Mythbusters to take on "the plane and the treadmill" conundrum?

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: Rangoric

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: Garth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder


Everyone is invited to read the sections under symptoms and diagnosis and reflect about the behaviors of the two trolls.

Anyone wishing to show the plane can take off or the question is invalid under the assumption that the treadmill matches the speed of the plane relative to the treadmill please just leave out any crappy analogies and write the equations for the interaction between the wheels, treadmill and plane. Then show that the force on the plane via the wheels is bounded anything else is just shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

Just show that and you can prove we are wrong. No need for your trolling.

No need, frictionless wheels. Next?

Friction isn't the only force.

Acting on the wheels, it is.

Ahhh...so this is where your confusion comes from. Friction is the only force that acts on the plane between the ground and the plane (and no, before you say it, the friction does not act directly on the plane).

No it isn't. Lets forget about the treadmill for a moment. What force is cause the wheel to move as the plane drives down the runway? It isn't friction.

 

[jimbob200521]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521
Ahhh...so this is where your confusion comes from. Friction is the only force that acts on the plane between the ground and the plane (and no, before you say it, the friction does not act directly on the plane).

No it isn't. Lets forget about the treadmill for a moment. What force is cause the wheel to move as the plane drives down the runway? It isn't friction.

Correct, it is not friction. The wheels spinning is the result of the movement of the plane. The plane is moving because the trust of the jets is pushing against the surrounding air pushing the plane forward.

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521
Ahhh...so this is where your confusion comes from. Friction is the only force that acts on the plane between the ground and the plane (and no, before you say it, the friction does not act directly on the plane).

No it isn't. Lets forget about the treadmill for a moment. What force is cause the wheel to move as the plane drives down the runway? It isn't friction.

Correct, it is not friction. The wheels spinning is the result of the movement of the plane. The plane is moving because the trust of the jets is pushing against the surrounding air pushing the plane forward.

Edit don't forget to included the equations this time.

So clearly friction isn't the only force. Now what forces act on a plane when I put it on a treadmill with the engines off?

 

[jimbob200521]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521
Ahhh...so this is where your confusion comes from. Friction is the only force that acts on the plane between the ground and the plane (and no, before you say it, the friction does not act directly on the plane).

No it isn't. Lets forget about the treadmill for a moment. What force is cause the wheel to move as the plane drives down the runway? It isn't friction.

Correct, it is not friction. The wheels spinning is the result of the movement of the plane. The plane is moving because the trust of the jets is pushing against the surrounding air pushing the plane forward.

Edit don't forget to included the equations this time.

So clearly friction isn't the only force. Now what forces act on a plane when I put it on a treadmill with the engines off?

Why would the engines be off? If the engines are off, the plane has nowhere to get thrust (read: movement) from.

Have you been under the impression this whole time that the planes engines are off?

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521
Ahhh...so this is where your confusion comes from. Friction is the only force that acts on the plane between the ground and the plane (and no, before you say it, the friction does not act directly on the plane).

No it isn't. Lets forget about the treadmill for a moment. What force is cause the wheel to move as the plane drives down the runway? It isn't friction.

Correct, it is not friction. The wheels spinning is the result of the movement of the plane. The plane is moving because the trust of the jets is pushing against the surrounding air pushing the plane forward.

Edit don't forget to included the equations this time.

So clearly friction isn't the only force. Now what forces act on a plane when I put it on a treadmill with the engines off?

None.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: Garth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder


Everyone is invited to read the sections under symptoms and diagnosis and reflect about the behaviors of the two trolls.

Anyone wishing to show the plane can take off or the question is invalid under the assumption that the treadmill matches the speed of the plane relative to the treadmill please just leave out any crappy analogies and write the equations for the interaction between the wheels, treadmill and plane. Then show that the force on the plane via the wheels is bounded anything else is just shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

Just show that and you can prove we are wrong. No need for your trolling.

I already did. And I quote myself again, thusly, and like so...

Yes it is. If the wheels roll +1 ft, then the tread mill will move -1 ft. Yet, because of the contact of the wheel with the treadmill, the wheel would have to move a net 2 ft as the reverse motion of the treadmill moves the wheel. Contradiction.

That's on top of the fact that there is no reason to assume that the speed of the plane should be measured in reference to the treadmill surface.

