MSI K8N Neo4 nForce4 Ultra Socket 939

[kenton]

Oh, you should figure out the maximum memory speed your modules can handle, if you want the best overclock possible.

1. Maximum HTT speed
2. Maximum CPU speed
3. Maximum memory speed

Once you know all three you can mix and match to find the best combo of performance. Since I knew I wasn't going to take my memory modules beyond 200MHz I planned my overclock around that.

We know these boards can hit 300HTT with ease, I'm shown proof of that running two power supplies, two different sets of DDR400 memory and two different processors.

We know these processors can hit at a minimum 2600MHz with the maximums being at or close to 3GHz (HQ aftermarket cooling required in these cases, something like TT BigTyphoon or Tunic Tower, or WATER!)

I just did the math and with the 166MHz divider you should be able to hit 2600MHz with your memory at 236MHz/DDR472, that would PROBABLY only be possible with 2.8v to the memory (Sadly, this may be too low), but if I were you I'd be hoping for at least 2700+, because unless you have some KILLER Samsung TCCD memory you're going to be using the 133MHz divider which only hits DDR400 with 2800MHz. If your CCBBE is better than mine (which I hope it is, I really *expected* 2800MHz) then you may be stuck at a memclock of 200MHz or maybe a little beyond which will again, require some great cooling.

You ever think about rigging an 80-92mm fan on your Freezer 64 Pro? Something with similar/equal CFM should be a nice match and drop load temps a degree or two.

 

[GeezerMan]

OK, I'm perplexed. I tried my Corsair XMS ram, 2 x 1GB sticks, at 278 HT X 3, ram at 133, relaxed timings to 3 3 3 8, that's suggested in the Corsair forum,as well for overclocking, voltage at 2.75. No post. Tried both sticks by themselves at 133, same deal, no post. Tried voltage at 2.65, nothing. Lower ram to 100, it posts.

I have spare ram, so I got a stick of PQI Turbo ram here. Nothing special, fairly cheap stuff. Guess what? Posts at 278 HT X 3 , ram at 133, even with auto timings selected. voltages at 2.65. I'm sitting here typing this at 2506.3 MHz, ram at 179.1 MHz

Wassup with this? Maybe Corsair ram does not like this board? Runs just fine at stock CPU settings.

 

[Zap]

I have the same Corsair RAM as you. It will not run at spec. I've already RMA'd once because one stick was completely DOA, didn't feel like paying shipping again. Tested them at complete stock speeds, one stick does CAS 2.5 and the second CAS 3. Anything better results in errors.

Google search pulls up records of me posting, but the posts themselves are MIA and the search here doesn't pull them up. WTF? Do old posts go to /dev/null?

EDIT: Okay, guess the advanced search is broken (temporarily or for good nobody knows) based on a thread in Forum Issues. Apparently there is a "trick" to use with Google Search. I was on the right track but was missing one tiny bit. First, when searching with Google add:

site:forums.anandtech.com

to the end of the search string. That will only return messages from here < I already did that above. The second thing is that if the message has been archived then the Google link will go to a "cannot be found" page. Copy the link text under the result in the Google search and add:

&arctab=y

to the end of it, and voila...

Am I the only one having bad luck with Corsair XMS RAM?

Anyways, my experience with Corsair XMS has been pretty terrible. Strangely I have a pair of Corsair ValueRAM 2x1GB in my wife's machine which are running better (lower timings, at CAS 2.5) than the much more expensive XMS. I've also had single modules of Ultra 1GB PC3200 and PQI Turbo 1GB PC3200, both of which are rated for CAS 3 but which run at CAS 2.5. Oh yeah, I also have a G.Skill 2x1GB kit and a Patriot 2x1GB kit, both rated for CAS 2 and both running at CAS 2.

 

[GeezerMan]

Right, my PQI Turbo is running at 2.5. Well damn. Can I say damn? I really wanna say something else.

And what does overclocking mean in this case? Say you have a Opteron 165 that overclocks to 2600 compared to a FX-60 that runs stock at 2600, HT speed is stock at 2000, memory runs at 400 stock. But the Opty 165 runs at lets say 800 HT, memory at 350. It's not the same.
Got to be in the math.

