My actual stance on Gun control and why

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snakesnfrogs

Banned
Mar 1, 2001
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<<

<< Waiting periods do nothing. >>



what a waiting period does is make sure people have a cool head when they purchase a gun, they make sure that somebody in aheat of rage goes out and buys a gun and shoots someone. thats why we have them
>>




someone in a fit of rage most likely isn't gonna go down to the local gun shop and get a gun legally in the first place---especially if their intent is to harm someone else.
 

Bleep

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Not having weighed in on any of the posts regarding gun control I have finally decided to do so now. I am a life member of the NRA I am also a range control officer of one of the largest gun ranges in Nebraska. I believe in the absolute right of any american who is not mentally ill or a convicted felon to have the right to own a Handgun or Long gun. But some of the posts made by Ufwald are so off base that they hurt the efforts of the Gun Lobby as coming on as a &quot;Gun Nut&quot; and very radical, I also resent personally the term Liberal to berate or deride persons that do not conform to your beliefs regarding gun control. I must assure you that Liberal does not mean anti gun and to say otherwise is nothing but pervision of the truth. I live in a city that is 85% registered democrat but a recent poll found that 88% of the households own at least one gun 60% own at least 1 handgun. Our club membership of 208 has 94 democrats or what you call liberals. Has you ever given a thought that a person can be a so called Liberal (Democrat) and still not be in favor of gun control? if not you need to learn more about the people that inhabit this great nation. My suggestion is that if you want to convince anyone to your way of thinking you should think a little more on your methods and most of all your retoric.
Bleep
 
May 16, 2000
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~~~Obviously anything in the wrong hands can be prove to be harmful, and of course something that gives someone as much power and authority as a gun does can make a major difference one way or another.~~~

This is very true...In fact I often prove this point by demonstrating how many ways I could kill a human with a piece of paper (don't laugh, you'd be surprised). However it isn't a 'gun' that does this, it's any power. Who is more powerful, a man with a crossbow, a man with a gun, or a man with enough money to buy either to kill the other? Anything that tips the power scale is dangerous (including training or education).

~~~And also..a gun is something that I would think you never really want to use, and when the moment comes up, who's to say it will do what you want it to? Under the stress of the situation, you can easily misfire, and shoot a victim instead of a suspect. In your first instance, with the woman, who's to say you couldn't have missed and hit her isntead. Who's to say that you someone else in a similar situation, who's going to use their gun for the first time doesn't make a mistake? Obviously none of it happened, but easily &quot;could have&quot;, and has in the past.~~~

I, for one, am aware of this. That's why I've put hundreds of hours into training, including professional training. That's why I've fired more rounds through my weapons than an average military unit. There are training programs to simulate stressful situations to prepare you for real encounters. Even with all that you can never be sure what will happen, some people aren't meant to defend, it's a personality thing. It's nothing to be ashamed of either. If someone finds that they are unable to use their weapon that's fine, just don't carry one from then on. Find another solution. But for those of us who can (and in all the situations I've been in I know I'm one) we deserve the right to do so.

~~~Could crime occur in a world without guns? Definitely, but it would change things a whole lot.~~~

No it wouldn't. At all. Guns are new, crime is old. If there was no gunpowder, if you could snap your fingers and it didn't work on the planet anymore, crime wouldn't change in the least. Just like hundreds of years ago people would kill with bows, knives, swords, bare hands. The difference is that there is NO 70yr old woman with arthritis in the world that could stop me from taking her purse in hand to hand combat. But there is no one on the planet that can take a purse away from a 70yr old woman with arthritis in a wheelchair who has a gun and knows how to use it.

~~~You must agree that metal detectors as airports are for the benefits of the passengers, as it takes out the possibility that someone could do harm in that manner.

It doesn't remove the possibility, it lessens it. Very recently (like a few years ago) even in America people found ways to get guns onto planes. It's just a good step in the right direction.