None of the above did you ever once so much as acknowledge, let alone attempt to rebut. Why won't you answer my questions?

I asked you:

Please tell me if this correctly represents your counter-argument. If it does not, please explain in detail where yours differs:

1.) The treadmill matches the speed of the plane, in the reverse direction.
2.) If the plane moves at 45 mph, then the treadmill moves at -45 mph
3.) If #2 is the case, then the plane moves at 0 mph.

Is that accurate?

Can you respond?

It quite seems you do in fact have a personality disorder, a learning disability, or perhaps both. I suggest you seek help.

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521
Ahhh...so this is where your confusion comes from. Friction is the only force that acts on the plane between the ground and the plane (and no, before you say it, the friction does not act directly on the plane).

No it isn't. Lets forget about the treadmill for a moment. What force is cause the wheel to move as the plane drives down the runway? It isn't friction.

Correct, it is not friction. The wheels spinning is the result of the movement of the plane. The plane is moving because the trust of the jets is pushing against the surrounding air pushing the plane forward.

Edit don't forget to included the equations this time.

So clearly friction isn't the only force. Now what forces act on a plane when I put it on a treadmill with the engines off?

None.

So if I place an object on a treadmill it isn't going to move?

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521
Ahhh...so this is where your confusion comes from. Friction is the only force that acts on the plane between the ground and the plane (and no, before you say it, the friction does not act directly on the plane).

No it isn't. Lets forget about the treadmill for a moment. What force is cause the wheel to move as the plane drives down the runway? It isn't friction.

Correct, it is not friction. The wheels spinning is the result of the movement of the plane. The plane is moving because the trust of the jets is pushing against the surrounding air pushing the plane forward.

Edit don't forget to included the equations this time.

So clearly friction isn't the only force. Now what forces act on a plane when I put it on a treadmill with the engines off?

Why would the engines be off? If the engines are off, the plane has nowhere to get thrust (read: movement) from.

Have you been under the impression this whole time that the planes engines are off?

WTF your just trolling or really retard.

I'm trying to get you to understand the force involved. It is easyer to just consider one at a time. But i guess you are to retard for that.

 

[kthroyer]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521
Ahhh...so this is where your confusion comes from. Friction is the only force that acts on the plane between the ground and the plane (and no, before you say it, the friction does not act directly on the plane).

No it isn't. Lets forget about the treadmill for a moment. What force is cause the wheel to move as the plane drives down the runway? It isn't friction.

Correct, it is not friction. The wheels spinning is the result of the movement of the plane. The plane is moving because the trust of the jets is pushing against the surrounding air pushing the plane forward.

Edit don't forget to included the equations this time.

So clearly friction isn't the only force. Now what forces act on a plane when I put it on a treadmill with the engines off?

I understand that the plane would move backward as the treadmill moved backward, if the engines were not on. This clearly is a force that would act on the planes movement forward after the engines are turned on, but this force would quickly be overcome by the engines thrust, because the wheels can spin freely. Don't you agree?

 

[LegendKiller]

The fact that this thread is 46 pages lone is a tribute to the stupidity of American kids and the failure of our schools. Airplane flight depends on airflow over the wings. If you have forward movement that is exactly equal to reverse movement you have no airflow over the wings and thus the Bernoulli Effect (lift) cannot work.

Why the heck are there even any questions on this?

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521
Ahhh...so this is where your confusion comes from. Friction is the only force that acts on the plane between the ground and the plane (and no, before you say it, the friction does not act directly on the plane).

No it isn't. Lets forget about the treadmill for a moment. What force is cause the wheel to move as the plane drives down the runway? It isn't friction.

Correct, it is not friction. The wheels spinning is the result of the movement of the plane. The plane is moving because the trust of the jets is pushing against the surrounding air pushing the plane forward.

Edit don't forget to included the equations this time.

So clearly friction isn't the only force. Now what forces act on a plane when I put it on a treadmill with the engines off?

None.

So if I place an object on a treadmill it isn't going to move?

The intertia of a heavy object on free wheels...
"an object at rest will stay at rest"
The force of the treadmill will be allocated into angular acceleration of the wheels, it will not be transferred linearly to the body of the plane.
You do realize you can spin the wheel of a plane without it moving correct?

