My wife got a new job and I think a lot public schools are going to get real bad over the next 5-10 years

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Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
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So... everything that particular party does?




I'm legit just trying to have a conversation. You're blaming GOP, but unless you're in some random place I'm not aware of - there are virtually zero "GOP" colleges (save for maybe a religious one) or government-run school districts. Like... they are pretty much non-existent entirely.


The GOP in AZ specifically was what I was referring to and the topic at-hand.

Far as I'm aware they were involved in passing the bill to not require a degree to teach. (although to be fair the severe teacher-shortage and the need to at least have "bodies" to mind the store in classrooms had to have been a factor)

And issues with "bloated bureaucracy" are not specific to either party.... more like a human condition!
 
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
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Of course there are bureaucratic bullshit rules and some have to do with licensing, and there is unnecessary pressure for everyone to get a college degree, and many people don't need a college degree. I am not disputing this


And I am all for boosting trade school exposure and giving grants and scholarships for that type of learning and training.

But to start comparing educators to taxi drivers and hairdressers and plumbers. This doesn't compute.

An educator needs a degree to make them a more well-rounded person along with specific teacher related courses and then to pass a test related to those.
 

Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
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An educator needs a degree to make them a more well-rounded person along with specific teacher related courses and then to pass a test related to those.


Funny how the idea that people who have never been to college are incapable of teaching came about ... especially elementary-school classes. (I could ALMOST do that!)

There was a time when having a 4-year college degree almost automatically meant something more then mommy and daddy being loaded or that you've taken on soul-crushing amounts of student-loan debt.

That time has passed.

And what if candidates meeting those requirements are so few and far between that you no longer have enough teachers to staff schools in any capacity? (this is the current reality regardless of the reasons for it)

What feasible alternative would you offer to reducing qualifications?
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
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Funny how the very idea that people who have never been to college are incapable of teaching... especially elementary-school classes.

There was a time when having a 4-year college degree almost automatically meant something more then mommy and daddy being loaded or that you've taken on soul-crushing amounts of student-loan debt.

That time has passed.

And what if candidates meeting those requirements are so few and far between that you no longer have enough teachers to staff schools in any capacity? (this is the current reality regardless of the reasons for it)

What feasible alternative would you offer to reducing qualifications?
Elementary School is the foundation of your learning for math and reading and writing. If you don't have those taught by the right person you are not going to do well in junior high and high school. I don't understand how people dismiss the importance of elementary school learning. It is foundational. And you also need a teacher who has specific teacher training to be able to spot and understand different children. Not every child learns exactly the same. To be able to manage individuals and be able to analyze and observe and react.

This is not a job for a high school graduate. I just disagree completely.

I'm very thankful my nieces go to a public education system in a state where higher education is required and specific teacher training as well before you can get certified. They're in better hands and I know this for sure.
 

Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
30,316
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Elementary School is the foundation of your learning for math and reading and writing. If you don't have those taught by the right person you are not going to do well in junior high and high school. I don't understand how people dismiss the importance of elementary school learning. It is foundational. And you also need a teacher who has specific teacher training to be able to spot and understand different children. Not every child learns exactly the same. To be able to manage individuals and be able to analyze and observe and react.

This is not a job for a high school graduate. I just disagree completely.

I'm very thankful my nieces go to a public education system in a state where higher education is required and specific teacher training as well before you can get certified. They're in better hands and I know this for sure.


Who said anything about not needing a degree for some subjects or a teaching-certificate that requires a candidate to prove they can teach?

And you've never known anyone without a teaching degree who was a great teacher?

EVERY teacher you had in school was genuinely good at it? :p

Don't lie. ;)



EDIT: Connecticut btw has similar laws/requirements to NJ/NY in-place for teachers. Moving forward however I'm not sure how we will be able to continue to fully staff public schools unless we lower the hiring bar.
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
48,094
37,298
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When I finally got pissed and discovered ridesharing apps was when I was still having to have cab drivers that had to phone in credit card charges, and this was... christ... not that long ago of about ~6 years ago or so.


