My wife got a new job and I think a lot public schools are going to get real bad over the next 5-10 years

[s0me0nesmind1]

Long video, but really dives deep into what has changed in our overall education system.

 

[MrSquished]

So I'm going to have to go back to my original point. Why are you bringing republicans into this?

Schools are employed workers are overwhelmingly Democrat voters
Schools are managed and administered by people who are overwhelmingly Democrat voters
The worst school districts in the nation are often in cities that are run by Democrats, meaning they hold the keys to the purse strings as far as budgets, tax revenue, etc...




They are also simply paid the market rate. We have degree windmills with education majors - and while yes - plenty are stupid... They are plentiful, hence why they can keep their pay rates low.

Pay isn't a choice. It's the market rate for your skills in relation to numerous other facts like cost of living, etc...

The free market is certainly not the be all end all. It has its flaws like anything else, and needs to be tempered. Teachers are underpaid and overworked is a solid generalization.

We see where this country is going when we have placed a lower emphasis on education. And it's not pretty.

I also enjoy life where I can speak to educated people about books and music and culture and the environment, not just about law and engineering and science, and appreciating the art that people with c certain degrees create - not every degree has to be science or numbers based to be useful. And for many roles just a good bachelors degree is beneficial. Should it cost as much as it does? That's up for debate, it is often overpriced for sure, but knowledge in general is valuable too. So while it should be cheaper, it's necessary. Can you understand that?

Also, history. Another degree most right of center folk will call useless. Actually, history is pretty fucking important, as we see more and more these days as well.

 

[Torn Mind]

Yes, people are taught how to be functional Human Beings within a particular Society. That just makes damn sense.

Naive and unprepared followers of manipulative masters of law.

Law is the firearms of intellectual subjects. A populace fully trained in law would result in intelligent, predatory anarchy.

The reason a secular society needs 'honest people" is so they subsidize, bailout, and be subservient to the dishonest ones.

 

[brianmanahan]

Like the knife-fights in Grease?

well kinda

more like couple of students grabbing hold of a skinny old shop teacher and shoving his face about an inch away from a running bench grinder

 

[Torn Mind]

well kinda

more like couple of students grabbing hold of a skinny old shop teacher and shoving his face about an inch away from a running bench grinder

Seems like an accurate representation of Anglo society. Push the limits and make the victim enforce his "victimhood"...led to the formation of trusts as a legal entity, the weakening of various Indian nations, etc.

Wouldn't be surprised about the racial and ethnic "tier list" back then.

 

[Torn Mind]

Long video, but really dives deep into what has changed in our overall education system.

I don't see how this video is relevant or that significant to public schools K through 12. I don't recall much politics being discussed during my schooling, and I lived in a predominantly Democrat district. Yes, there was promotion of some diversity...but for day-to-day matters, it didn't crop up. The county system has moved to standards-based grading now, dumping the A-E system I dealt with 16 years ago.

What I'm seeing and hearing from folks like the OP or former teacher on youtube is that public schools are basically shooting themselves in terms of teaching the hard tangible, skills and just getting students to accept and retain the information.

At some point, one must also accept most students don't give a fuck about much edification. Present Shakespeare to a class...most will check out....I've heard others say the following numerous times "how is this going to help me or matter in my life" regarding math....

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

I don't see how this video is relevant or that significant to public schools K through 12. I don't recall much politics being discussed during my schooling, and I lived in a predominantly Democrat district. Yes, there was promotion of some diversity...but for day-to-day matters, it didn't crop up. The county system has moved to standards-based grading now, dumping the A-E system I dealt with 16 years ago.

What I'm seeing and hearing from folks like the OP or former teacher on youtube is that public schools are basically shooting themselves in terms of teaching the hard tangible, skills and just getting students to accept and retain the information.

At some point, one must also accept most students don't give a fuck about much edification. Present Shakespeare to a class...most will check out....I've heard others say the following numerous times "how is this going to help me or matter in my life" regarding math....

Like I said, it's a long video but it goes into the Education system in general - not just college.

Is it not... a bit damning... that people that major in education... are the most uneducated in terms of general knowledge from GRE testing?



And I actually agree, I don't care for teaching of things like Shakespeare. It doesn't apply to my general life. It doesn't apply to my specialized life (my career). Teach it to someone who wants to specialize in theater or similar subjects.

Now Math - well, that's just silly if someone were to ask "how is this going to help me in life?" - I use it all the time.

 

[Torn Mind]

Like I said, it's a long video but it goes into the Education system in general - not just college.

Is it not... a bit damning... that people that major in education... are the most uneducated in terms of general knowledge from GRE testing?



