Kadarin
Lifer
- Nov 23, 2001
- 44,296
- 16
- 81
Yeah, that one had me shaking my head as well. Think on it this way:
If you start by looking at current Western culture as it is now, and work your way back, OF COURSE it would be different had Christianity never existed. So it would, of course, NOT be Western Culture as we know it, but something else.
What jvarszegi is apparently too intellectually shallow to realize is that had Christianity never existed, culture may have had the chance to evolve into some new, unguessable direction. "Western culture is far superior to all others"? That's pure opinion, and a lot different than "Western culture is far superior to all possible others".
NL5
Diamond Member
- Apr 28, 2003
- 3,286
- 12
- 81
Wow! Are you really that...well, nevermind. Anyway, Geoarge Washington existed. Not only do we have his body, his house, his writings, but COUNTLESS references to him in independent works. Not so for Jesus. NOTHING was written about him at the time he was supposed to be alive - NOTHING (and this was during the Roman era - the Romans kept EXCELLENT records BTW). We have no body, no home, NOT ONE THING WRITTEN by him. NOTHING. The only eveidence is a book wriiten somewhere between fifty and a hundred years AFTYER his supposed death.
Actually, Jesus and certain other historical religious figures have had a much deeper felt impact than Edison has had. Technological impacts are hardly the only thing to look at when considering significance. Changes in ideology are absolutely huge also. Just taking Christianity as an example, we have clear links between the rise of Christianity and the downfall of the Roman empire, the links between forms of government in the Middle Ages (and beyond) directly tied to Christianity, the numerous wars which were fought using religion as some sort of justification, etc. This same pattern can be said of numerous other historical figures (many often religious) who are not immediately 'technological'.
Try Tacitus - "The Annals of Imperial Rome" under the section on the burning of Rome. He states (translated into English obviously) "But neither human resources, nor imperial munificence, nor appeasement of the gods, eliminated sinister suspicions that the fire had been instigated. To suppress this rumour, Nero fabricated scapegoats - and punished with every refinement the notoriously depraved Christians (as they were popularly called). Their originator, Christ, had been executed in Tiberius' reign by the governor of Judaea, Pontius Pilatus."
That was taken directly from p. 365 in the Penguin Classsics Michael Grant translation of Tacitus - The Annals of Imperial Rome.
Tacitus was born in AD 56/57 and died sometime after AD 117, so while not a contemporary of Christ, he was pretty damn close. Frankly, that is a direct reference to a specific time period and set of people he takes as historical realities, including Tiberius, Pilate, and Christ. That's is about as hard of evidence as you're going to get for the existence of a person in antiquity who was not a member of the aristocracy or directly political.
The birth of Jesus.
Why be so quick to dismiss any possibility of the existence of Jesus? From the onset, Herod's temple, the Sanhedrin, Caesar's decree of a census, bones of the chief priest Caiaphas and records of Pontius Pilate have already been found and verified by archaeologists as hard evidence of the background. If Jesus didn't exist, why didn't the Sanhedrin or Caiaphas or Herod or Pilate or anyone at the time simply say so? In fact, Josephus and Tacitus, Roman-appointed Jewish historians have said that Jesus did exist and that Jesus did die. Even if they didn't live early enough to see Jesus, they saw the results and their research based on the sudden explosion (<30 years) of Christianity. (Historians do not have to be at the event at the exact time in order to write about it; there's such a thing called research!) Besides, religious movements do not simply "pop" out of nowhere from mythical founders. The overwhelming pattern of history shows that religious movements have real, living founders. Take Mohammed (Muslim), Buddha (Buddhism), Abraham (Judaism), and whoever else claimed to be from God (Jesus claimed He WAS God). Even Islam recorded Jesus' existence. Simply dismissing all possibility of the existence of Jesus is to be simply closed-minded.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."
PSALMS XIV:I
Why be so quick to dismiss any possibility of the existence of Jesus? From the onset, Herod's temple, the Sanhedrin, Caesar's decree of a census, bones of the chief priest Caiaphas and records of Pontius Pilate have already been found and verified by archaeologists as hard evidence of the background. If Jesus didn't exist, why didn't the Sanhedrin or Caiaphas or Herod or Pilate or anyone at the time simply say so? In fact, Josephus and Tacitus, Roman-appointed Jewish historians have said that Jesus did exist and that Jesus did die. Even if they didn't live early enough to see Jesus, they saw the results and their research based on the sudden explosion (<30 years) of Christianity. (Historians do not have to be at the event at the exact time in order to write about it; there's such a thing called research!) Besides, religious movements do not simply "pop" out of nowhere from mythical founders. The overwhelming pattern of history shows that religious movements have real, living founders. Take Mohammed (Muslim), Buddha (Buddhism), Abraham (Judaism), and whoever else claimed to be from God (Jesus claimed He WAS God). Even Islam recorded Jesus' existence. Simply dismissing all possibility of the existence of Jesus is to be simply closed-minded.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."