I refuse to use a cab until they:
1) Make the booking process easier
2) Easily accept credit cards.
3) Clean their damn cabs and make them stop smelling like shit.

I've been in ubers where they offer me bottle waters had air fresheners all over - they were clean - and driver was offering me chargers for my phone, etc... Not that I care about any of those things. It's just the difference between someone who has competition and those that don't.

I've found a lot of this to be very location dependent. Like abroad and some places in the US the cabs are fine. Other places like in NYC they suck. Uber has similar variability in my experience and now in some cases costs more than a cab, occasionally way more. If I'm in say Dallas I might Uber because the city has about a dozen cabs. NYC, Chicago, Boston, etc? Not so much.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
23,083
21,203
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Who said anything about not needing a degree for some subjects or a teaching-certificate that requires a candidate to prove they can teach?

And you've never known anyone without a teaching degree who was a great teacher?

EVERY teacher you had in school was genuinely good at it? :p

Don't lie. ;)



EDIT: Connecticut btw has similar laws/requirements to NJ/NY in-place for teachers. Moving forward however I'm not sure how we will be able to continue to fully staff public schools unless we lower the hiring bar.

No not every teacher is great. But that goes for any job. I am not implying getting a degree automatically makes you great at your job, but that is the same for many jobs that actually need a a degree, from engineers to lawyers to doctors to a ton of careers. There will be bad engineers, bad lawyers and bad doctors and bad lots of people with degrees necessary in their field. But having certain requirements is still necessary for those jobs, and that includes teaching.

We need to start paying teachers more and respecting them more. That's how we solve the teacher shortage, not cutting requirements. That is just a downhill trajectory
 
Nov 8, 2012
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No not every teacher is great. But that goes for any job. I am not implying getting a degree automatically makes you great at your job, but that is the same for many jobs that actually need a a degree, from engineers to lawyers to doctors to a ton of careers. There will be bad engineers, bad lawyers and bad doctors and bad lots of people with degrees necessary in their field. But having certain requirements is still necessary for those jobs, and that includes teaching.

We need to start paying teachers more and respecting them more. That's how we solve the teacher shortage, not cutting requirements. That is just a downhill trajectory

And that's precisely why licenses and degrees are simply bottlenecks.

The market is the arbitrator of a good service. If someone sucks ass at cutting hair, people won't go to see them. If it's bad enough that people complain, the haircut companies that hire the hairdressers won't employ them.

The entire purpose of them has been defeated if we all agree that people that suck can still get them.
 
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
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And that's precisely why licenses and degrees are simply bottlenecks.

The market is the arbitrator of a good service. If someone sucks ass at cutting hair, people won't go to see them. If it's bad enough that people complain, the haircut companies that hire the hairdressers won't employ them.

The entire purpose of them has been defeated if we all agree that people that suck can still get them.
If you haven't caught up yet we're not talking about hairdressers. We're talking about educators. Comparing the two is not logical.
 
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
23,083
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Sounds good to me.... I doubt it happens anytime soon though.
I will say though even though I know colleges have started charging insane prices, and there are too many people that may be going to colleges that aren't ready or don't need it and for them going is just getting into debt.

Would like to fix that problem.

But there is a definite benefit to getting a degree and that is you tend to vote Democrat. It gets even more statistically likely when you get a graduate degree such as a masters and by PhD the difference is staggering. So while it's not for everyone a degree in general is better for society.
 
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Nov 8, 2012
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I will say though even though I know colleges have started charging insane prices, and there are too many people that may be going to colleges that aren't ready or don't need it and for them going is just getting into debt.

Would like to fix that problem.

But there is a definite benefit to getting a degree and that is you tend to vote Democrat. It gets even more statistically likely when you get a graduate degree such as a masters and by PhD the difference is staggering. So while it's not for everyone a degree in general is better for society.
Lol if only that was actually an overall truthful statement.