And I actually agree, I don't care for teaching of things like Shakespeare. It doesn't apply to my general life. It doesn't apply to my specialized life (my career). Teach it to someone who wants to specialize in theater or similar subjects.

Now Math - well, that's just silly if someone were to ask "how is this going to help me in life?" - I use it all the time.

Well, maybe provide timestamps so the less relevant content can be skipped? The video is basically a short feature film in terms of length.

 

[MrSquished]

Like I said, it's a long video but it goes into the Education system in general - not just college.

Is it not... a bit damning... that people that major in education... are the most uneducated in terms of general knowledge from GRE testing?



And I actually agree, I don't care for teaching of things like Shakespeare. It doesn't apply to my general life. It doesn't apply to my specialized life (my career). Teach it to someone who wants to specialize in theater or similar subjects.

Now Math - well, that's just silly if someone were to ask "how is this going to help me in life?" - I use it all the time.

We can debate certain authors being a part of the curriculum, that's fine, but what amount of literature should be taught? Social studies? History? Geography?

 

[JEDI]

Sounds like the GOP master-plan to dumb-down the masses is progressing according to plan.

Common core, started by Repubs.
(no idea, but i'm guessing thats true)

 

[shortylickens]

And that's precisely why licenses and degrees are simply bottlenecks.

The market is the arbitrator of a good service. If someone sucks ass at cutting hair, people won't go to see them. If it's bad enough that people complain, the haircut companies that hire the hairdressers won't employ them.

The entire purpose of them has been defeated if we all agree that people that suck can still get them.

The point you repeatedly miss here is that hairdressers dont have to answer to a committee of dumb angry people who have no clue how to cut hair but think they need to micromanage every aspect of the hairdressers life on the job and off. They dont have PTA meetings for hairdressers. They dont get screamed at in an auditorium. Nobody is constantly changing the hairdressers curriculum all year long. They dont try to push "Gods" agenda on a hairdresser. They dont spend all day listening to propaganda about hairdressers on Fox News, telling them they are trying to rape our children and brainwash America. No hairdresser has ever been told by a 10 year old to fuck off. They dont get their pay slashed randomly. They dont have to keep buying supplies for their customers because nobody else has the money. They dont answer to a federal agency that wants a 5 percent increase in scores every year despite a 5 percent lower budget every year.

You dumb ignorant piece of shit.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Common core, started by Repubs.
(no idea, but i'm guessing thats true)

Lol as I stated. Education is 100% run by Democrats. Please tell me the logic of how you ascribe our education failure to Republicans.


My only guess is it will look like something from A Beautiful Mind with newspapers and lines connecting things all over.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

The point you repeatedly miss here is that hairdressers dont have to answer to a committee of dumb angry people who have no clue how to cut hair but think they need to micromanage every aspect of the hairdressers life on the job and off. They dont have PTA meetings for hairdressers. They dont get screamed at in an auditorium. Nobody is constantly changing the hairdressers curriculum all year long. They dont try to push "Gods" agenda on a hairdresser. They dont spend all day listening to propaganda about hairdressers on Fox News, telling them they are trying to rape our children and brainwash America. No hairdresser has ever been told by a 10 year old to fuck off. They dont get their pay slashed randomly. They dont have to keep buying supplies for their customers because nobody else has the money. They dont answer to a federal agency that wants a 5 percent increase in scores every year despite a 5 percent lower budget every year.

You dumb ignorant piece of shit.

Lol u mad bro?

Yes, hairdressers do have the equivalent, it's called every single customer.

 

[Captante]

The point you repeatedly miss here is that hairdressers dont have to answer to a committee of dumb angry people who have no clue how to cut hair but think they need to micromanage every aspect of the hairdressers life on the job and off. They dont have PTA meetings for hairdressers. They dont get screamed at in an auditorium. Nobody is constantly changing the hairdressers curriculum all year long. They dont try to push "Gods" agenda on a hairdresser. They dont spend all day listening to propaganda about hairdressers on Fox News, telling them they are trying to rape our children and brainwash America. No hairdresser has ever been told by a 10 year old to fuck off. They dont get their pay slashed randomly. They dont have to keep buying supplies for their customers because nobody else has the money. They dont answer to a federal agency that wants a 5 percent increase in scores every year despite a 5 percent lower budget every year.

You dumb ignorant piece of shit.

A+ rant! Would read again!

*(not to imply I disagree)

 

[Zorba]

Lol as I stated. Education is 100% run by Democrats. Please tell me the logic of how you ascribe our education failure to Republicans.


My only guess is it will look like something from A Beautiful Mind with newspapers and lines connecting things all over.

