Mythbusters to take on "the plane and the treadmill" conundrum?

[Rogodin2]

If your wheels had turbine engines affixed to them that compensated for the forward thrust of the turbine engines propelling the plane forward-then it wouldn't take off. Is a treamill capable of creating thrust?

IS A TREADMILL CAPABLE OF CREATING THRUST?

That's my primary question for the mongoloids.

Rogo

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: Mrvile
lol @ this thread

Any time this subject is brought up it turns into this mess.

Basically, if the plane's wheels have no friction and the treadmill has no friction, the plane will take off. Assuming that it is a jet, of course.

The turbines propel the plane independent of the wheels.

As the plane moves forward, the treadmill speed will quickly approach infinity. As will the plane's wheel speed (they are not motorized). But since there is no friction, the treadmill has no affect on the actual plane itself and it will still be able to move forward.

Here's an example...imagine yourself on a treadmill with a rope in your hands (secured somewhere out in the distance) and rollerskates on your feet. The skates are frictionless (as they should be) as is the treadmill. As the treadmill speed approaches infinity, so do your skate's wheels. But since they are both frictionless, nothing happens and you are still able to pull yourself forward with the rope.

Ugh friction has nothing to do with the problem. Well except static friction but that is infinite so the wheel will always spin and never slide.

A prefect wheel and axel will still require a force applied to it to spin and like wise spinning a wheel applies a force to the axel.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Mrvile
lol @ this thread

Any time this subject is brought up it turns into this mess.

Basically, if the plane's wheels have no friction and the treadmill has no friction, the plane will take off. Assuming that it is a jet, of course.

The turbines propel the plane independent of the wheels.

As the plane moves forward, the treadmill speed will quickly approach infinity. As will the plane's wheel speed (they are not motorized). But since there is no friction, the treadmill has no affect on the actual plane itself and it will still be able to move forward.

Here's an example...imagine yourself on a treadmill with a rope in your hands (secured somewhere out in the distance) and rollerskates on your feet. The skates are frictionless (as they should be) as is the treadmill. As the treadmill speed approaches infinity, so do your skate's wheels. But since they are both frictionless, nothing happens and you are still able to pull yourself forward with the rope.

Way to change the problem to fit your model.

You MUST take the information as presented, as dumb as it is. No assumptions. Problem solving 101.

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: Rogodin2
If your wheels had turbine engines affixed to them that compensated for the forward thrust of the turbine engines propelling the plane forward-then it wouldn't take off. Is a treamill capable of creating thrust?

IS A TREADMILL CAPABLE OF CREATING THRUST?

That's my primary question for the mongoloids.

Rogo

Thrust is just one type of force. The type of force doesn't matter.

 

[Rogodin2]

Thrust

A fixed-wing aircraft generates forward thrust when a spinning propeller moves air, or gases are ejected from a jet engine (or rocket engine), opposite the direction of flight. The forward thrust is proportional to the (mass of the air) multiplied by (average velocity of the airstream). Reverse thrust can be generated to aid braking after landing by reversing the pitch of variable pitch propeller blades, or using a thrust reverser on a jet engine. Rotary wing aircraft and thrust vectoring V/STOL aircraft use engine thrust to support the weight of the aircraft, and vector some of this thrust fore and aft to control forward speed.

If you geniuses can prove that a treadmill creates thrust then I'll believe you.

Rogo

 

[Mrvile]

Originally posted by: Rogodin2
If your wheels had turbine engines affixed to them that compensated for the forward thrust of the turbine engines propelling the plane forward-then it wouldn't take off. Is a treamill capable of creating thrust?

IS A TREADMILL CAPABLE OF CREATING THRUST?

That's my primary question for the mongoloids.

Rogo

Oh I see.

You switched the question a bit.

So let's rephrase this...you trying to say that if a harrier were *dropped* into the sky from another aircraft, could it remain airborne again without hitting the ground?

 

[Mrvile]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Mrvile
lol @ this thread

Any time this subject is brought up it turns into this mess.

Basically, if the plane's wheels have no friction and the treadmill has no friction, the plane will take off. Assuming that it is a jet, of course.

The turbines propel the plane independent of the wheels.

As the plane moves forward, the treadmill speed will quickly approach infinity. As will the plane's wheel speed (they are not motorized). But since there is no friction, the treadmill has no affect on the actual plane itself and it will still be able to move forward.