Thanks

 

[kenton]

Zap, you say you have Ultra DDR400 that runs at CAS2.5? Do you know which chips are on the sticks, I know it's "Liberty" something, but I'm just curious. I may have to try 2.5-3-3-8 1T as my hopeful goal!

Geezer, two identical clocked processors, FX-60 @ 2.6GHz and Opteron 165 at 2.6GHz. The FX-60 will be running at HTT200, the Opteron 165 will be running at HTT 270-something. Opteron will have the slower memory clock but has the faster HTT/FSB clock. When it comes to CPU performance (especially in your Sandra and Everest benchies) the higher HTT processor will score higher. Right now, at 2.7GHz in Sandra I'm equal with the FX-62 (Socket AM2 w/ DDR2??) and I blow the FX-60 out of the water.

When it comes to the memory bandwith benchmark I'm kinda sick to my stomache but just remember, when it comes to A64 higher MHz is better than higher memory clock. Not to say that 166MHz memory clock and 2800MHz will be faster than 2700MHz/192MHz memory clock, but a good balance will need to be found.

Best of luck with your RAM issues!

 

[GeezerMan]

I still have it at 2500MHz, running one prime95, probably about average 60% CPU usage. I'll see what that does first. Temps on speedfan are 45C, room at 72F
HSF is the 4 pipe AMD, one small drop of Arctic Silver paste. So far, so good.
The MSI utility, PC alert says the CPU temp is lower by 5 to 7 degress. Interesting.

 

[Zap]

I don't know what's on the Ultra... sorry but don't feel like digging it out right now. I bought it from Tiger Direct.

GeezerMan, if you want to try, try running HT multiplier at 4x once you are satisfied your max overclock is 2.5GHz-ish. That leads to a hypertransport speed of just over 1100MHz, which many boards can do. I don't think it would make much difference, but it's there if you want to try it.

Regarding memory clocks, the "easy" way to figure stuff out is that the 133MHz setting is 2/3 of HTT and the 166MHz setting is 5/6 of HTT, but I don't think that's exact. IIRC memory settings are a divider off the total clock speed. For instance with the Opty 165 the total speed is 1800MHz.

200MHz 1800/9 = 200MHz
166MHz 1800/11 = 164MHz
133MHz 1800/13 = 138MHz

So with an overclock of 2600MHz, 2600/13 = 200, or DDR400.

Or, I could be wrong.

Anyways, IMO for top performance go with top CPU MHz. Anything else is gravy.

 

[samduhman]

I've scanned the thread and didn't get a true feel of whether this is a good deal or not. Should I buy it and does this board come with the cables?

 

[GeezerMan]

Good deal on a quality bare bones board, you only get the board and the I/O panel. That's it. No cd.


I think I can go higher, looks like ram may be my limiter here. I had it briefly higher, but saw the HT at a hair over 1000MHZ. Now I know that's OK, So on I go......

 

[GeezerMan]

I forgot I got a stick of the Ultra 1GB right here. It has ULT31664 on it, the chips are aeneon aed93t500. Any good?

Well, I found an old review of some OCZ EL DDR PC-3200 Gold GX XTC memory that uses the same chips. Interesting. May be good stuff

Link

 

[seannj]

One question, is it normal that the North Bridge Fan always runs at 4300RPM? The NB temperature is only about 19 ~ 20 C. Now the NB fan is the most noisy thing in my computer. I think if I can trade 5 to 10 C NB temperature for low RPM of the NB fan.

Any suggestion?

Thanks,

Sean

 

[Zap]

Originally posted by: samduhman
I've scanned the thread and didn't get a true feel of whether this is a good deal or not. Should I buy it and does this board come with the cables?

For $41 plus shipping (occasional coupon code for $2-3 shipping) makes it a killer deal because it is a decent brand, has decent overclocking (once BIOS is flashed) and is the NF4 Ultra chipset, not the plain NF4 or the cheaper NF4-4X. The board also has Firewire and SPDIF out on the I/O ports.

The drawbacks are no driver CD (download 'em), no cables (can buy from Geeks for $2 each) and no warranty beyond the 90 day or whatever. The most difficult part to get, however, IS included - the I/O shield. I think it is a great deal.

