News Mosque shooting in Christchurch, New Zealand - At least 49 dead

[s0me0nesmind1]

That sounds much closer to reality.

Yeah, but why use facts when you can use your feelings instead?

20% of all women on college campuses are raped. FACT!

20% of all white people are racist white supremacists. FACT!

 

[Perknose]

Ohhhhhhhhhhh man! You pwned me!

Where in my post did I indicate if it was a state or local law?

Where you said, "Also, remind me: Which state had stop and frisk?"

New York STATE did NOT have stop and frisk, just like Schenectady doesn't have the Statue of Liberty.

If you can't even express yourself properly in a simple English sentence, get the hell out of my country!

 

[Perknose]

If we're just focusing on white nationalism - because "violent" could mean anything including just being a criminal - then survey data suggests it's a little over 5.6%, according to this study.

https://www.vox.com/2018/8/10/17670992/study-white-americans-alt-right-racism-white-nationalists

Though the method may if anything underestimate the total since those surveyed were asked questions to determine if they had all three of these beliefs: 1) a strong sense of white identity, 2) a belief in the importance of white solidarity, and 3) a sense of white victimization. And if they only had 2 of the 3, they didn't count as white nationalists.

I think there's a latent, "tribal-based" bigotry towards and fear of "others" that goes far beyond this primitive 5.6%.

Racism and Xenophobia, to my mind, are like a virus that lies latent within a disturbingly large percentage of our populace. What we see now, with the rise of violent attacks, is that virus being activated by Trump and Fox News.

That 5.6% gains the "courage" to act only within a petri dish of complicit racism that exists within the larger populace.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Where you said, "Also, remind me: Which state had stop and frisk?"

New York STATE did NOT have stop and frisk, just like Schenectady doesn't have the Statue of Liberty.

If you can't even express yourself properly in a simple English sentence, get the hell out of my country!

You're just reaching so far as if you have some sort of big gotcha - but it's really just getting more pathetic.

Let me spell this out for you:

• The topic of discussion was states. Not cities. Not counties. Not districts. Not metro areas. Not parish's. Not boroughs. States.
• New York City had stop and frisk
• New York City is contained within the state of New York
• Thus, New York had stop and frisk
• I never stated which jurisdiction the law itself applied to. The topic of discussion was which states had more white supremacist actions.

I never stated which jurisdictions the law fell under, nor did I indicate such. If it makes you feel better and all warm and fuzzy like you pwned me, I guess go for it though?

 

[woolfe9998]

I think there's a latent, "tribal-based" bigotry towards and fear of "others" that goes far beyond this primitive 5.6%.

Racism and Xenophobia, to my mind, are like a virus that lies latent within a disturbingly large percentage of our populace. What we see now, with the rise of violent attacks, is that virus being activated by Trump and Fox News.

That 5.6% gains the "courage" to act only within a petri dish of complicit racism that exists within the larger populace.

The survey is measuring "white nationalism," not racism per se, which is a broader thing. So yes, I agree. I would also point out that 5.6% is 11 million people. That's a lot of neo-fascists for one democracy to have among its populace. I recall survey data from the 90's which put the number at closer to 2-3%. It's disturbing.

 

[Perknose]

• New York City had stop and frisk
• New York City is contained within the state of New York
• Thus, New York had stop and frisk

I find your theory of the transitive properties of laws fascinating. Please subscribe me to your blog.

If it makes you feel better and all warm and fuzzy like you pwned me, I guess go for it though?

Dude, you owned yourself.

 

[HurleyBird]

So much for the notion that Trump is just riding a wave and has nothing to do with it. If hate crimes went up by that much in counties where he made speeches, it's tough to argue otherwise. It's nigh impossible to have correlation that extreme and with that much geographic specificity without causation.

Like with any such claim, you should look into it before drawing conclusions. There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.

Unfortunately, the referenced paper does not appear in Google, and clicking the "our research" hyperlink in the article leads to a page stating that they will present the paper at some polisci conference next month.

But it's possible to at least vet the claim a bit. The article states that they used the ADL's extremist heatmap data to create their statistical analysis.