Here's an example...imagine yourself on a treadmill with a rope in your hands (secured somewhere out in the distance) and rollerskates on your feet. The skates are frictionless (as they should be) as is the treadmill. As the treadmill speed approaches infinity, so do your skate's wheels. But since they are both frictionless, nothing happens and you are still able to pull yourself forward with the rope.

Way to change the problem to fit your model.

You MUST take the information as presented, as dumb as it is. No assumptions. Problem solving 101.

I don't even know what the problem is.

 

[Rogodin2]

Thrust is just one type of force. The type of force doesn't matter

The type of force does matter-because it is measurable. If you deny that force can't be measured or is 'the same' then you clearly are incapable of rational thought. The law of inertia predates any of your ancestors and is what makes modern life possible-do you deny the law of inertia?

I know I'm wasting my time. But I need a break from server 2003 studying.

Rogo

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Rogodin2
Thrust

A fixed-wing aircraft generates forward thrust when a spinning propeller moves air, or gases are ejected from a jet engine (or rocket engine), opposite the direction of flight. The forward thrust is proportional to the (mass of the air) multiplied by (average velocity of the airstream). Reverse thrust can be generated to aid braking after landing by reversing the pitch of variable pitch propeller blades, or using a thrust reverser on a jet engine. Rotary wing aircraft and thrust vectoring V/STOL aircraft use engine thrust to support the weight of the aircraft, and vector some of this thrust fore and aft to control forward speed.

If you geniuses can prove that a treadmill creates thrust then I'll believe you.

Rogo

Ever been on a treadmill with a skateboard? *dammit* analogies.

I have, tons of times. It was loads of fun. Do you know what happened? I moved backwards relative to the ground...the faster the treadmill, the faster I moved backward. We even had to push each other and hold each other up to counter act friction.

hmmmmm. Infinite acceleration of treadmill vs non infinite thrust of engines = plane doesn't move.

 

[Mrvile]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Rogodin2
Thrust

A fixed-wing aircraft generates forward thrust when a spinning propeller moves air, or gases are ejected from a jet engine (or rocket engine), opposite the direction of flight. The forward thrust is proportional to the (mass of the air) multiplied by (average velocity of the airstream). Reverse thrust can be generated to aid braking after landing by reversing the pitch of variable pitch propeller blades, or using a thrust reverser on a jet engine. Rotary wing aircraft and thrust vectoring V/STOL aircraft use engine thrust to support the weight of the aircraft, and vector some of this thrust fore and aft to control forward speed.

If you geniuses can prove that a treadmill creates thrust then I'll believe you.

Rogo

Ever been on a treadmill with a skateboard? *dammit* analogies.

I have, tons of times. It was loads of fun. Do you know what happened? I moved backwards relative to the ground...the faster the treadmill, the faster I moved backward. We even had to push each other and hold each other up to counter act friction.

hmmmmm. Infinite acceleration of treadmill vs non infinite thrust of engines = plane doesn't move.

Hmm. If a plane just sat on a treadmill and the treadmill started, the plane would move with the treadmill. If a plane sat on a treadmill tied to a pole independent from the treadmill and the treadmill started moving, anything that would happen is completely dependent on the rope and pole. If the rope and pole were indestructable, the plane would sit in place until the speed of the treadmill caused its wheels to break.

I still don't know the problem but just stated what would happen in those two situations.

 

[Rogodin2]

have, tons of times. It was loads of fun. Do you know what happened? I moved backwards relative to the ground...the faster the treadmill, the faster I moved backward. We even had to push each other and hold each other up to counter act friction.

Spidey-you don't have a jetpack on your back. The plane has a turbine engine-it is generating more thrust than a car, boat, or your leg. There is no feasible way that a treadmill can create enough friction to keep a plane from taking off. What you experienced was a combination of gravity and friction.

Rogo

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: Rogodin2

have, tons of times. It was loads of fun. Do you know what happened? I moved backwards relative to the ground...the faster the treadmill, the faster I moved backward. We even had to push each other and hold each other up to counter act friction.

Spidey-you don't have a jetpack on your back. The plane has a turbine engine-it is generating more thrust than a car, boat, or your leg. There is no feasible way that a treadmill can create enough friction to keep a plane from taking off. What you experienced was a combination of gravity and friction.

Rogo

Friction can NEVER EVER cause acceleration. You can't move something with friction. What he experinced is the wheels pushing on the axels.