Originally posted by: GeezerMan
I forgot I got a stick of the Ultra 1GB right here. It has ULT31664 on it, the chips are aeneon aed93t500. Any good?

Well, I found an old review of some OCZ EL DDR PC-3200 Gold GX XTC memory that uses the same chips. Interesting. May be good stuff

Lucky you. You piqued my interest and I dug out the stick. Mine is also the ULT31664 part number, but the chips on them are marked Elpida. Still, not complaining too much for a $50 stick of 1GB PC3200 that runs CAS 2.5 at default 2.6v.

Reading the article you linked, Aeneon is a spinoff of Infineon < known for quality stuff especially BITD with good low latency PC100/PC133 and the early days of DDR.

With your stick, try testing at what the OCZ is rated for, 2-3-3-8 DDR400 2.8v (not positive about voltage). Don't worry about not having heatspreaders.

Originally posted by: seannj
One question, is it normal that the North Bridge Fan always runs at 4300RPM?

Yes. Not much to be done about that unless... use it on a fan controller or get an aftermarket HSF.

 

[imported_maildude]

Originally posted by: seannj
One question, is it normal that the North Bridge Fan always runs at 4300RPM? The NB temperature is only about 19 ~ 20 C. Now the NB fan is the most noisy thing in my computer. I think if I can trade 5 to 10 C NB temperature for low RPM of the NB fan.

Any suggestion?

Thanks,

Sean

Just checked.....my North Bridge is currently at 3850 but it changes all the time. It is a little noisy.

 

[AMCRambler]

Ok I just cleared up a whole world of confusion in my brain. You guys have been talking about HTT clock multipliers and as I haven't built a pc since 2003, I was wicked confused. Wikipedia to the rescue

So since we're talking AMD boards here, what you guys actually mean is HT(Hyper Transport) not HTT(Hyper Threading Technology). But even after reading the whole wiki, I still don't know exactly what this HT crap does. Is it a separate bus for the pci-e connection? So that pci-e is not tied into the cpu clock multiplier? If so then overclocking this would increase performance on the video cards correct?

 

[kenton]

This board is a killer deal for $41. KILLER. Firewire, 4 PCI slots, 4 DIMM slots. EXCELLENT LAYOUT (ever seen a Biostar?!)


Now, for those confused about memory timings, REMEMBER THE BOARD WILL NOT AUTOOVERCLOCK YOUR RAM. Someone mentioned the memory divider for 133MHz is actually 138MHz (or CPU / 13), this is INCORRECT. The proper formula for 133MHz divider is (CPU / 14), or 128.5MHz. Using the 133MHz divider (on an Opteron 165, or any processor with a 9x multi) will result in DDR400 only being achieved at 2800MHz and beyond.

See my previous screen shots at 2500MHz and above for proof of that fact.

Chipset fan (remember, this is not a northbridge, northbridge implies you have a SOUTHBRIDGE, which we do not) runs slightly over 4000RPM, mine hovers between 4100 and 4200RPM with the occasional spike higher and lower.

Overclocking the Hypertransport bus results in no gains and only instability.


I'll help you guys out even further, here's a chart I once wrote to figure out the maximum clock for each multiplier with specific memory dividers. Remember, I'm showing you what it takes at each multiplier with a specific memory divider to hit DDR400 speeds.

11x (Opty 175) - 166MHz divider = 2800MHz; 133MHz divider = Impossible (too high clock speed)
10.5x - 166MHz divider = 2600MHz; 133MHz divider = Impossible (too high clock speed)
10x - 166MHz divider = 2400MHz; 133MHz divider = 3000MHz (possible?)
9.5x - 166MHz divider = 2400MHz; 133MHz divider = 3000MHz
9x - 166MHz divider = 2200MHz; 133MHz divider = 2800MHz <-- sweet spot for most opterons
8.5x - 166MHz dividr = 2200MHz; 133MHz divider = 2800MHz


The only two logical choices to hit a decent overclock are the Opteron 165 and 175 (of course you could use a 170 at 9x, but why?). Using these processors you can either hit 2600MHz (175 only) or 2800MHz (175, 170, 165)

Remember, the chart above ONLY goes to DDR400. I, personally, was not interested in overclocking my RAM because it's cheapo.

