Mubarak to step down

[Lemon law]

To some extent, yesterday TareX was the pessimist and I was the optimist. And today TareX is the unrestrained giddy optimist.

And I am saying today, the Egyptian people need to still come together to secure what they won because the devil is always in the details.

In the case of the USA, the American Revolution began in 1776 and finally ended in 1781, when Lord CornWallis's army had supply line got cut. But it took many many more years to produce an American constitution.

Can the Egyptian people come together and their constitution ratified to the popular support of the entire nation? I remind this forum that many nations including Egypt have had constitutions, but all it takes is one dictator to decide the constitution is just a scrap of paper.

But still, I am still a optimist and bullish on the Egyptian people. All the assets are in place, a politically popular army to maintain order, better yet an army that seeming wants to stay secular, and a people that are almost 100% united in peaceful opposition. And with phase one under their belt already accomplished, namely getting rid of Mubarak, the phase 2 of holding national elections ASAP is the next phase that can have many a slip between cup and lip. But in some transition period, the question of the army and maybe Sulieman deciding who among protesters are "leaders of the protesters" and should be consulted, and who should not be listened to is just the beginning problem in phase2.

But as soon as economic and political reforms in Egypt start to pay dividends for the entire nation of Egypt, it will be irreversible. But it will take some time for the dividends to be realized.

 

[Lemon law]

Accidental double post.

 

[Gamingphreek]

anyone that tries to frame this as political spin for Bush or Obama are insulting the Egyptian people and the people that died to serve as catalysts for the Egyptian protests

Well said!

Whatever influence Bush and Obama had (both positive and negative) shouldn't even be mentioned next to the outstanding resolve of the Egyptian people!

 

[chucky2]

What long term view is that? A lot of us who opposed the Iraq War were saying that if the Iraqis wanted freedom and democracy then would need to revolt and fight for it themselves. Similar to what Egyptians just did.

Yes, they want it so bad but no one has the guts to go up against these brutal regimes - and I don't blame them, unlike the torture the US does, these regime's really are brutal.

You beat down and brainwash a populace long enough, revolt isn't something they're thinking about. Iraq broke through that for the region, exactly as Bush said it would.

And now you're seeing the breakthrough, first in Iraq, now in Egypt, next in?...

 

[CitizenKain]

It also shows that Bush was right to say that if we get democracy in Iraq it will spread. And now you're seeing just how right Bush was.

Nope, since it happened under an Obama presidency, then its all because of Obama. Since people like you claimed that things that happen in previous presidencies don't count, this doesn't.

 

[chucky2]

anyone that tries to frame this as political spin for Bush or Obama are insulting the Egyptian people and the people that died to serve as catalysts for the Egyptian protests

I don't take a thing away from those in Egypt who are making this happen. They've got balls bigger than most of us will ever have. I'm truly and completely happy for them! :thumbsup:

I just really hope they structure their country in such a way that allows it to go forward, rather than backwards...

Chuck

 

[her209]

Yes, they want it so bad but no one has the guts to go up against these brutal regimes - and I don't blame them, unlike the torture the US does, these regime's really are brutal.

You beat down and brainwash a populace long enough, revolt isn't something they're thinking about. Iraq broke through that for the region, exactly as Bush said it would.

And now you're seeing the breakthrough, first in Iraq, now in Egypt, next in?...

What?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_uprisings_in_Iraq

 

[chucky2]

What?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_uprisings_in_Iraq

What? indeed, from your own link:

"Saddam managed to suppress the rebellions with massive and indiscriminate force and maintained power. They were ruthlessly crushed by the loyalist forces spearheaded by the Iraqi Republican Guard and the population was successfully terrorized. During the few weeks of unrest tens of thousands of people were killed. Many more died during the following months, while nearly two million Iraqis fled for their lives. In the aftermath, the government intensified the forced relocating of Marsh Arabs and the draining of the Iraqi marshlands, while the Allies established the Iraqi no-fly zones."

So, that was in 1991. Now, who was in charge and in total power from then (and of course before that) until we invaded? Saddam.

Why did they revolt?

Because The Eb1l W3st came and challenged their brutal dictator.

Stop hating Bush because he's Bush...what he said - and did - was right...I know it's hard since The Left went batsh1t crazy demonizing him, and now you've been proved wrong and will deflect deflect deflect...but we can see the results.

I wonder who will be next? Iran perhaps, I doubt their young folks enjoy living the way they do....

Chuck

 

[TechBoyJK]

What long term view is that? A lot of us who opposed the Iraq War were saying that if the Iraqis wanted freedom and democracy then would need to revolt and fight for it themselves. Similar to what Egyptians just did.

I really don't think Mubarak and Saddam where in the same league when it comes to Dictators. Saddam terrified his people to a degree that what just happened in Egypt would have never, ever happened in Iraq. That's why we went in.

 

[her209]

What? indeed, from your own link:

"Saddam managed to suppress the rebellions with massive and indiscriminate force and maintained power. They were ruthlessly crushed by the loyalist forces spearheaded by the Iraqi Republican Guard and the population was successfully terrorized. During the few weeks of unrest tens of thousands of people were killed. Many more died during the following months, while nearly two million Iraqis fled for their lives. In the aftermath, the government intensified the forced relocating of Marsh Arabs and the draining of the Iraqi marshlands, while the Allies established the Iraqi no-fly zones."

So, that was in 1991. Now, who was in charge and in total power from then (and of course before that) until we invaded? Saddam.

Why did they revolt?

Because The Eb1l W3st came and challenged their brutal dictator.

