More voodoo economic craziness

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charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
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Originally posted by: flavio
Originally posted by: Dari


Bush's tax cut was geared towards those that pay the most taxes. lower their burden, and they're most likely to recycle it back into the economy. makes sense to me.
So the wealthy who don't need the money are more likely to spend it then the poor/middle class who are forced to put purchases they need/want on hold because they can't afford them.

Seems likely to me that the rich might just add their tax cut to their savings and the poor are much more likely to spend it right away on the things they've been putting off.
Yes it is geared towards those that pay taxes. If you pay taxes you get a tax break, The more taxes you pay, the bigger break you can get. Some 4 million more familes will have their tax liabilities removed.
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,389
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You said that France's and Germany's tax cuts are aimed at the middle class. I'd like you to prove that statement. Show me exactly what the tax cuts are in those two countries. Where did you get that information?
Yes, I would like to see that too.....
 

LeadMagnet

Platinum Member
Mar 26, 2003
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If your body doesn?t work, get jobs using your mind.
If your mind doesn?t work, using your body.
If you?re under 18 no problem, your job is to learn.
If you don?t fit into any of these categories then I have a problem with you if want welfare, universal healthcare, and every other privilege for the downtrodden.
 

Brie

Member
May 27, 2003
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Originally posted by: sMiLeYz
Since when do the right refer to France and Germany, except when it suits their political agendas? ;)

Anyway, their tax cuts aim for the middle class while our tax cut is aimed at the wealthy and to bankrupt social security.
bankrupt social security...yes it is a lofty goal! Lets cut the rest of the budget by about 50% also.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
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I'd move to angola where there are zero taxes or even russia with a top marginal rate of only 13% if you dislike taxes so much. Me never bothered me to pay to live in a secure country with law and order and education for those who want it. Well it does bother me Micheal Dell can borrow tax payers money at the discount rate from commercial banks then only pays 15% on what ever profit he makes. While I have to borrow at the market rate from a regional bank and pay 50% in income.
 

Brie

Member
May 27, 2003
137
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Originally posted by: Zebo
I'd move to angola where there are zero taxes or even russia with a top marginal rate of only 13% if you dislike taxes so much. Me never bothered me to pay to live in a secure country with law and order and education for those who want it. Well it does bother me Micheal Dell can borrow tax payers money at the discount rate from commercial banks then only pays 15% on what ever profit he makes. While I have to borrow at the market rate from a regional bank and pay 50% in income.

Im sure that if America only provided security and free education our top marginal rate would be 13% also thats why we are complaining. Michael Dell cant borrow from commerical banks but Dell inc can borrow. Also considering the fact that Dell is a rock solid company, i would offer them lower rates also. There are efforts to eliminate cap gains taxes and other rich people taxes but high finance is only for the rich :/ and us poor people dont have to worry about that.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
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How does Norway do it? Top corporate tax is 28% and top income tax is 28%. Much much lower than ours in both catagories and everything is free. Education, work re-training, welfare, medical care etc etc they have it all and a Balanced Budget amendement.

Now I know my cousin, in Sweden, a jouneyman brick layer, makes about 3x more than a American in the same field. His wifes never worked, he has a three story home, for what is basically semi-skilled idiot labor. Ya he sure is taxed to death, like 50% plus VAT of 15%, but he still lives better than any briklayer over here I'm sure.
 

drewshin

Golden Member
Dec 14, 1999
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i know, japan has had one of the lowest if not the lowest tax burdens for the last 10 years or so, and look where it's gotten them.

lowering taxes is good if enough people use the money saved and spend it, but if people are saving the money (i.e. savings, retirement accounts) then it's pretty much useless.
 

Brie

Member
May 27, 2003
137
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Originally posted by: drewshin
i know, japan has had one of the lowest if not the lowest tax burdens for the last 10 years or so, and look where it's gotten them.

lowering taxes is good if enough people use the money saved and spend it, but if people are saving the money (i.e. savings, retirement accounts) then it's pretty much useless.
I agree with you on Japan, but I believe that consumerism in the US will prevent any kind of mass saving frenzy like in Japan.

 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
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Originally posted by: drewshin
i know, japan has had one of the lowest if not the lowest tax burdens for the last 10 years or so, and look where it's gotten them.

lowering taxes is good if enough people use the money saved and spend it, but if people are saving the money (i.e. savings, retirement accounts) then it's pretty much useless.
You forget, one mans savings account is another mans investment capital.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
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Originally posted by: Zebo
How does Norway do it? Top corporate tax is 28% and top income tax is 28%. Much much lower than ours in both catagories and everything is free. Education, work re-training, welfare, medical care etc etc they have it all and a Balanced Budget amendement.

