News Mosque shooting in Christchurch, New Zealand - At least 49 dead

[UglyCasanova]

It is only one of many in a clear pattern of behavior, as I literally just said like three posts ago, or did you not read it?

A pattern of behavior stating he’s ok with the mass murder of 49 people like you’re accusing him of? Whether he agrees the guy was far right does not mean he’s ok with the murder of all those people. You keep repeating the same quote over and over saying defend this as if it backs up your claim, but it’s not being truthful because the two aren’t the same thing (and you know this). Don’t be dishonest

 

[Anarchist Mae]

A pattern of behavior stating he’s ok with the mass murder of 49 people like you’re accusing him of? Whether he agrees the guy was far right does not mean he’s ok with the murder of all those people. You keep repeating the same quote over and over saying defend this as if it backs up your claim, but it’s not being truthful because the two aren’t the same thing (and you know this). Don’t be dishonest

Do you really not understand what I'm getting at? He makes indefensible arguments over and over again in his attempt to absolve the right (and himself) from facing the fact that they are perfectly fine with the system that led to this point, because acknowledging that the ideology you believe needs a scapegoat is too painful.

Edit: I don't have time to sit around all day waiting on this, so I'm off to do something productive with my time, for a few hours at least.

 

[twjr]

Fuck me! This descended into a dick measuring contest pretty quickly. Leave your computer for a couple of hours and suddenly there are two pages of vitriol and personal attacks.

 

[UglyCasanova]

The system that led to this point doesn’t solely ride on the backs of the right even if this guy is an alt right lunatic. Our society is embroiled in a very hyperpartisan cold civil war and there is an enormous amount of anger and finger pointing going on and the whole thing is exacerbated by the internet as has become painfully evident with this evil pos. The left and right feed off of a hatred for each other, like it’s necessary to have someone to be against as a was to rationalize their own being. This results in immense hatred towards Muslims and Latinos and Whites as these monolithic groups to point blame at for whatever your woes may be. The nutcases like the NZ shooter or the Dallas shooter I mentioned earlier are triggered by this into performing these acts of violence. Society looks back and said how could this have happened, it’s their fault! like they usually do and the cycle continues.

 

[DrDoug]

For latecomers to the Republican party and the conservative cause, here's a bit of history for you. This has all transpired in my lifetime...

- Pre-1964 Civil Rights: Southern Democrats are conservative, same with the southern Republicans. Northern Democrats and Republicans are more liberal but there are some conservatives on both sides in the north.

- 1964 Civil Rights Act: Southern Democrats felt betrayed by northern Democrats who joined northern Republicans in passing the 1964 CRA. President Johnson, a southern Democrat, signing the bill was another betrayal for them.

- 1964-1968: Lee Atwater capitalized on the anger of conservative Democrats in the south and came up with his "Southern Strategy" to bring their votes to the Republican party, which Nixon used to help win the Presidency in 1968.

- 1976: Voters are sick of Republicans, Vietnam, Watergate and other scandals, southern Democrats came home for the last time to vote for a southern Democrat they thought was one of them and Jimmy Carter wins the presidency. Carter goes on to disappoint them by not being an asshole to black people like they wanted him to be. The pump is primed for southern Democrats to abandon the party again, all they need is someone horrible enough to run as a Republican.

- 1980: The really horrible person Ronald Reagan decides to run for the presidency and goes Full Metal Lee Atwater style with his campaign, specifically courting angry conservative southern Democrats. His launching the campaign in Mississippi and his using terms like "welfare queens", "driving Cadillacs", "young bucks" and "dining on t-bone steaks" was an air raid-level dog whistle to racists and they answered his call to help give him the win. The press even came up with a nice sounding name for the southern Democrats who voted for him: "Reagan Democrats". These new Republicans ushered in the "Reagan revolution" that turned the party into the mess that it is today.

The problem for the old school rank and file Republicans that went along with this is that they did not realize that they would eventually lose control of the party. They thought that they could keep it under control, promising to deliver what southern conservative voters wanted without ever doing so in any meaningful way. A lot of the shit the old school boys did to bring in the southern vote was largely an act that they preferred to not deliver on. They knew that it would kill them with the more moderate members of the party so it was better to use dog whistle racism as voter/fund raising bait. The problem with that plan was that they did not understand that it would eventually lead them to lose control of the party. They really thought they had it under control. Instead all they did was fill a huge pot of anger and bitter resentment, leaving it on the stove to simmer and turning up the heat when they needed it to boil. All it needed was someone to turn the heat up to 11, break the control, let it get to a roiling boil and then kick it over. Trump did just that and it allowed him to take over the show which he now runs because he delivers what the racists and the people with money want. No one in the party will stand up to him because they don't want to lose their cushy, powerful job.