Stop hating Bush because he's Bush...what he said - and did - was right...I know it's hard since The Left went batsh1t crazy demonizing him, and now you've been proved wrong and will deflect deflect deflect...but we can see the results.

I wonder who will be next? Iran perhaps, I doubt their young folks enjoy living the way they do....

Chuck

I see you're deflecting from your statement that they have no guts.

 

[her209]

I really don't think Mubarak and Saddam where in the same league when it comes to Dictators. Saddam terrified his people to a degree that what just happened in Egypt would have never, ever happened in Iraq. That's why we went in.

You sure it wasn't because we didn't want the smoking gun to come in the form of a mushroom cloud?

 

[chucky2]

Oh, you didn't get that did you? Sorry, let me clarify it so you get the point:

Has the guts to go up against the brutal regime <clarification> and see that through to the regime's end, and not stop because they're getting slaughtered by the brutal regime</clarification>.

I thought that was a given, as why one would go up against a brutal regime just to be brutalized and not actually accomplish getting rid of the regime strikes me as....pointless? Somehow you went there though, not sure why...

 

[nobodyknows]

It also shows that Bush was right to say that if we get democracy in Iraq it will spread. And now you're seeing just how right Bush was.

Oh please, Reagan obviously should get credit for this.

 

[TechBoyJK]

I see you're deflecting from your statement that they have no guts.

There's a difference between having no guts, and not being stupid.

If I know that going out and starting a revolt against a brutal dictator WILL NEVER SUCCEED, and I will only get myself and other people hurt and killed, to no end, then not doing it isn't being a coward, it's being self preserving.

The egyptian people are not cowardly at all. They saw a window and took it.

The iraqi people were not cowardly, they were terrorized and suppressed far beyond and reasonable ability to over throw their government.

 

[CitizenKain]

How do we not know this is because a butterfly flapped its wings differently? It makes just as much sense and thinking this is in anyway responsible to Bush.

 

[nobodyknows]

Stop hating Bush because he's Bush...what he said - and did - was right...I know it's hard since The Left went batsh1t crazy demonizing him, and now you've been proved wrong and will deflect deflect deflect...but we can see the results.

Bush has been proven right? When did they find the WMD's? Can you link me up to that article please?

 

[TechBoyJK]

Bush has been proven right? When did they find the WMD's? Can you link me up to that article please?

ANybody that truly believes the real reason was WMD's is a fool.

The point was to take Saddam out. Period. Our leaders justified it by saying there were WMD's. It was the only way. It's like a parent lying about how good cough syrup tastes to get you to take it.

For internal policy, I want the truth, but when our military is waging war against an enemy, I EXPECT them to lie about what is going on so that their strategies are not compromised.

 

[nobodyknows]

ANybody that truly believes the real reason was WMD's is a fool.

The point was to take Saddam out. Period. Our leaders justified it by saying there were WMD's. It was the only way. It's like a parent lying about how good cough syrup tastes to get you to take it.

For internal policy, I want the truth, but when our military is waging war against an enemy, I EXPECT them to lie about what is going on so that their strategies are not compromised.

LOL, It may be OK to indicate we're going to attack at point A and then attack at point B, but to lie as to the very reason we are going to war is another story.

http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/11/12/arabs_leaders_and_arab_street

In his new book, George W. Bush writes that he was under pressure not just from hawks in the United States to invade Iraq, but from Arab statesmen as well.

In a revealing passage, Bush writes that President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt "told Tommy Franks that Iraq had biological weapons and was certain to use them on [American] troops," a VOA article highlights. Bush goes on to say that Mubarak "refused to make the allegation in public for fear of inciting the Arab street."

 

[JSt0rm]

If bush was in power in sure he would of invaded Sudan because of this.

 

[chucky2]

I'm embarrassed about my past behavior, but i have nothing to say.

Fixed that for you.

 

[Narmer]

its sick to see theses animals taking over that country. it reminds me of the iraqs when saddam was overthown, they partied like wild animals in the streets but within a year they were doing terrorism and blaming the us for everything because the idiots who overthrew saddam had no idea how to run a country. trust me, a year from now there will be a taliban like government in that country which will be extremely anti western and which will be a breeding ground and haven for islamic terrorists

Wow, in the 4.5 years I've been here, you're the first person I've reported. Congratulations.

 

[bruceb]

Latest news say Mubarick has stepped down from power, posted around 12Noon NY time

 

[chucky2]

[/b]

LOL, It may be OK to indicate we're going to attack at point A and then attack at point B, but to lie as to the very reason we are going to war is another story.

http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/11/12/arabs_leaders_and_arab_street

How did you expect Bush to sell to people who's priority is watching American Idol, on top of the WMD concerns, the longer term goal of removing a brutal and unpredictable dictator from a region where we get a significant amount of oil from, so as to stabilize the region and not have to worry about him or his sons any longer? On top of the even longer term goal, which he could never say on TV for fear of enraging the ME fundi's/people, of starting to push them forward socially a few hundred years?

In the 9/11 timeframe, Iraq looks to be pursuing WMD (which long term we know was still true), was sufficient. And more importantly, simple.

Chuck

 

[Dominato3r]

So who will help guide them into a healthy democracy?

The US?

 

[CitizenKain]

ANybody that truly believes the real reason was WMD's is a fool.

The point was to take Saddam out. Period. Our leaders justified it by saying there were WMD's. It was the only way. It's like a parent lying about how good cough syrup tastes to get you to take it.

For internal policy, I want the truth, but when our military is waging war against an enemy, I EXPECT them to lie about what is going on so that their strategies are not compromised.

You really believe that? You believe we had some altruistic goal of improving life for the common man and woman in Iraq?