~~~Without a gun, it'd be nearly impossible to take over a plane, do harm to other passengers, or otherwise commit a harmful crime. Someone definitely could hurt someone else with the bare hands, but a gun would make it a tad easier.~~~

Not at all...in fact a gun isn't that useful of a weapon compared to others, especially in plane takeovers. A gun can accidentally discharge, accidentally depressurize the cabin, it can be jammed, taken away, dropped, your sites could be off, you can also shoot someone many many times without any affect. My personal preference would be a failsafed explosive device with multiple detonation controls. Overall it's the best success rate.

~~~Some schools even have them, do you agree that despite the inconvenience of it all, that it would be a safer place there without any possibility of someone carrying a gun on campus?~~~

Nope, not at all. I personally like thinking that in case of emergency there may be backup available. Until campuses began specifically prohibiting guns I always had mine. Furthermore even after the bans I am always armed (throwing knives and some form of melee weapon mostly). I refuse that the government or a company, or a school can demand that I be unsafe while refusing to punish criminals. I won't have it. I'll go to jail, in fact I'll die before I allow another person to dictate my level of security.



I actually agree with much of what you said for the general populace, but we're not all the general populace and laws are notoriously without exception. As I've stated, it's irrelevant because this is not a country that will ever surrender it's weapons peacefully...and anyone who wants them to had better be prepared for the carnage that could follow such a demand.
 

soapdish

Senior member
Nov 20, 2000
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ulfwald thinks he is doing the world a favor, but he isn't.



Gun control ain't keeping honest citizens from owning guns, its about keeping the dishonest from own guns.


Problem is... Ulfwald can't figure out which one of those two groups he belongs to.



Hell, Im as liberal as you can get. Im left liberal to the point that I piss off many conservatives just by my breathing, but I do own a gun.

A 38. I dont keep it loaded, but I do keep a speed loader nearby.

Thats gun control for you. Someone who is more afraid of their damn handgun than the criminal. Oh, sure, say that is wrong, but I wont be caught blowing away my only son, or a cop, by accident.

It is something ulfwald, in his epitomy of arrogance, can't understand...

The gun control nuts are here to help everybody. We arent gun grabbers; it is the NRA in their mis-directed zeal who portrays us as such... for their own political agenda.

Don't by into it. You are smarter than that.
 

Kueay

Banned
Apr 15, 2001
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Wow, do you carry your gun around everywhere you go or something? I sure wouldn't want to piss you off.

And firing a gun at a mans leg who has a knife at your girlfriends throat is a good way to get her killed. Think, then act. I supose someone was lucky that day.
 
Feb 10, 2000
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I have certainly had my differences with Ulf's approach, but I actually find this post relatively persuasive. As many others have already said, I think Ulf has often weakened his case through his tone.
 
May 16, 2000
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~~~Gun control ain't keeping honest citizens from owning guns, its about keeping the dishonest from own guns.~~~

Moderate gun control (background checks, licensing, waiting periods) don't hurt anyone. But extremeists who want all guns taken away are a serious threat. Also no gun control measure enacted has ever reduced serious crime. Criminals operate by different rules than you or I. Gun control just provides a level of caution against crimes of passion and some types of accidents, that's all.


~~~Problem is... Ulfwald can't figure out which one of those two groups he belongs to.~~~

Why? What makes you say that, and who are you to make that call? Are you a psychologist? A telepathic? I don't see any support of your positions here, nor do I see you logically or reasonably refuting previous statements. If you wish to debate, you'd better do it right and not resort to mindless character assassination.

~~~Thats gun control for you. Someone who is more afraid of their damn handgun than the criminal. Oh, sure, say that is wrong, but I wont be caught blowing away my only son, or a cop, by accident.~~~

Good for you, I'm glad you're responsible.