Republicans may have led the North to victory in the Civil War but the South got its revenge by destroying the Republican party. The Party of Lincoln is dead and it isn't coming back. Racists control the party now and they will never have to change parties again because they own this one.

 

[twjr]

Nom nom nom nom. I fucking love the left consuming their own.

Delicious tears.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1106907445006401541

And yet Donald Trump Jr. has come out defending her. Rationalise that...

 

[Anarchist Mae]

The system that led to this point doesn’t solely ride on the backs of the right even if this guy is an alt right lunatic. Our society is embroiled in a very hyperpartisan cold civil war and there is an enormous amount of anger and finger pointing going on and the whole thing is exacerbated by the internet as has become painfully evident with this evil pos. The left and right feed off of a hatred for each other, like it’s necessary to have someone to be against as a was to rationalize their own being. This results in immense hatred towards Muslims and Latinos and Whites as these monolithic groups to point blame at for whatever your woes may be. The nutcases like the NZ shooter or the Dallas shooter I mentioned earlier are triggered by this into performing these acts of violence. Society looks back and said how could this have happened, it’s their fault! like they usually do and the cycle continues.

I pretty much agree with everything you say here, what I don't understand is how that excuses the right for what they have been doing. The Democratic party has its own faults, but that's not actually important to seeing the connection between the hate filled rhetoric spread by much of the right and mass shootings motivated by people who repeat that rhetoric.

All I want is for those spreading such rhetoric to stop.

 

[mikeymikec]

"We should all be condemning all forms of hate"... says Donald Trump Jr... I guess the Russians eventually got their logic bypass chips working?

 

[Anarchist Mae]

I pretty much agree with everything you say here, what I don't understand is how that excuses the right for what they have been doing. The Democratic party has its own faults, but that's not actually important to seeing the connection between the hate filled rhetoric spread by much of the right and mass shootings motivated by people who repeat that rhetoric.

All I want is for those spreading such rhetoric to stop.

I know that won't happen however, not without their less extreme base abandoning them, but I've given up hope for that ever happening because any time someone criticises the far right a bunch of so called moderates come out of the woodwork to defend them, often with cries for decorum and civility.

Like I said earlier, if not now, when? When have enough people died that the moderates of the right say "hey, maybe we shouldn't do this, maybe we should vote for the people not promoting hate?". Instead, year on year the candidates keep getting worse and the votes still keep coming in.

This is why I don't care about hurting your feelings if you're defending the right. I have to assume that you're a lost cause for the sake of my own mental health, because I cannot grasp how you can do it.

 

[cytg111]

When Trump made up a load of rubbish about 'crowds of Muslims' celebrating 911, what do you think he was stirring up? What kind of attitude was that encouraging?

left wing terrorists... obviously.

 

[whm1974]

I know that won't happen however, not without their less extreme base abandoning them, but I've given up hope for that ever happening because any time someone criticises the far right a bunch of so called moderates come out of the woodwork to defend them, often with cries for decorum and civility.

Like I said earlier, if not now, when? When have enough people died that the moderates of the right say "hey, maybe we shouldn't do this, maybe we should vote for the people not promoting hate?". Instead, year on year the candidates keep getting worse and the votes still keep coming in.

This is why I don't care about hurting your feelings if you're defending the right. I have to assume that you're a lost cause for the sake of my own mental health, because I cannot grasp how you can do it.

I can't see how moderate conservatives can defend the Alt-Right/Far-Right at all. I sure as Hell wouldn't do so back when I considered myself one of them.

 

[pmv]

I've literally met people on this forum with my wife, scum.

That's an unusual name. Are you a hard-core punk family?