You can find that here:

https://www.adl.org/education-and-resources/resource-knowledge-base/adl-heat-map

And you only need to interact with it for a little bit to see that there is the potential for serious problems, and it's probably not good data to test their hypothesis in the first place. It doesn't track hate crimes, for example, despite all the mention of hate crimes in their op-ed. Only the top three categories would appear to potentially fall under that label. Of which there were 69, and then one should also subtract the 16 attributed to Islamic or left wing ideology. And not all of those remaining even sound like hate crimes. For example:

"Paul Ridgeway, an associate of white supremacist prison gangs, was fatally shot after firing on a Contra Costa Sheriff's deputy who was attempting to arrest him for outstanding warrants."

But even being overly generous and saying that there are 50 or so significant events that may be valid to test against the effect of Trump rallies, that's a very low sample size and I doubt you'd be able to say anything with confidence from that.

But I'm guessing that they used more data than that. There were 3,787 total incidents in 2017 (the latest available) EDIT: (Actually I had 2017 and 2018 selected). But when you just do a cursory scroll the events, you can see that a really sizeable portion are fairly benign.

For example:

"Patriot Front, an alt right group, posted flyers and stickers that read: "Keep America American," "Not stolen conquered," "Money does not rule you," and "Not here not ever."

and

"Identity Evropa, an alt right group, distributed flyers that read: "Protect your heritage." They also posted stickers featuring their group logo."

In fact, stickers put up by these two groups look like they account for about a third and at least a quarter of the reported incidents. So, in the event you have some of their members showing up at Trump rallies and putting up those stickers, that alone could theoretically explain the results of the study. But in that case you can hardly say that Trump's rallies are driving hate crimes (ignoring for the moment that these aren't actually hate crimes) in those communities, since it would actually be the confounding variable of people following him around and putting up those sticks.

It's possible that the researchers used a methodology that accounted for some of these potential issues, and maybe we can read more about that next month, but... I'm not hopeful. Almost certainly looks like a nothing burger.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

I find your theory of the transitive properties of laws fascinating. Please subscribe me to your blog.

Dude, you owned yourself.

Sure bro. Sure. /pats Perknose on the head.

So, if the police kill 50 black people in NYC - then by your definition 0 black people were killed in New York.

 

[JSt0rm]

It's nowhere near 20%. That is crazy to think that 20% of white people are violent and or white nationalist. You are saying that 1 in 5 people are that way.

20% alt right. Not 20% murders.

 

[realibrad]

20% alt right. Not 20% murders.

Did you miss that vox link? Much closer to 5-6%

 

[realibrad]

The survey is measuring "white nationalism," not racism per se, which is a broader thing. So yes, I agree. I would also point out that 5.6% is 11 million people. That's a lot of neo-fascists for one democracy to have among its populace. I recall survey data from the 90's which put the number at closer to 2-3%. It's disturbing.

That is a rapid growth that should worry any reasonable person. Sadly, it's not relevant to many here. 20% is there emotional stance.

 

[Vic]

The level of brain dead stupidity in this thread... God damn it's a sad world we live in.

Have you made sure not to reproduce?

Also, remind me: Which state had stop and frisk?

Ah, is your micropenis bothering you again?

 

[DrDoug]

One of the old car forums I like to read has a sad example of how little some Americans care about what happened in New Zealand. The forum owner runs the forum as a place for those who share a common hobby and he deletes posts from anyone who gets political. Over the years I have seen many posts go political and every single time it's some guy suffering a bout of Conservative Tourettes, blurting out something political because whatever, only to be deleted and the member banned if they keep it up. So far so good, right?

Not after this shooting. More than a few Kiwis are members of this forum and one of them made a thread about the shooting, offering their condolences to fellow Kiwis. Most of the responses are from fellow Kiwis and U.K. members going back and forth discussing the incident. The first two responses from Americans are sparse but OK with the third comment bringing up that the "blame game" is already going on here in the US, blaming "everyone except the shooter". After a 'tots & pears' comment from another American, one Brit mentions that this won't stop until the obsession with guns ends and that there will be another shooting because of that obsession. In a second post he mentions that wherever guns are, lots of people die and where they are restricted, people don't die so much. I'm guessing that some of the American members decided to go after this Brit via PM with him posting in the thread thanking them for the many messages "all seemingly from pro gun lobby and gun owners".

It's sad to see those Kiwis and Brits have to face the reality that the people they shared a common interest and hobby with are real pieces of shit. I'm sad not only for that but because it reflects on what a piece of shit country we have become. The only good I can see is that most of these assholes are old fucks with one foot in the grave, reliving their childhood through their cars until that other foot slips.

 

[woolfe9998]

That is a rapid growth that should worry any reasonable person. Sadly, it's not relevant to many here. 20% is there emotional stance.

