providing updates - another significant one should be coming out shortly. We are on our 3rd update and expect a 4th to come. Ford listens to people and we are allowed to make suggestions which they supposedly incorporate.

Some other pluses of the Focus:

Automatic wipers
Automatic headlights
HID's on ST3 package
MyFord keyless entry proximity system & push button start
Interior LED lighting with multiple colors
Climate Control - great tactile knobs so you don't have to mess with MFT screen
Power drivers seat
Flat folding rear seat
 
Dec 26, 2007
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DV -

I'm surprised you ranked the Focus MFT as 3rd in electronics?

It has by far the best sound system and the MFT 8" screen is responsive - yes, there are issues - but its a learning curve which you adapt too. Its too much tech, not a problem of not enough. AND MSFT is committed to providing updates - another significant one should be coming out shortly. We are on our 3rd update and expect a 4th to come. Ford listens to people and we are allowed to make suggestions which they supposedly incorporate.

Some other pluses of the Focus:

Automatic wipers
Automatic headlights
HID's on ST3 package
MyFord keyless entry proximity system & push button start
Interior LED lighting with multiple colors
Climate Control - great tactile knobs so you don't have to mess with MFT screen
Power drivers seat
Flat folding rear seat

The ergo, electro, and driving are overall. So driving contains things like clutch feel, how it responds to input, performance, etc. Ergo contains stuff like seats and the usability of the insides. Finally electronics is how did the UI work, how well laid out are controls, extraneous stuff that would distract from driving, how well the GPS worked, and one of the biggest negatives for the Ford (that was included in electro) was the steering controls. The "up" was not in an easy to press spot from natural driving positions.

The ST suffers from too much crap-itis. The VW and Mazda both had great UI and the electronics seemed better thought out. Ford gave the impression of "how much shit can we shove in here?" It felt overwhelming and unnecessary which is why I placed it 3rd. That doesn't mean it's bad, it just means I liked the overall electronics package from others better (namely UI and steering controls).

I agree with you about the touch screen being responsive. I thought the sound system was decent too, and I know I'd get used to the UI and such. It just didn't have the cohesion and unity that others had IMO.

I appreciate the input. My thoughts on the other pluses are:
-I dislike automatic anything generally, and headlights/wipers I've done fine with manual for years on those so they aren't selling points to me personally.
-HIDs are nice, but are options on most the others too.
-The keyless entry proximity and push start are definitely pluses that I did like.
-With you explaining that it makes a bit more sense for the climate controls, but I feel they didn't need the LCD for it and could have done that simpler.
-The rear seats fold down in any of the other cars as well (Civic sedans or hatches) which is one thing I like about my car.
-Power seats generally are slow and because of that I'd rather have manual on these too.

You mention the multiple colors of interior lighting. I thought it was blue only?