"I'm Sid Snot - this is my wife, Scum. And these are my children, Putrid and Gob, and my dog, Puke. Pleased to meet you"

 

[pmv]

A pattern of behavior stating he’s ok with the mass murder of 49 people like you’re accusing him of? Whether he agrees the guy was far right does not mean he’s ok with the murder of all those people. You keep repeating the same quote over and over saying defend this as if it backs up your claim, but it’s not being truthful because the two aren’t the same thing (and you know this). Don’t be dishonest

The two are closely-related though. Meaning the absurdly contrived arguments he makes over such a topic are in poor taste - and suggestive of not taking the issue seriously. [Editted to improve embarrassingly mangled sentence structure]

One can make a distinction between different strands of 'the right'. I can accept that. There is a 'respectable right', and, indeed, it's very probably the case that many of the victims of this horror would themselves be considered 'conservative' in a great many ways. But his attempt to claim the killer wasn't 'right wing' in any sense and to claim he's of 'the left' is so absurd as to make me wonder what his thought-process is or where he's trying to go with this.

The bigger issue is that in recent times this racist and potentially-violent kind of right has increasingly infiltrated and merged with the normal, respectible right. I would say that was mostly in the US, but also here, we get Boris Johnson and his dog-whistling to bigots. I _know_ there are decent conservatives out there, but they seem to be taking a back seat these days.

 

[VRAMdemon]

OK, I read the manifesto. For the most part. Educational in the sense that it gives a look into the mind of these type of people, who they hate (the liberals) and why..

The public party line about immigrants bringing "rampant" crime and drugs is basically a lie. And they know it is a lie, it’s just a lie they have to spout in order to justify their racist public rhetoric and policies.

The Hispanic immigrants migrating to North America and the Islamic immigrants migrating to Europe have several commonalities aside from skin color. They tend to be very religious. They are very family oriented. They tend to have large families and women are likely to stay home and be wives and mothers.

This presents a couple of problems for the alt-righters.

1. These groups currently are having way more kids than people of European descent. This is changing the demographic balance.
2. These groups are embodying values that they feel that people of European descent have lost. They blame this on Western liberalism and the emphasis of individual happiness over societal good.

They fear that the combination of these factors is going to make the immigrant culture the dominant social force if it isn’t stopped with drastic measures.

This is why the liberals are the enemy. This is why they “hate America”. Because they constantly push for policies that benefit individuals and place personal happiness and fulfillment above societal convention.

Plus, the liberal globalists are letting in all these immigrants because Americans/Europeans are too lazy to do hard work and don’t have enough babies because of all that access to birth control. The biggest enemy is those uppity liberal women who work, go to school and turn them down for dates - ( this is the nexus with the incel movement).

This is why they feel that immigrants are invaders looking to co-opt the culture of this country. Not because they think they are bad people, it because they know they aren’t.

All that was laid out in the manifesto.

And whenever you someone refer to an “invasion” (including our President) of immigrants, they are pandering to the nationalists.

Also..it looks like Milo is banned from Australia after spewing about "extremist Leftism and barbaric, alien religious cultures". History has demonstrated time and again that if you let people manipulate other people for hatred and violence, then violence will happen.

 

[whm1974]

OK, I read the manifesto. For the most part. Educational in the sense that it gives a look into the mind of these type of people, who they hate (the liberals) and why..

The public party line about immigrants bringing "rampant" crime and drugs is basically a lie. And they know it is a lie, it’s just a lie they have to spout the lie in order to justify their racist public rhetoric and policies.

The Hispanic immigrants migrating to North America and the Islamic immigrants migrating to Europe have several commonalities aside from skin color. They tend to be very religious. They are very family oriented. They tend to have large families and women are likely to stay home and be wives and mothers.

This presents a couple of problems for the alt-righters.

1. These groups currently are having way more kids than people of European descent. This is changing the demographic balance.
2. These groups are embodying values that they feel that people of European descent have lost. They blame this on Western liberalism and the emphasis of individual happiness over societal good.

They fear that the combination of these factors is going to make the immigrant culture the dominant social force if it isn’t stopped with drastic measures.

This is why the liberals are the enemy. This is why they “hate America”. Because they constantly push for policies that benefit individuals and place personal happiness and fulfillment above societal convention.

Plus, the liberal globalists are letting in all these immigrants because Americans/Europeans are too lazy to do hard work and don’t have enough babies because of all that access to birth control. The biggest enemy is those uppity liberal women who work, go to school and turn them down for dates - ( this is the nexus with the incel movement).

This is why they feel that immigrants are invaders looking to co-opt the culture of this country. Not because they think they are bad people, it because they know they aren’t.

All that was laid out in the manifesto.

And whenever you someone refer to an “invasion” (including our President) of immigrants, they are pandering to the nationalists.

Also..it looks like Milo is banned from Australia after spewing about "extremist Leftism and barbaric, alien religious cultures". History has demonstrated time and again that if you let people manipulate other people for hatred and violence, then violence will happen.