~~~It is something ulfwald, in his epitomy of arrogance, can't understand...~~~

Still not seeing anything but YOUR arrogance. I haven't kept up on all the older posts, so I could be missing stuff...but so far Ulfwalds posts have been clear, concise and well thought out. If you want to be taken seriously I'd suggest you try the same.

~~~it is the NRA in their mis-directed zeal who portrays us as such... for their own political agenda. Don't by into it. You are smarter than that.~~~

Now now, let's not point fingers. The NRA is rightly concerned. Many nations have been through what we're going through. And most of them have lost ALL their gun rights. Remember that America is a child, still ripe with problems and our government...well I'm not even gonna start that discussion here. Lets just say the NRA has reason to be cautious.
 

chansen

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Can you have an effective background check without a waiting period? I mean, are all criminal and mental records available on some database somewhere, or does someone actually have to find a piece of paper somewhere?

Further, the concept of a waiting period is just seems basic common sense to me. I can see the NRA approach to many other gun control issues, but not this one. What is the argument against waiting periods? Self-defense? Constitutional? I can't find one that holds water. I don't want to be argumentative, just someone tell me why not.

Conversely, the reason why seems perfectly acceptable. We don't want hotheads, even hetheads with clean records, with guns.

Regards,
Craig
 

BarbeQueGuy

Senior member
Jan 23, 2001
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I believe in gun enforcement, not over control, gun laws are only making criminals out of law abiding citizens.

I believe it is my right to own a gun, a right given me by the constitution, a constitution that I am willing to fight to uphold.

I DO NOT own a gun because I know in my heart I can not take another's life, therefore I am a responsible gun non-owner.

Up till this point, I have been blessed and have been able to live, work, and play in an area that is relatively safe and have had no need to defend myself (or family) with such deadly force.

But, come that day that I am so provoked to bears arms, be it a criminal, an invasion by a foreign power, or our own tyranical government, I will fight for my right[/i] to bear arms.
 
May 16, 2000
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I totally agree about the waiting list garbage. I don't mind waiting a few days, or even a few weeks for my ok to buy (as long as retailers don't take advantage of it to deny you sale prices :cool:).

As for background checks many many resources take no time at all. A quick run through NCIC, WACSIC, FBI, NSA, and so on can be done in about 15-20 minutes. However some of the other records searches happen over the course of a day or two.

When I have to investigate someone it generally takes me about 2 weeks of part time work to establish a good profile on them...and I don't have access to 'official' methods of research.
 

brxndxn

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2001
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It's great that Americans can arm themselves. That way, even though everyone isn't armed, it stops many many crimes. The criminals never know which ones aren't armed - which basically deters many. In Europe, with their socialist/liberal style, they have much higher rates of stolen property and confrontations because criminals know people aren't armed (with a gun, at least.)

I also hate how Europe is so quick to criticize the US by pointing out the stance on guns. You'd think they'd be a little more thankful to a country that has saved their ass.

Who the hell is afraid of Pepper Spray?
 

Bignate603

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
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I believe that we have rights to reasonably defend ourselves because criminals will do so even while it's against the law. Many weapons they carry already come from illegal channels. They are going to have them, can a normal person have some thing that stands up to that?
 

RGN

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2000
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<< Why do I think we need gun control? Well Ulfwald, since you like stories so much... :p

I don't know, maybe it was six years ago there was an armed robbery in my town. Some guys wife was held at gunpoint while the criminals stole all his valuables. Well the criminals left, but this guy (a gun owner) was still afraid they would come back. He was somewhere upstairs in his house when the cops came in. He heard them and fired his shotgun at one, and fatally wounded him. The police officer died a few days later, he was a close family friend and it sickened me. Someone I knew, someone I cared about was needlessly killed by a gun.

If gun control was used in the first place, the criminals could've never held his wife at gunpoint. If some people weren't so quick to grab their gun, then maybe a lot less people would die.
>>



Ok, let me get this straight. A stupid SOB shot a cop and you want to 'ban' guns because if there were no guns your friend would have not died?

How about we ban stupid people?

I'm sorry for the Officer that got shot. That is wrong and should not have happened. BUT, your view is VERY simplistic. There is a lot of gun control today. It would have never prevented this kind of accedent. Even in britan and Australia where long guns are permitted this would still have taken place. Not to mention that even if this guy didn't have a gun, the god damn criminal that was robbing him most likely would have.

This was a freak accident. It was caused by fear and stupidity. Firing a shotgun is not like shooting a handgun. There is more purpose.