You are right the deep south has the best schools in the nation. Which is why all the high tech companies are based there.

 

[Zorba]

Slight correction.... the difference in professionalism between the staff and more importantly the people who hired, trained and managed that staff was night and day between your two daycare centers.

I can personally attest from the perspective of someone hiring people that a college degree in no way increases the chances of the person hired (no matter how enthusiastic) actually showing up for the 2ed day of work or being able to actually DO the job! Quite the opposite in fact.

Making a college degree a requirement in some jobs is a good idea however daycare worker isn't one of them. CPR certification and some emergency first aid classes might be good/useful requirements.

Yeah, that one all the ownership and management were college education as well, while the first one wasn't. They also paid their people much better better. I wouldn't say college should be required for daycare, but it does make an obvious difference on average.

For the record, CPR/First aid is required by the state to work in a daycare. Having people that have an understanding of how to teach kids is helpful though.

I'm willing to bet some of your issues is hiring college educated people for high school diploma level work. The good ones probably don't want to do it, and the bad ones still suck regardless of college education.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

You are right the deep south has the best schools in the nation. Which is why all the high tech companies are based there.

Hi. Fun fact... states... regardless of being red or blue or inbetween.... all have these things called local elections. Have you heard of them? They are especially applicable when discussing how much our school districts are failing, regardless of what state....

And yes, thank you - all the high tech companies ARE relocating here.

 

[Maxima1]

It's true... look at NYC as a prime example.
Of course the quality of individual schools varies widely across the 5 boroughs and many are really bad but overall the NYC school system is one of the best in America.
A HUGE part of the reason for this is the extensive funding of special subject-focused advanced schools for gifted/motivated kids.

Rigor has nothing to do with funding. What most people don’t get is that the students largely make the schools good, not the other way around.
Top SF high school sees record spike in failing grades after dropping merit-based admission system
In School Together, but Not Learning at the Same Rate - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

Arizona just dropped the requirement that teachers need a college degree, they just need to be enrolled in college.
I mean shit is going downwards fast.

You must not be aware of the push by liberals to demolish standards in education in order to hide the gaps between minorities and whites/Asians, so employers will have more trouble knowing the difference. They’re also screwing with university tiers (if they mismatch students, they have to lower standards or more people will “fail upwards” like in the 80s and 90s).

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-...wn-new-teachers-mandatory-math-test-1.5740361
https://edsource.org/2021/universit...sat-and-act-with-new-standardized-test/663870

Quick google told me:
Houston ISD: $10,561 per student
Katy ISD: $8,992 per student
What does that mean? It's CLEARLY not a money problem.

Yup. I went to a NY high school. Imagine if the students got to pocket some of that? NY has outrageously high spending per student, but due to a lack of rigor, it’s pretty crappy for a lot of students and that’s mostly a choice. For example, I took a civics class that was sort of a mishmash of elements within US Government and Economics college courses. Guess who else is expected to also pass that class? IEP students. Can you imagine the rigor? Lol Although I say this, college is increasingly just google-all-the-test-answers, since many colleges don't even bother with stuff like lockdown browser but are offering more and more classes online, which covid obviously accelarated the trend by several years.

It’s disturbing how these classes duplicate a lot of the first two years of college. Interestingly, I think my school allowed even 11th graders to take a dual enrollment English class if they drove all the way to the college, yet someone who does 11th and 12th grade English would have no credits. And the college has the nerve to test you for placement in remedial English even if you had As in 11th/12th grade English. The first English class in college is generally incredibly easy (was even easier than my 12th grade English class, in my case) because it is a rhetoric class.

Far as I'm aware they were involved in passing the bill to not require a degree to teach. (although to be fair the severe teacher-shortage and the need to at least have "bodies" to mind the store in classrooms had to have been a factor)
What feasible alternative would you offer to reducing qualifications?

Teacher shortage is completely artificial. Class size increase alone without addressing some of the inane hoops (and credential creep of requiring masters) would easily address the “shortage” without harming grades. There is also a crazy increase in admin and support staff of which some would be teaching instead if they stopped bloating education budgets with that nonsense.

I'm very thankful my nieces go to a public education system in a state where higher education is required and specific teacher training as well before you can get certified. They're in better hands and I know this for sure.

I had a NY high school education. It was crap. CA even revoked my Cal Grant because they didn’t accept my NY “advanced regents diploma” even though one of my parents had residency in CA (you would think there would be an exception for this). Calculus, English, Global History, US History, US Government, Physics, Chemistry, Earth Science, Biology etc. All of it didn’t count for college credit.