 

[Rogodin2]

Friction can NEVER EVER cause acceleration. You can't move something with friction. What he experinced is the wheels pushing on the axels.

Well, you just admitted that it's possible for the plane to take off.

The wheels can't cause deaccleration.

Rogo

 

[vizkiz]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Rogodin2
Thrust

A fixed-wing aircraft generates forward thrust when a spinning propeller moves air, or gases are ejected from a jet engine (or rocket engine), opposite the direction of flight. The forward thrust is proportional to the (mass of the air) multiplied by (average velocity of the airstream). Reverse thrust can be generated to aid braking after landing by reversing the pitch of variable pitch propeller blades, or using a thrust reverser on a jet engine. Rotary wing aircraft and thrust vectoring V/STOL aircraft use engine thrust to support the weight of the aircraft, and vector some of this thrust fore and aft to control forward speed.

If you geniuses can prove that a treadmill creates thrust then I'll believe you.

Rogo

Ever been on a treadmill with a skateboard? *dammit* analogies.

I have, tons of times. It was loads of fun. Do you know what happened? I moved backwards relative to the ground...the faster the treadmill, the faster I moved backward. We even had to push each other and hold each other up to counter act friction.

hmmmmm. Infinite acceleration of treadmill vs non infinite thrust of engines = plane doesn't move.

It's perfect that you brought this up.
Imagine that your treadmill is moving at 5mph with you on the skateboard on it.
Your friend is holding you in place. The skateboard wheels are moving at 5mph.
Your friend pushes you forward at 5mph.
You are moving forward 5mph, but the skateboard wheels are moving freely at 10mph.

The plane does the same thing. According to the question, the treadmill does NOT have infinite acceleration. It moves backwards only as fast as the plane is moving forwards. The acceleration of the treadmill is limited by the acceleration of the plane.

 

[Toastedlightly]

Originally posted by: Rogodin2

Friction can NEVER EVER cause acceleration. You can't move something with friction. What he experinced is the wheels pushing on the axels.

Well, you just admitted that it's possible for the plane to take off.

The wheels can't cause deaccleration.

Rogo

Touche.

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: vizkiz

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Rogodin2
Thrust

A fixed-wing aircraft generates forward thrust when a spinning propeller moves air, or gases are ejected from a jet engine (or rocket engine), opposite the direction of flight. The forward thrust is proportional to the (mass of the air) multiplied by (average velocity of the airstream). Reverse thrust can be generated to aid braking after landing by reversing the pitch of variable pitch propeller blades, or using a thrust reverser on a jet engine. Rotary wing aircraft and thrust vectoring V/STOL aircraft use engine thrust to support the weight of the aircraft, and vector some of this thrust fore and aft to control forward speed.

If you geniuses can prove that a treadmill creates thrust then I'll believe you.

Rogo

Ever been on a treadmill with a skateboard? *dammit* analogies.

I have, tons of times. It was loads of fun. Do you know what happened? I moved backwards relative to the ground...the faster the treadmill, the faster I moved backward. We even had to push each other and hold each other up to counter act friction.

hmmmmm. Infinite acceleration of treadmill vs non infinite thrust of engines = plane doesn't move.

It's perfect that you brought this up.
Imagine that your treadmill is moving at 5mph with you on the skateboard on it.
Your friend is holding you in place. The skateboard wheels are moving at 5mph.
Your friend pushes you forward at 5mph.
You are moving forward 5mph, but the skateboard wheels are moving freely at 10mph.

The plane does the same thing.

No it doesn't the treadmill's speed would increase until you had zero forward motion. You would not move.

 

[vizkiz]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: vizkiz

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Rogodin2
Thrust

A fixed-wing aircraft generates forward thrust when a spinning propeller moves air, or gases are ejected from a jet engine (or rocket engine), opposite the direction of flight. The forward thrust is proportional to the (mass of the air) multiplied by (average velocity of the airstream). Reverse thrust can be generated to aid braking after landing by reversing the pitch of variable pitch propeller blades, or using a thrust reverser on a jet engine. Rotary wing aircraft and thrust vectoring V/STOL aircraft use engine thrust to support the weight of the aircraft, and vector some of this thrust fore and aft to control forward speed.

If you geniuses can prove that a treadmill creates thrust then I'll believe you.

Rogo

Ever been on a treadmill with a skateboard? *dammit* analogies.