There will always be guns. Maye not for purchase at a store... If you don't believe that, I've got some lakeside property in arizona you sell you. Its real nice there, snow banks inthe winter and it never gets over 60 in the summer.

 

damocles

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Ufwald, thanks for the insight in to your reasoning

Here is my stance on this topic which is now popping up weekly.

Nobody in ANY of these debates has yet to change their mind that i have seen.

I can only see 2 situations where somebody here might change

A) A situation like Ufwald's where a weapon prevents crime/violence may be enough to make someone change their stance towards reducing gun control

B) A misued weapon injuring an innocent person may make a pro-firearms person decide that more gun control is needed.



 

1967mustangman

Senior member
May 31, 2001
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I hate to be cliche but does antbody actually think gun control will take away guns from anybody but law-abiding citizens?
 

TaylorD

Diamond Member
May 13, 2000
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I couldn't agree more Ulfwald....

My question is, where the hell do you live that you can get a permit to carry a concealed handgun?

(Where I'm from, you need to go before a judge and convince him or her that you need a gun to protect your life at all times...)

Is it just easier to get where you live? Or do you need it to protect your life for some reason?
 

Ulfwald

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
May 27, 2000
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I live in Georgia, and GA ia a SHALL ISSUE state. which means that if you do not have a criminal record, then you will be able to get your permit.

I used to work as a volunter law enforcement, I put people in jail, so I pack just in case i am ever accosted by one that may have gotten out.
 

OS

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
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No doubt others here have a different impression of me, but I don't believe guns should be banned either. I do believe the world would be better off if guns were never invented, but now that it's done, access shouldn't be limited to only criminals.

My parents are both from taiwan and what they say about guns in america is this; everyone can own one, not just criminals. They tend to like it, though they don't own any guns. In Taiwan, guns are completely illegal, and of course only the criminals have them. That isn't the case here.

But wait periods should stay, that way no one who is emotional will go out buy one and impulse and shoot someone.

And Ulfwald, don't try to insult our intelligence by telling us that knives are more/equally deadly as guns :p

All that being said, I do hope that a better nonlethal medium range self defense weapon is invented in the near future, so that self defense can be still be achieved but reducing the amount of tragedies involving guns.

 
Feb 10, 2000
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<< I couldn't agree more Ulfwald....

My question is, where the hell do you live that you can get a permit to carry a concealed handgun?

(Where I'm from, you need to go before a judge and convince him or her that you need a gun to protect your life at all times...)

Is it just easier to get where you live? Or do you need it to protect your life for some reason?
>>



Many states (including Oklahoma, where I live) have VERY liberal laws on concealed carry. You do not have to articulate any specific need for a CC permit, and the presumption is that you are allowed to carry unless your personal history proves otherwise. It is kind of weird, in that restaurants often have little &quot;no concealed weapons&quot; signs that resemble no smoking signs.
 
Feb 10, 2000
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<< I used to work as a volunter law enforcement, I put people in jail, so I pack just in case i am ever accosted by one that may have gotten out. >>



Ulf:

Is this something that really comes up? I am not picking on you - I am really curious. In my experience few people even remember the identities of the folks who facilitated their confinement after their conviction (mercifully, since I am a federal prosecutor and my mother has been a judge for about 18 years). I have had people yell and glare at me in court but frankly once they are confined I forget all about them. Have you ever had a confrontation with a person you helped convict?
 

TaylorD

Diamond Member
May 13, 2000
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Well, although I am all for the right to bear arms, I do appreciate the laws in New York and New Jersey that require you to have a reason to carry a concealed weapon (it is relatively easy to attain a permit which allows you to have one in your home, but more difficult to attain a permit to carry)

With such a populated area, I think its a pretty good idea that not everyone is packing. If you have a legitimate reason, you can legally carry a firearm... But not every guy on the street has a weapon.
 

BarbeQueGuy

Senior member
Jan 23, 2001
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How would crime change if weapons were carried bot not allowed to be concealed? Would there be more resepect because no one would be assumed to be an easy target?
 

Ulfwald

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
May 27, 2000
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I have yet to run into any one, plus, i have left that life a long time ago. I am now a network admin, and I do not pack that often any more.

The neighborhjood I live in is very nice, but it is surrounded by trailer parks, and many home s around me have been broken into. One reason that I have not is because i own 2 dogs, as well as an alarm system, but I am not taking any chances either. My wife can shoot, and so can I. I hope to never use my weapon again, but if the time does come, I will use it.