I've read part of the Manifesto as well and you gave a better take on this then I was going to do.

 

[VRAMdemon]

The system that led to this point doesn’t solely ride on the backs of the right even if this guy is an alt right lunatic. Our society is embroiled in a very hyperpartisan cold civil war and there is an enormous amount of anger and finger pointing going on and the whole thing is exacerbated by the internet as has become painfully evident with this evil pos. The left and right feed off of a hatred for each other, like it’s necessary to have someone to be against as a was to rationalize their own being. This results in immense hatred towards Muslims and Latinos and Whites as these monolithic groups to point blame at for whatever your woes may be. The nutcases like the NZ shooter or the Dallas shooter I mentioned earlier are triggered by this into performing these acts of violence. Society looks back and said how could this have happened, it’s their fault! like they usually do and the cycle continues.

The system that led us to this "point"?. Do You mean the system that led to this type of act of terrorism?..There is only one "system" or a more accurate description "ideology" that bears responsibility and it's the one you and other here seem to want to deflect away from.

This is not a blanket accusation at the right as a whole. Only a small, but growing segment of the right. I have friends and family that lean right and some that are full blown fundamentalist conservatives that I love very much. They have nothing in common with these alt right lunatic's, nor do they share this immense hatred toward immigrants or liberals.

I don't think you or anyone posting in this thread "supports" what this guy did. But it seems there's a lot of "hand waving and deflecting" of who and where this type of mass murderer gets his inspiration and motivations.

 

[pmv]

OK, I read the manifesto. For the most part. Educational in the sense that it gives a look into the mind of these type of people, who they hate (the liberals) and why..

The public party line about immigrants bringing "rampant" crime and drugs is basically a lie. And they know it is a lie, it’s just a lie they have to spout the lie in order to justify their racist public rhetoric and policies.

The Hispanic immigrants migrating to North America and the Islamic immigrants migrating to Europe have several commonalities aside from skin color. They tend to be very religious. They are very family oriented. They tend to have large families and women are likely to stay home and be wives and mothers.

This presents a couple of problems for the alt-righters.

1. These groups currently are having way more kids than people of European descent. This is changing the demographic balance.
2. These groups are embodying values that they feel that people of European descent have lost. They blame this on Western liberalism and the emphasis of individual happiness over societal good.

They fear that the combination of these factors is going to make the immigrant culture the dominant social force if it isn’t stopped with drastic measures.

This is why the liberals are the enemy. This is why they “hate America”. Because they constantly push for policies that benefit individuals and place personal happiness and fulfillment above societal convention.

Plus, the liberal globalists are letting in all these immigrants because Americans/Europeans are too lazy to do hard work and don’t have enough babies because of all that access to birth control. The biggest enemy is those uppity liberal women who work, go to school and turn them down for dates - ( this is the nexus with the incel movement).

This is why they feel that immigrants are invaders looking to co-opt the culture of this country. Not because they think they are bad people, it because they know they aren’t.

All that was laid out in the manifesto.

And whenever you someone refer to an “invasion” (including our President) of immigrants, they are pandering to the nationalists.

Also..it looks like Milo is banned from Australia after spewing about "extremist Leftism and barbaric, alien religious cultures". History has demonstrated time and again that if you let people manipulate other people for hatred and violence, then violence will happen.

Glad I didn't bother to read it! I could have predicted exactly what it said. These guys are rarely original thinkers (at least the Unabomber had a slightly different agenda!).

I think you slightly neglect the differences among migrant groups, both beween Hispanics in the US and Muslims in Europe (seems to me that the latter tend to be a bit more socially-conservative) and between different groups within each category (Somalians are different from Bangladeshis, say, the former is, after all, a seriously broken country).

The thing about birth rates is that it's somewhat true. The religious have slightly more children than non-believers, but the big difference is between 'moderates' and hard-core hard-liners. And that applies across almost all religions (look at the rate of growth of ultra-orthodox in Israel or Amish in the US). What's the answer supposed to be, though? 'Genocide', or at best 'build a fortress and try and hide in it and defend it with extreme violence, only to realise you are now locked inside a fortress with a bunch of crazy armed incels?' That's not just profoundly immoral but also unworkable.

And even though I'm an atheist, if the long-term future of humanity is religious, for simple Darwinian reasons, I say, so be it. Ultimately, in sort-of grand cosmic sense, why should I care? If it turns out that is required for people to continue to reproduce, then OK, that's just how it is.