To be fair, he said "white nationalist and/or violent." Not really sure what he meant by "violent" as that can mean a lot of things. But he didn't seem to only be referring to white nationalists.

Also, it's important to understand that not all racists are white nationalists, meaning in the context of this survey, that not all racists will necessarily agree with all three positions presented.

 

[pmv]

One of the old car forums I like to read has a sad example of how little some Americans care about what happened in New Zealand. The forum owner runs the forum as a place for those who share a common hobby and he deletes posts from anyone who gets political. Over the years I have seen many posts go political and every single time it's some guy suffering a bout of Conservative Tourettes, blurting out something political because whatever, only to be deleted and the member banned if they keep it up. So far so good, right?

Not after this shooting. More than a few Kiwis are members of this forum and one of them made a thread about the shooting, offering their condolences to fellow Kiwis. Most of the responses are from fellow Kiwis and U.K. members going back and forth discussing the incident. The first two responses from Americans are sparse but OK with the third comment bringing up that the "blame game" is already going on here in the US, blaming "everyone except the shooter". After a 'tots & pears' comment from another American, one Brit mentions that this won't stop until the obsession with guns ends and that there will be another shooting because of that obsession. In a second post he mentions that wherever guns are, lots of people die and where they are restricted, people don't die so much. I'm guessing that some of the American members decided to go after this Brit via PM with him posting in the thread thanking them for the many messages "all seemingly from pro gun lobby and gun owners".

It's sad to see those Kiwis and Brits have to face the reality that the people they shared a common interest and hobby with are real pieces of shit. I'm sad not only for that but because it reflects on what a piece of shit country we have become. The only good I can see is that most of these assholes are old fucks with one foot in the grave, reliving their childhood through their cars until that other foot slips.

A shame but not really surprising.

One thing that does strike me, judging from forums like this at least, is how conservatives here and over there take diametrically-opposed views on weapons in general. i.e. here it's people on the right who are constantly demanding a crack-down on knives, and demanding the police stop-and-search without any concern for namby-pamby liberal nonsense like civil liberties, and that anyone caught with a weapon should go to jail for 20 years. While over there anti-knife campaigns seem to be painted as the logical next step of wicked "socialist" gun-control.

 

[DrDoug]

A shame but not really surprising.

One thing that does strike me, judging from forums like this at least, is how conservatives here and over there take diametrically-opposed views on weapons in general. i.e. here it's people on the right who are constantly demanding a crack-down on knives, and demanding the police stop-and-search without any concern for namby-pamby liberal nonsense like civil liberties, and that anyone caught with a weapon should go to jail for 20 years. While over there anti-knife campaigns seem to be painted as the logical next step of wicked "socialist" gun-control.

Actually, over here the right used knives in a lame argument that if you take the guns away then people will just stab each other. My response to that is "I've never seen a semi-auto knife that can kill large numbers of people at a distance."

 

[pmv]

Mind you, I have encountered one overexcitable cyclist who argued 'we should be allowed guns to even the playing field, so we can shoot motorists'. On the basis that the drivers already have a weapon and amour. I guess if cyclists were allowed to use some sort of LAW (as opposed to using the law) it might make drivers better behaved. Not entirely sure it would be worth the social costs, though (just a hunch that it might not go well). Maybe if cyclists all carried nitro-glycerine so were known to explode violently on the slightest contact, motorists would miraculously become better at seeing them and not driving into them?

Actually, over here the right used knives in a lame argument that if you take the guns away then people will just stab each other. My response to that is "I've never seen a semi-auto knife that can kill large numbers of people at a distance."

There clearly is an upsurge in knife crime here. But it's all relative. The death-rate is still a fraction of that due to guns in places where those same people would have them.

Personally I find the rediscovery by street criminals of 'vitriol throwing' (which I mostly only knew of from Sherlock Holmes stories) to be more disturbing. Some of those cases have been quite horrific.

 

[realibrad]

To be fair, he said "white nationalist and/or violent." Not really sure what he meant by "violent" as that can mean a lot of things. But he didn't seem to only be referring to white nationalists.

Also, it's important to understand that not all racists are white nationalists, meaning in the context of this survey, that not all racists will necessarily agree with all three positions presented.

Actually, he said and. I'm the one that split it at and or. The and or should be bigger vs his narrower group.