 

[kthroyer]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
The fact that this thread is 46 pages lone is a tribute to the stupidity of American kids and the failure of our schools. Airplane flight depends on airflow over the wings. If you have forward movement that is exactly equal to reverse movement you have no airflow over the wings and thus the Bernoulli Effect (lift) cannot work.

Why the heck are there even any questions on this?

No one is disputing that. What is argued is that the plane will move forward, because no matter how fast the treadmill spins the wheels of the plane, the plane will move forward because of the propeller or jet engine. The wheels do not propel the airplane forward.

Think about it.

 

[hdeck]

what's sad is that mythbusters could do this myth, and those on the opposite side of their result will still contest it.

 

[jimbob200521]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521
Ahhh...so this is where your confusion comes from. Friction is the only force that acts on the plane between the ground and the plane (and no, before you say it, the friction does not act directly on the plane).

No it isn't. Lets forget about the treadmill for a moment. What force is cause the wheel to move as the plane drives down the runway? It isn't friction.

Correct, it is not friction. The wheels spinning is the result of the movement of the plane. The plane is moving because the trust of the jets is pushing against the surrounding air pushing the plane forward.

Edit don't forget to included the equations this time.

So clearly friction isn't the only force. Now what forces act on a plane when I put it on a treadmill with the engines off?

Why would the engines be off? If the engines are off, the plane has nowhere to get thrust (read: movement) from.

Have you been under the impression this whole time that the planes engines are off?

WTF your just trolling or really retard.

I'm trying to get you to understand the force involved. It is easyer to just consider one at a time. But i guess you are to retard for that.

Screw being nice, I can't take it anymore.

You and Masonfvck are retarded.

Plane that is off + treadmill that is off = no movement from either.

Plane that is off + treadmill that is on = plane moving in the direction the treadmill is moving

Plane that is on + treadmill that is off = plane moving in the direction the engines are directed

Plane that is on + treadmill that is on = plane moving in the direction the engines are directed.

You are mentally retarded. I see no other reason that you cannot comprehend this.

Yes, I am resorting to the level that Smack and Mason have gone to. After arguing this for who knows how long, I am getting tired of it. I know others feel the same, but have had the will power I wish I had to stop posting in this thread.

 

[GuitarDaddy]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
The fact that this thread is 46 pages lone is a tribute to the stupidity of American kids and the failure of our schools. Airplane flight depends on airflow over the wings. If you have forward movement that is exactly equal to reverse movement you have no airflow over the wings and thus the Bernoulli Effect (lift) cannot work.

Why the heck are there even any questions on this?

:laugh: Your post if quite ironic

I think you forgot something, like the WHEELS of the plane

Explain exactly how the treadmill will prevent the plane from moving forward?

As long as the wheels spin freely the plane will move forward as thrust is applied, regardless of how fast the treadmill is moving in the other direction. The only effect the treadmill will have is to make the wheels rotate at 2x the rate they would durring a normal take off.


This whole argument is hilarious and only demonstrates how a cleverly worded problem like this can make people focus on the wrong thing and totally lose all common sense.
People get caught up in equations and pyhsics and overlook the simple fact that the wheels FVCKING SPIN!!!!!

 

[So]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
The fact that this thread is 46 pages lone is a tribute to the stupidity of American kids and the failure of our schools. Airplane flight depends on airflow over the wings. If you have forward movement that is exactly equal to reverse movement you have no airflow over the wings and thus the Bernoulli Effect (lift) cannot work.

Why the heck are there even any questions on this?

Wow. And you are a testament to that failure. Nobody NOBODY said the plane would fly w/o airflow.

The plane WILL move forward.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Please refer to this page offer by the US Dept of Energy.

I quote Dick Plano, Professor of Physics emeritus, Rutgers University, from that page:

If I properly understand your travelator, the travelator moves at
exactly the speed of the airplane, but in the opposite
direction. This means the wheels rotate twice as fast as they would
on a normal runway and nothing else is different. Right?

In that case, I claim the plane would take off normally except that
the wheels would be rotating twice as fast as normally. Since the
frictional force is, as you say, f=uR, the frictional force will be
exactly the same in the two cases since v does not appear in the
equation for the frictional force. In other words, the frictional
force is independent of the speed. In that case the forces on the
plane are exactly the same whether the travelator is operating or
not and so the plane takes off the same way in the two cases.