 

[kenton]

Oh, half multipliers (like 8.5x and 10.5x) use the memory formula for the next ROUND multiplier (like 9.0x or 11.0x).

In my chart I show both 2200MHz and 2800MHz for 9x and 8.5x as being the sweet spot to hit DDR400 speeds. While correct, it should be noted that the half multipliers will obviously require a higher HTT clock. For example 8.5x requires 258HTT to hit 2200MHz, while 9x only requires 244HTT.

Food for thought.

 

[GeezerMan]

Originally posted by: Zap
Lucky you. You piqued my interest and I dug out the stick. Mine is also the ULT31664 part number, but the chips on them are marked Elpida. Still, not complaining too much for a $50 stick of 1GB PC3200 that runs CAS 2.5 at default 2.6v.

Reading the article you linked, Aeneon is a spinoff of Infineon < known for quality stuff especially BITD with good low latency PC100/PC133 and the early days of DDR.

With your stick, try testing at what the OCZ is rated for, 2-3-3-8 DDR400 2.8v (not positive about voltage). Don't worry about not having heatspreaders.

Well gee whiz. The Ultra ram I have, I got it last week, may be better than the high dollar Corsair. I wonder if I order another stick if I just might get another one with the same chips.That would be great,,,

 

[SithSolo1]

Has anyone been able to run their ram higher than 233mhz? I know the HTT will get up there, I was even stable at 320HTT but I couldn't ever get my ram over 233mhz without it failing to post. I know the ram is good for 270mhz.

 

[imported_maildude]

Quick question......Is anyone using the core cell utility available for download at msi. If so do you like it? Thanks

 

[GeezerMan]

OK OK OK, I'm excited, Overclcoking is fun..so much so, I can't even spell overclocking.....I'll calm, down..

Here's what I have right now. HTT at 300 X 9 = CPU speed of 2700
Memory divider at 166, CPU-Z says the memory is at 245.9, so X 2 = 491 speed ?
I'm trying the Ultra ram, that has the aeneon aed93t500 chips. I set the voltage at 2.8, settings are at 3 3 3 8

This is good, right?

I'm still using the AMD heatpipe, idles at 33 C according to speedfan

I have to test it now with prime95...

 

[cardiac]

Originally posted by: maildude
Quick question......Is anyone using the core cell utility available for download at msi. If so do you like it? Thanks

Yep, I use it for the info. Works good....

Bob

PS: Geezerman, calm down before you have the big one

 

[GeezerMan]

I calmed down. I had to. I was running 2 of the Prime95 to test her. It failed on one core after a few minutes. OK, what's the normal cause? Should I just back it down to 2600?
I'm still at stock CPU voltages. From what I read, I should be able to stay with stock CPU volts, right?

EDIT: I see one dude says he set volts to 1.41, and was stable at 2700

Maybe I should back off the ram setting to 133 and try prime95 then

 

[imported_maildude]

Since I'm retiring the end of the month I decided to order another one of these boards and try my hand at overclocking. I just hope that GeezerMan survives his first attempt and can help guide me through mine. It has been fun already just following this thread.

 

[kenton]

Holy ****** you had that RAM clocked high, GeezerMan.

I'm serious though, don't overclock two components at one time and expect stability your first time.

For your first overclock, just to test stability I recommend:

HTT: 289
HTT Multi: 3x
Voltage: Stock
DRAM Speed: 133MHz

Your RAM will run at 185MHz or so, yes that's underclocking -- but that's good. Prime95 2600MHz for 12-24 hours, if it's stable, move on. Always set your memory speed last.

 

[kenton]

Actually, do HTT244 and put DRAM divider at 166MHz. This results in 2200MHz and DDR400 speeds. That will be perfect to test your CPU for the first time. If stable for 12 hours, move up.

Remember, I first Prime'd at 1800, then 2200, then 2500, then 2600, then 2700, then 2800 -- realized 2800 was too high for the amount of voltage I felt comfortable with and settled at 2700.

If I had some quality RAM, now is the time I'd be trying to get it's speed up.