But the sane option is surely to hope that religiosity wears off, that the children of the hard-core religious will always ultimately tend to defect and be seduced by the secular?

 

[HomerJS]

Hey, do you have that link to the person you claimed started birtherism?

Here is the thread...
https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...ism-it-was-jerome-corsi.2562087/post-39756865

 

[HomerJS]

Not every white person is a white supremacist. It has become culturally acceptable to demonize people based on skin color, you can’t twist it to say oh we just meant white supremacists. It has become culturally acceptable

They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.

Find one person who has said most white immigrants are rapists and murders. Yet you put up some bullshit strawman all white people are white supremacists which NOBODY has claimed.

 

[Anarchist Mae]

Glad I didn't bother to read it! I could have predicted exactly what it said. These guys are rarely original thinkers (at least the Unabomber had a slightly different agenda!).

I think you slightly neglect the differences among migrant groups, both beween Hispanics in the US and Muslims in Europe (seems to me that the latter tend to be a bit more socially-conservative) and between different groups within each category (Somalians are different from Bangladeshis, say, the former is, after all, a seriously broken country).

The thing about birth rates is that it's somewhat true. The religious have slightly more children than non-believers, but the big difference is between 'moderates' and hard-core hard-liners. And that applies across almost all religions (look at the rate of growth of ultra-orthodox in Israel or Amish in the US). What's the answer supposed to be, though? 'Genocide', or at best 'build a fortress and try and hide in it and defend it with extreme violence, only to realise you are now locked inside a fortress with a bunch of crazy armed incels?' That's not just profoundly immoral but also unworkable.

And even though I'm an atheist, if the long-term future of humanity is religious, for simple Darwinian reasons, I say, so be it. Ultimately, in sort-of grand cosmic sense, why should I care? If it turns out that is required for people to continue to reproduce, then OK, that's just how it is.

But the sane option is surely to hope that religiosity wears off, that the children of the hard-core religious will always ultimately tend to defect and be seduced by the secular?

I came into the internet age an angry atheist, and I'll leave it not really giving a shit if other people believe or not. The last decade has really driven home that we have bigger problems to solve, even if some of them are at the hands of Christian extremists.

I was thinking of starting a thread to share all off the alt-right nonsense I come across, would that be welcome here?

To be clear, I am unsure because of the following rule:

2. 2/6/16 -- Use of images: The written word is paramount in P&N. Images may be used in a post ONLY to supplement a written argument, but may not be your sole contribution to any one post, and must be used sparingly, in any case. Repetitive overuse of images by any one poster will also not be allowed.

In addition, since the written word is paramount, posts in P&N require personal commentary, not just links or just images or just anything.

 

[HomerJS]

Do you think that the Left does not also fan flames of fear?

Name one thing where the left propagandizes fear over something blatently not true such as fearing the brown menace.

 

[realibrad]

Here is the thread...
https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...ism-it-was-jerome-corsi.2562087/post-39756865

You must have read something else, because your link in that thread did not say it was that guy. The article is from 2019. In the interview he is asked about conspiracy theories he has believed in. Birtherism is brought up and he says to read his book from 2011. Birtherism started well before 2011.

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/09/birther-movement-founder-trump-clinton-228304

"Later, in the spring 2008, as Clinton’s chances of winning the Democratic primary grew thin, some of her hardcore supporters circulated rumors that Obama may not be a U.S. citizen, picking up on some of Martin’s innuendo and extending it further."

It's was going on well before his book.

 

[realibrad]

Name one thing where the left propagandizes fear over something blatently not true such as fearing the brown menace.

Well, I just answered that in my post to you.

"Later, in the spring 2008, as Clinton’s chances of winning the Democratic primary grew thin, some of her hardcore supporters circulated rumors that Obama may not be a U.S. citizen, picking up on some of Martin’s innuendo and extending it further."

 

[pmv]

Well, I just answered that in my post to you.

"Later, in the spring 2008, as Clinton’s chances of winning the Democratic primary grew thin, some of her hardcore supporters circulated rumors that Obama may not be a U.S. citizen, picking up on some of Martin’s innuendo and extending it further."

Er... are you claiming hardcore Clinton supporters are 'the left'?

 

[realibrad]

Er... are you claiming hardcore Clinton supporters are 'the left'?

Yes. Are you under the impression that Clinton supporters are not? Hillary Clinton?