Now I know my cousin, in Sweden, a jouneyman brick layer, makes about 3x more than a American in the same field. His wifes never worked, he has a three story home, for what is basically semi-skilled idiot labor. Ya he sure is taxed to death, like 50% plus VAT of 15%, but he still lives better than any briklayer over here I'm sure.
Norway is a large oil exporting nation. That is where their wealth largely comes from. It's not something magical they are doing with their taxes or budget.


Norway looking beyond the oil boom
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
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You call 13% of GDP "largely"...Mexicos is higher as it's still a rat hole.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
BTW- Mexico hardy has any taxation either... I see a trend. Shitholes have no taxes and countries everyone want to live have outragous taxation. Coinsidence?
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Zebo
BTW- Mexico hardy has any taxation either... I see a trend. Shitholes have no taxes and countries everyone want to live have outragous taxation. Coinsidence?
Mexico has more corruption problem than taxation problems.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
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Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Zebo
BTW- Mexico hardy has any taxation either... I see a trend. Shitholes have no taxes and countries everyone want to live have outragous taxation. Coinsidence?
Mexico has more corruption problem than taxation problems.

So building, by collective, which costs money, by taxation, a lawful, massive infratructure, educated, and "fair" (still to be determined) has nothing to do with these first worlders success? The horse came first right? Well, I'm not a poor little dirt farmer like 90% of americans were in the 19th century and as they still are in Mexico. Athough with subsidies I hear you don't even need to grow a crop over hear anymore to make a living farming. But I digress.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
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Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Zebo
BTW- Mexico hardy has any taxation either... I see a trend. Shitholes have no taxes and countries everyone want to live have outragous taxation. Coinsidence?
Mexico has more corruption problem than taxation problems.

So building, by collective, which costs money, by taxation, a lawful, massive infratructure, educated, and "fair" (still to be determined) has nothing to do with these first worlders success? The horse came first right? Well, I'm not a poor little dirt farmer like 90% of americans were in the 19th century and as they still are in Mexico. Athough with subsidies I hear you don't even need to grow a crop over hear anymore to make a living farming. But I digress.
WHen Mexico has a reformed goverment, it will flourish. As long as you have to bribe officials to get anything done, it is going no where.
 
Dec 27, 2001
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Originally posted by: shinerburke
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Most people aren't making 200,000 or more to have to pay that much. If you bring an average Joe off the street with a household income of 60k, 2 kids... There is a good chance that he will be paying the same amount of taxes as the person in France is without the added perks. Now imagine Joe, paying $500 a month for health insurance of his family. That's 6k or 10% right there. The best way to compare the tax systems plus perks would be to take the median salary of both countries and run them through the tax systems and see who comes up with the most disposable income.
Based purely on income taxes the average tax burden in France is 36%, Germany 47%. The U.S. is 20% which includes social security and medicare.

Add in the local, social, health, etc... taxes in Germany and France and their number will increase quite a bit.

If you include local and state taxes, including sales tax, into the U.S. number is rises to 29.8%.
Okay, here's the problem. Factor in the cost of heathcare for the US numbers.

It costs $614 for health insurance for a family of 3. If that family is pulling in 40k a year they're devoting 18% or so to insurance. Add that to the 20% taxes we pay and we're pulling even.

The problem isn't privatized health care, it's out of control privatized health care. There's no way it should cost that much to insure three people. For people in a much higher bracket that $614 becomes 10% and then 5% then .01%. And if the family isn't eating it, the employers are and that translates to fewer and smaller raises.

We have a better system, but something is wrong with it.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
How do you fight corruption...And more importantly how do you pay for it?

What is a reform government? sounds like socialist to me.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Zebo
How do you fight corruption...And more importantly how do you pay for it?

What is a reform government? sounds like socialist to me.
There is not an easy answer to this. Fixing a broken goverment is not socialism.

 

shiner

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
17,116
1
0
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: shinerburke
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Most people aren't making 200,000 or more to have to pay that much. If you bring an average Joe off the street with a household income of 60k, 2 kids... There is a good chance that he will be paying the same amount of taxes as the person in France is without the added perks. Now imagine Joe, paying $500 a month for health insurance of his family. That's 6k or 10% right there. The best way to compare the tax systems plus perks would be to take the median salary of both countries and run them through the tax systems and see who comes up with the most disposable income.
Based purely on income taxes the average tax burden in France is 36%, Germany 47%. The U.S. is 20% which includes social security and medicare.