Can either Mason or Smack provide just 1 link from ANYWHERE that agrees with their position?

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
The fact that this thread is 46 pages lone is a tribute to the stupidity of American kids and the failure of our schools. Airplane flight depends on airflow over the wings. If you have forward movement that is exactly equal to reverse movement you have no airflow over the wings and thus the Bernoulli Effect (lift) cannot work.

Why the heck are there even any questions on this?

Wow. And you are a testament to that failure. Nobody NOBODY said the plane would fly w/o airflow.

The plane WILL move forward.

Sarcasm meter?

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521
Ahhh...so this is where your confusion comes from. Friction is the only force that acts on the plane between the ground and the plane (and no, before you say it, the friction does not act directly on the plane).

No it isn't. Lets forget about the treadmill for a moment. What force is cause the wheel to move as the plane drives down the runway? It isn't friction.

Correct, it is not friction. The wheels spinning is the result of the movement of the plane. The plane is moving because the trust of the jets is pushing against the surrounding air pushing the plane forward.

Edit don't forget to included the equations this time.

So clearly friction isn't the only force. Now what forces act on a plane when I put it on a treadmill with the engines off?

Why would the engines be off? If the engines are off, the plane has nowhere to get thrust (read: movement) from.

Have you been under the impression this whole time that the planes engines are off?

WTF your just trolling or really retard.

I'm trying to get you to understand the force involved. It is easyer to just consider one at a time. But i guess you are to retard for that.

Screw being nice, I can't take it anymore.

You and Masonfvck are retarded.

Plane that is off + treadmill that is off = no movement from either.

Plane that is off + treadmill that is on = plane moving in the direction the treadmill is moving

Plane that is on + treadmill that is off = plane moving in the direction the engines are directed

Plane that is on + treadmill that is on = plane moving in the direction the engines are directed.

You are mentally retarded. I see no other reason that you cannot comprehend this.

Yes, I am resorting to the level that Smack and Mason have gone to. After arguing this for who knows how long, I am getting tired of it. I know others feel the same, but have had the will power I wish I had to stop posting in this thread.

Ok now describe the forces.

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: Garth
Please refer to this page offer by the US Dept of Energy.

I quote Dick Plano, Professor of Physics emeritus, Rutgers University, from that page:

If I properly understand your travelator, the travelator moves at
exactly the speed of the airplane, but in the opposite
direction. This means the wheels rotate twice as fast as they would
on a normal runway and nothing else is different. Right?

In that case, I claim the plane would take off normally except that
the wheels would be rotating twice as fast as normally. Since the
frictional force is, as you say, f=uR, the frictional force will be
exactly the same in the two cases since v does not appear in the
equation for the frictional force. In other words, the frictional
force is independent of the speed. In that case the forces on the
plane are exactly the same whether the travelator is operating or
not and so the plane takes off the same way in the two cases.

Can either Mason or Smack provide just 1 link from ANYWHERE that agrees with their position?

Like I said for the last 800 well 900 post we are not talking about that case.

Can you provided even one link that says the plane will take off when the question is read the otherway.

 

[MasonLuke]

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521
Ahhh...so this is where your confusion comes from. Friction is the only force that acts on the plane between the ground and the plane (and no, before you say it, the friction does not act directly on the plane).

No it isn't. Lets forget about the treadmill for a moment. What force is cause the wheel to move as the plane drives down the runway? It isn't friction.

Correct, it is not friction. The wheels spinning is the result of the movement of the plane. The plane is moving because the trust of the jets is pushing against the surrounding air pushing the plane forward.

Edit don't forget to included the equations this time.

So clearly friction isn't the only force. Now what forces act on a plane when I put it on a treadmill with the engines off?

Why would the engines be off? If the engines are off, the plane has nowhere to get thrust (read: movement) from.

Have you been under the impression this whole time that the planes engines are off?

WTF your just trolling or really retard.

I'm trying to get you to understand the force involved. It is easyer to just consider one at a time. But i guess you are to retard for that.

Screw being nice, I can't take it anymore.

You and Masonfvck are retarded.

1.Plane that is off + treadmill that is off = no movement from either.

2.Plane that is off + treadmill that is on = plane moving in the direction the treadmill is moving

3.Plane that is on + treadmill that is off = plane moving in the direction the engines are directed

4.Plane that is on + treadmill that is on = plane moving in the direction the engines are directed.
You are mentally retarded. I see no other reason that you cannot comprehend this.