 

[DrDoug]

Mind you, I have encountered one overexcitable cyclist who argued 'we should be allowed guns to even the playing field, so we can shoot motorists'. On the basis that the drivers already have a weapon and amour. I guess if cyclists were allowed to use some sort of LAW (as opposed to using the law) it might make drivers better behaved. Not entirely sure it would be worth the social costs, though (just a hunch that it might not go well). Maybe if cyclists all carried nitro-glycerine so were known to explode violently on the slightest contact, motorists would miraculously become better at seeing them and not driving into them?



There clearly is an upsurge in knife crime here. But it's all relative. The death-rate is still a fraction of that due to guns in places where those same people would have them.

Personally I find the rediscovery by street criminals of 'vitriol throwing' (which I mostly only knew of from Sherlock Holmes stories) to be more disturbing. Some of those cases have been quite horrific.

Bicyclists have their own issues...lol! As a motorcyclist I've been told to carry few old spark plugs for the asshole that decides to ride my ass. Discreetly drop one so it bounces along on the ground so they run over it and watch them back off trying to figure what just fell off from under their car. If that don't work toss one over your shoulder and take a window out.

I just lose them real fast, that works for me.

If I interpret your vitriol correctly, you are talking about sulfuric acid? Nasty shit. An attack with that would be horrendous. I used to manage the plating tanks at an electroplater and I had a close call with a 55 gallon drum of that shit. It destroyed my coat sleeve but I was able to rip the coat off before it burned through to my skin. My safety gear saved the rest of me. It's a very powerful oxidizer, that coat melted down in no time.

Chem is one of my the things in my past, and I'm glad it's in the past!

 

[kage69]

I had no idea about Erdogan losing his shit over the shootings, didn't see it covered over here at all.

He brought up Galipolli, ok

"The Turkish leader caused a firestorm by suggesting that anyone visiting Turkey while espousing anti-Muslim sentiments would be sent home “in coffins,” just as their forebears were during the failed Gallipoli campaign by Allied powers, including New Zealand and Australia, during World War I."

It seems New Zealand has not only a good PM, but a skilled deputy leader/foreign minister in Winston Peters. Guess it's already over?

 

[shortylickens]

BUMP


The councillors of Auckland have been threatened:

'Appalled': Auckland Council calls in police over death threats

Facebook comment threatens lives of Auckland councillors.

www.nzherald.co.nz

Also in the news:
The shooter changed his plea to guilty back in March, however, New Zealand was on top of Coronavirus back then so the victims families were not able to attend the trial. The judge decided he won't sentence the killer until everyone can be together in court, and of course no one knows when that could happen.

 

[twjr]

BUMP


The councillors of Auckland have been threatened:

'Appalled': Auckland Council calls in police over death threats

Facebook comment threatens lives of Auckland councillors.

www.nzherald.co.nz

Also in the news:
The shooter changed his plea to guilty back in March, however, New Zealand was on top of Coronavirus back then so the victims families were not able to attend the trial. The judge decided he won't sentence the killer until everyone can be together in court, and of course no one knows when that could happen.

It was really quite surprising when the shooter plead guilty. He clearly stated in his manifesto that he wanted a platform at trial to spread his views and bog down the judicial system. I wonder what changed his mind.

The sentencing hearing has been laid down for 24 August 2020. The judge presiding over the case had to make a trade off between giving victims enough time to be able to be present at the hearing and swift enough to give them closure. Given the guilty plea came on the same day as NZ started their lockdown it was hard to know if victims would even be able to be present at sentencing to give their victim statements in person. As it happens NZ got on top of coronavirus so those victims who are still in NZ will be able to be present in person. Unfortunately because NZ has a pretty hard international border at the moment those victims that are overseas are unlikely to be able to enter NZ so arrangements had to be made to allow them to give their statements via video.

The shooter also sacked his defence counsel recently and will be representing himself at the sentencing so that should be interesting.

Edit: It will also be an interesting test of the NZ sentencing regime. Unlike the US, NZ doesn't have consecutive sentences. While life sentences do mean life in NZ, until now, all life sentences have also been given non-parole periods. There is provision for a whole-of-life sentence in the Crimes Act and it's hard to see how this act couldn't attract such a sentence.

 

[twjr]

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/chri...urch-mosque-gunman-jailed-until-his-last-gasp

The killer was sentenced today for life without parole. It's the first time that sentence has been handed down in New Zealand, though it was hard to see how any other sentence would be acceptable given the crime.