It varies wildly depending on major.

Sadly, an English lit masters is a laughable comparison to an engineering degree. But you go ahead and keep doing that you cutie you.
 
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Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
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Maybe for kindergarten first grade. But that's it. New Jersey teachers have to have a bachelor's and a completed teachers preparation program, and pass exams. Just hiring some schmuck out of high school that Just enrolled in college is a terrible idea.

You have to be educated to educate. The fact that Americans don't think so is just part of the problem in this country. Even in second and third grade kids have different ways of learning whether visual or audio, or they may have some learning issues. It's not a one size fits all thing. You need an educated teacher prepared to educate that can give a better schooling to these children. I see it with my nieces. But we are New Jersey with the number two public education program in the country. I can understand why people in Texas don't get this.

And here are teachers have to have a bachelor's with a certain amount of credits completed plus an advanced teacher preparation program, and then pass tests based on these things, before getting a certificate to teach.

I mean having someone that just graduated from high school try to teach the foundations of math or reading to young children, they're very formative years, these teachers better have some teaching knowledge. I can't believe you don't think so It's pretty crazy.
My daughter spent her first 4 years going to a daycare that mostly hired girls fresh out of high school or older women with no higher ed. We then moved her to a different daycare were nearly everyone had a college degree. The difference was night and day.

Just the level of professionalism (on average) between a college grad and a HS grad is completely different.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,244
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Like you said though - at the end of the day it's just a piece of paper. It has no bearing on how helpful or good the teacher is.

The truth is: At the end of the day ALL degree requirements are simply a creation of bottle-neck. It is a means of limiting people, not necessarily if they are any good at the job itself.


Example: Cab drivers required "licenses" in order to be a cab driver. In places like NYC my understanding is it is the equivalency of gold to have one. Fares were always overpriced. The cabs were never well kept, vacuumed, cleaned. Stains and holes in the seats everywhere. They would always groan about asking for a credit card payment because they had to manually phone it in. That was, of course, until services like uber essentially took away the bottle-neck.

Think about it. Think about something like.... a "hairdresser" in many states, you need a LICENSE/accreditation from a school in order to work in that industry. Is that really necessary? If someone sucks ass at cutting hair, no one will go to them. Hell, plenty of people grow up learning to cut hair out of their house just from doing it with kids and such.



Take any job - you can say you need a license to do it. It doesn't actually increase the skill, it just makes a bottleneck where it is more difficult to enter a given market/job.
Yeah, who needs a degreed engineer to design bridges, or airplanes, and definitely don't need college educated doctors. Jim Bob down the street can do open heart surgery too.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,244
10,818
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The GOP in AZ specifically was what I was referring to and the topic at-hand.

Far as I'm aware they were involved in passing the bill to not require a degree to teach. (although to be fair the severe teacher-shortage and the need to at least have "bodies" to mind the store in classrooms had to have been a factor)

And issues with "bloated bureaucracy" are not specific to either party.... more like a human condition!
Amazing how when a political party demonizes a profession for decades, cuts funding to it like crazy, and pays like shit, no body wants to do it. My very republican in-laws get so pissed if they hear about teachers wanting to make more than 30K a year. Apparently if they want to eat, they didn't get into teaching "for the right reasons."
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,244
10,818
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MissedThePoint.jpg
You are the one that said this: "Take any job - you can say you need a license to do it. It doesn't actually increase the skill, it just makes a bottleneck where it is more difficult to enter a given market/job."

Engineers and Doctors are licensed.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
23,083
21,203
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Lol if only that was actually an overall truthful statement.

It varies wildly depending on major.

Sadly, an English lit masters is a laughable comparison to an engineering degree. But you go ahead and keep doing that you cutie you.

I have not seen breakdowns by major, care to provide a source?

Regardless, I understand you don't appreciate, oh things like literature, philosophy and just a general ability to understand the things that drive and entertain or education humanity or drive the human consciousness, but it is still important that people carry the torch.