Yes, I am resorting to the level that Smack and Mason have gone to. After arguing this for who knows how long, I am getting tired of it. I know others feel the same, but have had the will power I wish I had to stop posting in this thread.

What a retard. 1-3 just proved 4 wrong.

 

[MasonLuke]

Originally posted by: MasonLuke

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521
Ahhh...so this is where your confusion comes from. Friction is the only force that acts on the plane between the ground and the plane (and no, before you say it, the friction does not act directly on the plane).

No it isn't. Lets forget about the treadmill for a moment. What force is cause the wheel to move as the plane drives down the runway? It isn't friction.

Correct, it is not friction. The wheels spinning is the result of the movement of the plane. The plane is moving because the trust of the jets is pushing against the surrounding air pushing the plane forward.

Edit don't forget to included the equations this time.

So clearly friction isn't the only force. Now what forces act on a plane when I put it on a treadmill with the engines off?

Why would the engines be off? If the engines are off, the plane has nowhere to get thrust (read: movement) from.

Have you been under the impression this whole time that the planes engines are off?

WTF your just trolling or really retard.

I'm trying to get you to understand the force involved. It is easyer to just consider one at a time. But i guess you are to retard for that.

Screw being nice, I can't take it anymore.

You and Masonfvck are retarded.

1.Plane that is off + treadmill that is off = no movement from either.

2.Plane that is off + treadmill that is on = plane moving in the direction the treadmill is moving

3.Plane that is on + treadmill that is off = plane moving in the direction the engines are directed

4.Plane that is on + treadmill that is on = plane moving in the direction the engines are directed.
You are mentally retarded. I see no other reason that you cannot comprehend this.

Yes, I am resorting to the level that Smack and Mason have gone to. After arguing this for who knows how long, I am getting tired of it. I know others feel the same, but have had the will power I wish I had to stop posting in this thread.

What a retard. 1-3 just proved 4 wrong.

LOL, too funny. Thanks for the proof that it cant fly.

 

[mugs]

I would like to revise my earlier assumption about MasonLuke's age (18-21) to somewhere in the 13-15 range.

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521
Ahhh...so this is where your confusion comes from. Friction is the only force that acts on the plane between the ground and the plane (and no, before you say it, the friction does not act directly on the plane).

No it isn't. Lets forget about the treadmill for a moment. What force is cause the wheel to move as the plane drives down the runway? It isn't friction.

Correct, it is not friction. The wheels spinning is the result of the movement of the plane. The plane is moving because the trust of the jets is pushing against the surrounding air pushing the plane forward.

Edit don't forget to included the equations this time.

So clearly friction isn't the only force. Now what forces act on a plane when I put it on a treadmill with the engines off?

None.

So if I place an object on a treadmill it isn't going to move?

The intertia of a heavy object on free wheels...
"an object at rest will stay at rest"
The force of the treadmill will be allocated into angular acceleration of the wheels, it will not be transferred linearly to the body of the plane.
You do realize you can spin the wheel of a plane without it moving correct?

LOL you really think that if I just put a wheel on a treadmill it isn't ever going to move?

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: Garth
Please refer to this page offer by the US Dept of Energy.

I quote Dick Plano, Professor of Physics emeritus, Rutgers University, from that page:

If I properly understand your travelator, the travelator moves at
exactly the speed of the airplane, but in the opposite
direction. This means the wheels rotate twice as fast as they would
on a normal runway and nothing else is different. Right?

In that case, I claim the plane would take off normally except that
the wheels would be rotating twice as fast as normally. Since the
frictional force is, as you say, f=uR, the frictional force will be
exactly the same in the two cases since v does not appear in the
equation for the frictional force. In other words, the frictional
force is independent of the speed. In that case the forces on the
plane are exactly the same whether the travelator is operating or
not and so the plane takes off the same way in the two cases.

Can either Mason or Smack provide just 1 link from ANYWHERE that agrees with their position?

Like I said for the last 800 well 900 post we are not talking about that case.

Can you provided even one link that says the plane will take off when the question is read the otherway.

no because there is no link of anyone who interprets the question the way you do.
and... im still waiting for you to respond to my last remarks.