Add in the local, social, health, etc... taxes in Germany and France and their number will increase quite a bit.

If you include local and state taxes, including sales tax, into the U.S. number is rises to 29.8%.
Okay, here's the problem. Factor in the cost of heathcare for the US numbers.

It costs $614 for health insurance for a family of 3. If that family is pulling in 40k a year they're devoting 18% or so to insurance. Add that to the 20% taxes we pay and we're pulling even.

The problem isn't privatized health care, it's out of control privatized health care. There's no way it should cost that much to insure three people. For people in a much higher bracket that $614 becomes 10% and then 5% then .01%. And if the family isn't eating it, the employers are and that translates to fewer and smaller raises.

We have a better system, but something is wrong with it.
Some of that depends on your insurance provided by your employer. My medical, dental, and eye care insurance cost me $20 per month. That's it. Several of the people I work with are married and have families and the most anyone pays for their insurance is $107 per month and that guy has a wife and 4 children. Funny this should come up...we were just talking about it at work today. By the way..we also get pretty good raises....in fact I got a 13% one at the first of June...on top of the nearly 30% raise I got when I became a manager.

I do agree with you, the medical insurance system is broken for the most part. It's criminal what some people are charged for insurance and then the company doesn't want to pay their claims or forces them to get generic medicines instead of what the doctor ordered. It's basically a health care system run by accountants and that is just wrong. That being said....it would be much worse if the government were running it. Think about it, do you REALLY want the people that run the U.S. Postal Service to be in charge of your health?

I don't know what the answer to this problem is, but something does need to be done.

 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
I'll make it easy. The elceted goverment taxes the hell out of all thier million/billionaires. Pays police, internal affiars with strict honor codes a good wage. IE you can support a family alone, have a house and retirement. You make schooling free so those who previously had no opportunity can at least get an education and maybe be enterprising in thier own right. Then murder will be cost more than $50 down there because of more to loose like here in some places (not Detroit). Build super highways, a traffic system, a merchant marine fleet. .... Boy I could go on but i'm sure you're opppossed to the 100 or so billionaires down ther being inconvienenaced so much, after all they earned it. It's thier IMF loans and gifting off the countries resourses and labor pool to do what they will with it.
 

shiner

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
17,116
1
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Originally posted by: Zebo
I'll make it easy. The elceted goverment taxes the hell out of all thier million/billionaires. Pays police, internal affiars with strict honor codes a good wage. IE you can support a family alone, have a house and retirement. You make schooling free so those who previously had no opportunity can at least get an education and maybe be enterprising in thier own right. Then murder will be cost more than $50 down there because of more to loose like here in some places (not Detroit). Build super highways, a traffic system, a merchant marine fleet. .... Boy I could go on but i'm sure you're opppossed to the 100 or so billionaires down ther being inconvienenaced so much, after all they earned it. It's thier IMF loans and gifting off the countries resourses and labor pool to do what they will with it.
Nice way to kill off a country by destroying the people who create jobs......otherwise your plan is brilliant!!
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
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Explain how they create a job? Next thing you're going to tell me Miceal Dell creates jobs right?
 

shiner

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
17,116
1
0
Originally posted by: Zebo
Explain how they create a job? Next thing you're going to tell me Miceal Dell creates jobs right?
I'm assuming you mean Michael Dell.

No, of course not. He just piles up his money and swims in it.

 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Zebo
I'll make it easy. The elceted goverment taxes the hell out of all thier million/billionaires. Pays police, internal affiars with strict honor codes a good wage. IE you can support a family alone, have a house and retirement. You make schooling free so those who previously had no opportunity can at least get an education and maybe be enterprising in thier own right. Then murder will be cost more than $50 down there because of more to loose like here in some places (not Detroit). Build super highways, a traffic system, a merchant marine fleet. .... Boy I could go on but i'm sure you're opppossed to the 100 or so billionaires down ther being inconvienenaced so much, after all they earned it. It's thier IMF loans and gifting off the countries resourses and labor pool to do what they will with it.
I am not against taxes that aid the general population. All the things you mentioned are good ideas and we may disagree on the best way to get there. But if a goverment is corrupt, it is going to take more than raising taxes to fix the problem. Adding more dollars to a corrupt goverment may not help as much as you would wish it too. Mexico is rich with natural resources and people that are willing to work hard, but something is missing that would make it a better place.

I am not sure what the solution is.
 

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