I have, tons of times. It was loads of fun. Do you know what happened? I moved backwards relative to the ground...the faster the treadmill, the faster I moved backward. We even had to push each other and hold each other up to counter act friction.

hmmmmm. Infinite acceleration of treadmill vs non infinite thrust of engines = plane doesn't move.

It's perfect that you brought this up.
Imagine that your treadmill is moving at 5mph with you on the skateboard on it.
Your friend is holding you in place. The skateboard wheels are moving at 5mph.
Your friend pushes you forward at 5mph.
You are moving forward 5mph, but the skateboard wheels are moving freely at 10mph.

The plane does the same thing.

No it doesn't the treadmill's speed would increase until you had zero forward motion. You would not move.

According to the question, the treadmill does NOT have infinite acceleration. It moves backwards only as fast as the plane is moving forwards. The acceleration of the treadmill is limited by the acceleration of the plane.

If the plane is going 300mph forward, the treadmill can only go 300mph backwards.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Rogodin2

have, tons of times. It was loads of fun. Do you know what happened? I moved backwards relative to the ground...the faster the treadmill, the faster I moved backward. We even had to push each other and hold each other up to counter act friction.

Spidey-you don't have a jetpack on your back. The plane has a turbine engine-it is generating more thrust than a car, boat, or your leg. There is no feasible way that a treadmill can create enough friction to keep a plane from taking off. What you experienced was a combination of gravity and friction.

Rogo

I totally and firmly understand you and you are correct. But you are changing the problem again.

oh well, it's been hashed out over and over again on the Intarweb. I have said my piece, not a troll, just taking the scenario at face value. I cannot be convinced otherwise because it is due to my interpretation of said scenario - not from being stupid though.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: vizkiz
According to the question, the treadmill does NOT have infinite acceleration. It moves backwards only as fast as the plane is moving forwards. The acceleration of the treadmill is limited by the acceleration of the plane.

If the plane is going 300mph forward, the treadmill can only go 300mph backwards.

Fine. Capable of infinite acceleration with delta T = 0.

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: vizkiz

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: vizkiz

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Rogodin2
Thrust

A fixed-wing aircraft generates forward thrust when a spinning propeller moves air, or gases are ejected from a jet engine (or rocket engine), opposite the direction of flight. The forward thrust is proportional to the (mass of the air) multiplied by (average velocity of the airstream). Reverse thrust can be generated to aid braking after landing by reversing the pitch of variable pitch propeller blades, or using a thrust reverser on a jet engine. Rotary wing aircraft and thrust vectoring V/STOL aircraft use engine thrust to support the weight of the aircraft, and vector some of this thrust fore and aft to control forward speed.

If you geniuses can prove that a treadmill creates thrust then I'll believe you.

Rogo

Ever been on a treadmill with a skateboard? *dammit* analogies.

I have, tons of times. It was loads of fun. Do you know what happened? I moved backwards relative to the ground...the faster the treadmill, the faster I moved backward. We even had to push each other and hold each other up to counter act friction.

hmmmmm. Infinite acceleration of treadmill vs non infinite thrust of engines = plane doesn't move.

It's perfect that you brought this up.
Imagine that your treadmill is moving at 5mph with you on the skateboard on it.
Your friend is holding you in place. The skateboard wheels are moving at 5mph.
Your friend pushes you forward at 5mph.
You are moving forward 5mph, but the skateboard wheels are moving freely at 10mph.

The plane does the same thing.

No it doesn't the treadmill's speed would increase until you had zero forward motion. You would not move.

According to the question, the treadmill does NOT have infinite acceleration. It moves backwards only as fast as the plane is moving forwards. The acceleration of the treadmill is limited by the acceleration of the plane.

If the plane is going 300mph forward, the treadmill can only go 300mph backwards.

Right if the plane is going forward 300 mph relative to the treadmill and the treadmill is going backwards at 300 mph relative to ground then the plane is not moving relative to ground.

 

[vizkiz]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: vizkiz
According to the question, the treadmill does NOT have infinite acceleration. It moves backwards only as fast as the plane is moving forwards. The acceleration of the treadmill is limited by the acceleration of the plane.

If the plane is going 300mph forward, the treadmill can only go 300mph backwards.

Fine. Capable of infinite acceleration with delta T = 0.

Huh?