We need to start paying teachers more and respecting them more. That's how we solve the teacher shortage, not cutting requirements. That is just a downhill trajectory

According to bls.gov, teachers are comparable on average to a lot of other college grads, but they also do about 20-25% less work. In fact, in middle school I had a period where I would help one of the school staff (I was grading most of the stuff for one of the teachers). Looking at CA, they’re getting closer to $90k just for elementary. That’s comparable with hours adjusted to CA engineers.

But there is a definite benefit to getting a degree and that is you tend to vote Democrat. It gets even more statistically likely when you get a graduate degree such as a masters and by PhD the difference is staggering. So while it's not for everyone a degree in general is better for society.

If you're overeducated and don't make a lot, yeah. Otherwise increasing income trends conservative.

Just the level of professionalism (on average) between a college grad and a HS grad is completely different.

Why would that be (see below of the “professionalism” in college discussion boards)? What degrees are common? The first two years of college is mostly just general education I.e., what AP/CLEP/dual enrollment in high school covers, and most majors don’t really have any hands-on experience. For many, even for core upper division classes, it’s just cram study material off of power points to do well on midterm and final exam and busywork group projects that dilute the value of your grade in the course.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/kellymartinez/students-on-discussion-board-posts-who-are-honestly-trying

Amazing how when a political party demonizes a profession for decades, cuts funding to it like crazy, and pays like shit, no body wants to do it.

Democrats keep lying that it pays like shit because it cynically helps them win elections. They say that even here in CA. Look at this load from Abrams, and funny viewing the comments many are acting similar to conservatives venting about teachers.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1539936969001680897

 

[Captante]

the students largely make the schools good

The above was about as far as I made it....

 

[MrSquished]

Lol as I stated. Education is 100% run by Democrats. Please tell me the logic of how you ascribe our education failure to Republicans.


My only guess is it will look like something from A Beautiful Mind with newspapers and lines connecting things all over.

No it isn't. And you can't compare the systemic and structural poverty and racism that controls many cities and blame it on Democrats either. But you love in a fantasy world where you can't respond to basic questions. Good luck in la la land

 

[Captante]

Yeah, that one all the ownership and management were college education as well, while the first one wasn't. They also paid their people much better better. I wouldn't say college should be required for daycare, but it does make an obvious difference on average.

For the record, CPR/First aid is required by the state to work in a daycare. Having people that have an understanding of how to teach kids is helpful though.

I'm willing to bet some of your issues is hiring college educated people for high school diploma level work. The good ones probably don't want to do it, and the bad ones still suck regardless of college education.

NOT the only reason.... I've seen complete idiots with college degree's running companies too. (having said that hiring college graduates does improve the odds of a functional brain)

Hiring and keeping the right people needs to be the top priority and decent pay + benefits is the real key there. Treat good employees right and they'll stay.

 

[HomerJS]

School choice is the only way, where the people can have a vote instead of being forced to accept low-standards.

Only then will the bad schools dissolve, and higher standards be put in place.

Why improve if you don't have to? Those tax dollars are coming in no matter what.


It's also not always a poor vs. rich scenario. The city of Houston and surrounding areas have absolute shit for public schools - they have no problem with tax dollars, they can tax and take as much money as possible. Their ultimate cost per student is outrageously high, yet the quality is still low.

Vouchers are for a dollar amount so it doesn’t get poor kids into the better schools. For real choice why not offer a voucher for a years tuition that all accredited schools must accept?

 

[Zorba]

Hi. Fun fact... states... regardless of being red or blue or inbetween.... all have these things called local elections. Have you heard of them? They are especially applicable when discussing how much our school districts are failing, regardless of what state....

And yes, thank you - all the high tech companies ARE relocating here.

So you think rural, southern school districts are ran by liberals/democrats? Also school funding and requirements are largely set at the state level, not local level.

 

[Torn Mind]

And that's precisely why licenses and degrees are simply bottlenecks.

The market is the arbitrator of a good service. If someone sucks ass at cutting hair, people won't go to see them. If it's bad enough that people complain, the haircut companies that hire the hairdressers won't employ them.

The entire purpose of them has been defeated if we all agree that people that suck can still get them.

Licenses and degrees serve two purposes.

A heuristic for people to quickly prove a bare minimum of competency and understanding of fundamentals.

A revenue maker for the state and book publishers.


I might that this discussion is so superficial with everyone just parroting political talking points.

For certain industries, it is a way to protect and promote business for the legitimate (such as contractors).

Being licensed is not an indicator of intuitive mastery, ethical purity, or that the individual was internally motivated. Or basically to let your guard down and blindly trust them simply because they are professionals.

 

[ch33zw1z]

S1M makes his return debut! Good read guys!