I know I know, all useless. But it's really not. If all we had were engineers and doctors and lawyers and accountants and architects and chemists that were educated, this would be one shitty society.
 
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
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Amazing how when a political party demonizes a profession for decades, cuts funding to it like crazy, and pays like shit, no body wants to do it. My very republican in-laws get so pissed if they hear about teachers wanting to make more than 30K a year. Apparently if they want to eat, they didn't get into teaching "for the right reasons."

That's just horrible. I have dated numerous teachers. They bust their asses and are so underappreciated, even in blue states that pay them better, just less so.
 
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Torn Mind

Lifer
Nov 25, 2012
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If you haven't caught up yet we're not talking about hairdressers. We're talking about educators. Comparing the two is not logical.
I can safely say that teachers are not morals nor do they make people "better". Their job is still to make taxable heads out of the students in the classroom. That means getting them to learn income-earning methods...while also not being educate in ways to "cheat" the "pay-to-play" system.

Plumbers are teachers. They utilize the old apprenticeship system. The cert system is stringent and not for the faint of heart, although the learner can get paid while being trained and educated to learn the codes and techniques. Plus some union lobbying/legal training as well.
 

Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
30,316
10,814
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My daughter spent her first 4 years going to a daycare that mostly hired girls fresh out of high school or older women with no higher ed. We then moved her to a different daycare were nearly everyone had a college degree. The difference was night and day.

Just the level of professionalism (on average) between a college grad and a HS grad is completely different.


Slight correction.... the difference in professionalism between the staff and more importantly the people who hired, trained and managed that staff was night and day between your two daycare centers.

I can personally attest from the perspective of someone hiring people that a college degree in no way increases the chances of the person hired (no matter how enthusiastic) actually showing up for the 2ed day of work or being able to actually DO the job! Quite the opposite in fact.

Making a college degree a requirement in some jobs is a good idea however daycare worker isn't one of them. CPR certification and some emergency first aid classes might be good/useful requirements.
 
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Nov 8, 2012
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You are the one that said this: "Take any job - you can say you need a license to do it. It doesn't actually increase the skill, it just makes a bottleneck where it is more difficult to enter a given market/job."

Engineers and Doctors are licensed.

Right, but understand what a bottleneck is. It's specifically in reference to the point of entry, in order to drive out competition as much as possible.

Which would you rather take - an engineer with 20 years of experience doing that exact practice - but without whatever license you're talking about... or someone fresh out of school with their degree/certificate/license?
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
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I can safely say that teachers are not morals nor do they make people "better". Their job is still to make taxable heads out of the students in the classroom. That means getting them to learn income-earning methods...while also not being educate in ways to "cheat" the "pay-to-play" system.

Plumbers are teachers. They utilize the old apprenticeship system. The cert system is stringent and not for the faint of heart, although the learner can get paid while being trained and educated to learn the codes and techniques. Plus some union lobbying/legal training as well.

Yes, people are taught how to be functional Human Beings within a particular Society. That just makes damn sense.
 
Nov 8, 2012
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Amazing how when a political party demonizes a profession for decades, cuts funding to it like crazy, and pays like shit, no body wants to do it. My very republican in-laws get so pissed if they hear about teachers wanting to make more than 30K a year. Apparently if they want to eat, they didn't get into teaching "for the right reasons."

So I'm going to have to go back to my original point. Why are you bringing republicans into this?

Schools are employed workers are overwhelmingly Democrat voters
Schools are managed and administered by people who are overwhelmingly Democrat voters
The worst school districts in the nation are often in cities that are run by Democrats, meaning they hold the keys to the purse strings as far as budgets, tax revenue, etc...




They are also simply paid the market rate. We have degree windmills with education majors - and while yes - plenty are stupid... They are plentiful, hence why they can keep their pay rates low.

Pay isn't a choice. It's the market rate for your skills in relation to numerous other facts like cost of living, etc...