 

[vizkiz]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: vizkiz

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: vizkiz

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Rogodin2
Thrust

A fixed-wing aircraft generates forward thrust when a spinning propeller moves air, or gases are ejected from a jet engine (or rocket engine), opposite the direction of flight. The forward thrust is proportional to the (mass of the air) multiplied by (average velocity of the airstream). Reverse thrust can be generated to aid braking after landing by reversing the pitch of variable pitch propeller blades, or using a thrust reverser on a jet engine. Rotary wing aircraft and thrust vectoring V/STOL aircraft use engine thrust to support the weight of the aircraft, and vector some of this thrust fore and aft to control forward speed.

If you geniuses can prove that a treadmill creates thrust then I'll believe you.

Rogo

Ever been on a treadmill with a skateboard? *dammit* analogies.

I have, tons of times. It was loads of fun. Do you know what happened? I moved backwards relative to the ground...the faster the treadmill, the faster I moved backward. We even had to push each other and hold each other up to counter act friction.

hmmmmm. Infinite acceleration of treadmill vs non infinite thrust of engines = plane doesn't move.

It's perfect that you brought this up.
Imagine that your treadmill is moving at 5mph with you on the skateboard on it.
Your friend is holding you in place. The skateboard wheels are moving at 5mph.
Your friend pushes you forward at 5mph.
You are moving forward 5mph, but the skateboard wheels are moving freely at 10mph.

The plane does the same thing.

No it doesn't the treadmill's speed would increase until you had zero forward motion. You would not move.

According to the question, the treadmill does NOT have infinite acceleration. It moves backwards only as fast as the plane is moving forwards. The acceleration of the treadmill is limited by the acceleration of the plane.

If the plane is going 300mph forward, the treadmill can only go 300mph backwards.

Right if the plane is going forward 300 mph relative to the treadmill and the treadmill is going backwards at 300 mph relative to ground then the plane is not moving relative to ground.

No, you are changing the question. The plane is not moving 300mph relative to the treadmill. The plane is moving 300mph airspeed, relative to the air. The air is not moving, therefore the plaing is moving 300mph in a forward direction. It's true speed relative to the [300mph reverse running] treadmill would be 600mph.

 

[Rogodin2]

But you are changing the problem again.

Metaphysics was debunked by Kant-it has not value here Spidey.

Rogo

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: vizkiz

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: vizkiz

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: vizkiz

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Rogodin2
Thrust

A fixed-wing aircraft generates forward thrust when a spinning propeller moves air, or gases are ejected from a jet engine (or rocket engine), opposite the direction of flight. The forward thrust is proportional to the (mass of the air) multiplied by (average velocity of the airstream). Reverse thrust can be generated to aid braking after landing by reversing the pitch of variable pitch propeller blades, or using a thrust reverser on a jet engine. Rotary wing aircraft and thrust vectoring V/STOL aircraft use engine thrust to support the weight of the aircraft, and vector some of this thrust fore and aft to control forward speed.

If you geniuses can prove that a treadmill creates thrust then I'll believe you.

Rogo

Ever been on a treadmill with a skateboard? *dammit* analogies.

I have, tons of times. It was loads of fun. Do you know what happened? I moved backwards relative to the ground...the faster the treadmill, the faster I moved backward. We even had to push each other and hold each other up to counter act friction.

hmmmmm. Infinite acceleration of treadmill vs non infinite thrust of engines = plane doesn't move.

It's perfect that you brought this up.
Imagine that your treadmill is moving at 5mph with you on the skateboard on it.
Your friend is holding you in place. The skateboard wheels are moving at 5mph.
Your friend pushes you forward at 5mph.
You are moving forward 5mph, but the skateboard wheels are moving freely at 10mph.

The plane does the same thing.

No it doesn't the treadmill's speed would increase until you had zero forward motion. You would not move.

According to the question, the treadmill does NOT have infinite acceleration. It moves backwards only as fast as the plane is moving forwards. The acceleration of the treadmill is limited by the acceleration of the plane.

If the plane is going 300mph forward, the treadmill can only go 300mph backwards.

Right if the plane is going forward 300 mph relative to the treadmill and the treadmill is going backwards at 300 mph relative to ground then the plane is not moving relative to ground.

No, you are changing the question. The plane is not moving 300mph relative to the treadmill. The plane is moving 300mph airspeed, relative to the air. The air is not moving, therefore the plaing is moving 300mph in a forward direction. It's true speed relative to the treadmill would be 600mph.

No you are changing the question. Go find the first post in the thread with the question and you will see. There is no debate on it the treadmill matches the ground speed of an object said object can move forward.

 

[waggy]

why are you guys still argueing with them? its kinda sad.