PSALMS XIV:I
The whole Manhattan project is certainly up there.
For the first time, man could destroy itself.
For the first time, man could destroy itself.
In my opinion, the extinction of Neanderthals, this way the human became the solely "owners" of all things on earth (that's what we think). If you don't believe it, just think for one minute about two intelligents & different races evolving together, the all world could never be the same.
yhelothar
Lifer
- Dec 11, 2002
- 18,409
- 39
- 91
Historical religious figures has impacted the past, but not much in the future. It's something that lives on, and then slowly dies away. Right now, christianity is losing 5% a year, since I last checked the figures. Technological impacts last forever, which is why I feel it's far more significant.
Religion has been used to justify wars, but are clearly not the reason for the war. The reason is the most important factor, and religion is not the reason. The reason is clearly the power struggle that has been found in the nature of human beings. You will find most of these religious wars started by a religious leader, who is a theocrat, and is viewed as a God by their followers. These theocrats will often start these wars to get more support for their religion, with more support comes more power. You think he cares what other people believes in, or he just wants more power?
MustangSVT
Lifer
- Oct 7, 2000
- 11,554
- 12
- 81
Babbles
Diamond Member
- Jan 4, 2001
- 8,253
- 14
- 81
I just found this thread and I suppose it has been argued already, but - like it or not - I think the birth of Jesus Christ was probably the single most significant event in history. I hate the fact that I have to insert a disclaimer here but with how ATOT often is I must; no I am not a big time Christian. I am a scientists, I do those science things and I am probably more Buddhist than anything.
However, I think the reality is that the birth of Christ is the biggest event in human history. Heck we number our years based off of this. The clock on everybody's computer is counting up from Christ's birth. Kind of hard to escape the impact of the birth of Christ.
However, I think the reality is that the birth of Christ is the biggest event in human history. Heck we number our years based off of this. The clock on everybody's computer is counting up from Christ's birth. Kind of hard to escape the impact of the birth of Christ.
Actually, if I remember correctly, the Romans do have record of Jesus...If I can find the book, I'll quote it for ya...
EDIT: Sweet...I found the website, my copy of "Antiquities" is still in my locker...Josephus references Jesus in Antiquities 18:63-64 "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man IF IT BE LAWFUL TO CALL HIM A MAN, for he was a doer of wonders, A TEACHER OF SUCH MEN AS RECEIVE THE TRUTH WITH PLEASURE. He drew many after him BOTH OF THE JEWS AND THE GENTILES. HE WAS THE CHRIST. When Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, FOR HE APPEARED TO THEM ALIVE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY, AS THE DIVINE PROPHETS HAD FORETOLD THESE AND THEN THOUSAND OTHER WONDERFUL THINGS ABOUT HIM, and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day"
Tactius also mentions Jesus a lot in his writings...
I posted the Tacitus reference above. It's fairly solid evidence, given the nature of what constituted evidence at the time.
JulesMaximus
No Lifer
- Jul 3, 2003
- 74,554
- 947
- 126
Half Life 2 released.
Oh wait, you know that time when Jesus came out of a hole in the ground and saw his shadow and then declared that there would be 6 more weeks of winter...that was the most significant event of all history.
Oh wait, you know that time when Jesus came out of a hole in the ground and saw his shadow and then declared that there would be 6 more weeks of winter...that was the most significant event of all history.
Siddhartha
Lifer
- Oct 17, 1999
- 12,505
- 3
- 81
I saw a show on the Discovery Channel that some scientist think that some event that occurred 70,000 to 80,000 years ago wiped out all but 10,000 to 15,000 humans.
I understand your point, but I think you're missing mine. It doesn't matter if the followers of a particular ideology come and go. It's the thought process behind it that matters. Ideologies tend to build upon (and often counteract/negate) ideologies, in much the same way technologies build upon and supercede other technologies. Frankly, this building and evolving process renders the OPs question as impossible to answer. But, just for play, it is clearly easy to argue that Christ has ultimately had a much greater effect than Edison, just based upon sheer number (and this is thanks to the extra 1900 years that the notion of Christ had been around before Edison came into play). And there may be something to say for a change in mindset as being more 'significant' than a technological change, although I won't argue that point because it seems to me that ideology and technology can both build upon each other (a classic example being US/Russian relations and MAD following the creation of nuclear weapons).
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