Im really hoping that it is this coffee that is not allowing me to percieve sarcasm correctly.....
Im really hoping that it is this coffee that is not allowing me to percieve sarcasm correctly.....
If you are a sheik in a Muslim fanatic sect you will teach your followers they will get virgins if they kill themselves blowing up people so to counteract that Sheik Zebo is trying to convince us it's our religious duty to blow them up first before they get us as holy war self defense. In short he's just another nut case with a terrorist killer mentality. The important thing is who can convince who to kill who first. It's all about being a coward and living in terror of the other, the terrible burden that the certain have to bear, killing the other to save the good guys. Theses are the wise among us who know who should die, the noble warriors of holy purpose that always send others to do the dying.
datalink7
Lifer
- Jan 23, 2001
- 16,765
- 6
- 81
Originally posted by: palehorse
nope. I genuinely don't care how you, or anyone else here, perceives my character or my service.
I'm a VERY happy and satisfied person who is leading what I feel is a fantastic life. I don't hate myself at all.
That shoe don't fit...
Exactly how I feel. I think Moonbeam must hate himself so much the developed this crazy theory that everyone must hate themselves. Or maybe not. I couldn't begin to fathom where he came up with it. His whole philosophy makes very little sense. I have always failed to see why people are impressed by what he says.
Ozoned
Diamond Member
- Mar 22, 2004
- 5,578
- 0
- 0
Originally posted by: datalink7
Exactly how I feel. I think Moonbeam must hate himself so much the developed this crazy theory that everyone must hate themselves. Or maybe not. I couldn't begin to fathom where he came up with it. His whole philosophy makes very little sense. I have always failed to see why people are impressed by what he says.
I believe palehorse explained it quite well a while back. CHEAP entertainment.
Originally posted by: datalink7
Originally posted by: palehorse
nope. I genuinely don't care how you, or anyone else here, perceives my character or my service.
I'm a VERY happy and satisfied person who is leading what I feel is a fantastic life. I don't hate myself at all.
That shoe don't fit...
Exactly how I feel. I think Moonbeam must hate himself so much the developed this crazy theory that everyone must hate themselves. Or maybe not. I couldn't begin to fathom where he came up with it. His whole philosophy makes very little sense. I have always failed to see why people are impressed by what he says.
You answered your own question. You fail to see.
But I mean that not in the way you, in your defensive self hate will naturally take it, as a personal attack. I simply state it as a fact. I am perfectly aware how you and palehorse see things, that you fancy you have no self hate. Do you really imagine the yesterday Moonbeam didn't think the same thing? Do you really imagine I don't know your normal psychic state? I know you better than you know yourselves. But, as I said to palehorse, I spoke a truth that if he were deeply honest he might see a need for. palehorse is no princess. He has no such need. palehorse is like a farmer who marches through his barn with all the chipper confidence of a man who knows nothing of the lion sleeping there.
It is the same story with all these folk killing themselves. They too once had perfect lives and would have laughed in my face, like you do, at the notion of self hate. And now they are dead, and they are dead because the knowledge to save them is refused. I have told you over and over you would rather die than know. And you blithly tell me otherwise. Hehe, you just have not a frigging clue. I say what I say because the knowledge I have is the only think that can make any real difference, the only way up and out. I say what is. What you do with it is way way beyond my control.
But let me ask you something, a question you can't answer. Why do all these wonderfully mentally happy people who have survived some catastrophe or other that killed almost everybody else, experience, not ecstatic joy at being alive but instead, survivor's guilt. Why can't they shake the horrible feeling that they were the ones who deserved to die. It wouldn't be because, outside their conscious awareness, but hidden, is the fact that they fucking hate themselves, now would it.
palehorse
Lifer
- Dec 21, 2005
- 11,521
- 0
- 76
I think your problem is that you try to paint everyone with the same brush -- that brush being your own -- a reflection of your personal inner demons. I'm the round peg that won't fit in your square hole my brother. I'm the happiest son-of-a-bitch I know!Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: datalink7
Originally posted by: palehorse
nope. I genuinely don't care how you, or anyone else here, perceives my character or my service.
I'm a VERY happy and satisfied person who is leading what I feel is a fantastic life. I don't hate myself at all.
That shoe don't fit...
Exactly how I feel. I think Moonbeam must hate himself so much the developed this crazy theory that everyone must hate themselves. Or maybe not. I couldn't begin to fathom where he came up with it. His whole philosophy makes very little sense. I have always failed to see why people are impressed by what he says.
You answered your own question. You fail to see.
But I mean that not in the way you, in your defensive self hate will naturally take it, as a personal attack. I simply state it as a fact. I am perfectly aware how you and palehorse see things, that you fancy you have no self hate. Do you really imagine the yesterday Moonbeam didn't think the same thing? Do you really imagine I don't know your normal psychic state? I know you better than you know yourselves. But, as I said to palehorse, I spoke a truth that if he were deeply honest he might see a need for. palehorse is no princess. He has no such need. palehorse is like a farmer who marches through his barn with all the chipper confidence of a man who knows nothing of the lion sleeping there.
It is the same story with all these folk killing themselves. They too once had perfect lives and would have laughed in my face, like you do, at the notion of self hate. And now they are dead, and they are dead because the knowledge to save them is refused. I have told you over and over you would rather die than know. And you blithly tell me otherwise. Hehe, you just have not a frigging clue. I say what I say because the knowledge I have is the only think that can make any real difference, the only way up and out. I say what is. What you do with it is way way beyond my control.
But let me ask you something, a question you can't answer. Why do all these wonderfully mentally happy people who have survived some catastrophe or other that killed almost everybody else, experience, not ecstatic joy at being alive but instead, survivor's guilt. Why can't they shake the horrible feeling that they were the ones who deserved to die. It wouldn't be because, outside their conscious awareness, but hidden, is the fact that they fucking hate themselves, now would it.
Under religion, my dog-tags read "BEGOODTOPEOPLE." I believe that as long as one tries to live up to that goal, with every decision they make, they too can be as happy as I am.
I also believe that your enlightenment and subsequent awareness of your own self-hate has become a self-fulfilling prophecy; and that you merely wish everyone around suffered from the same ailments as you...
ph: I think your problem is that you try to paint everyone with the same brush -- that brush being your own -- a reflection of your personal inner demons. I'm the round peg that won't fit in your square hole my brother. I'm the happiest son-of-a-bitch I know!
Under religion, my dog-tags read "BEGOODTOPEOPLE." I believe that as long as one tries to live up to that goal, with every decision they make, they too can be as happy as I am.
I also believe that your enlightenment and subsequent awareness of your own self-hate has become a self-fulfilling prophecy; and that you merely wish everyone around suffered from the same ailments as you...
===========
You do not know what you feel. I know it and you do not. I told you in case you arrived at a point of need. You don't have any need. My aim was to provide you with ammunition and understanding in case you hit a hard patch or were in a position to help others. You will be of little help because you have no understanding. You tell those who want to kill themselves how wonderful you feel. I'm sure they will be impressed. The world is in deep trouble because everybody is as blind as you. You feel like the worst person in the world. You do not know it, don't want to know it, and don't want to know you don't want to know. I wish you didn't because it is a total lie. There is nothing wrong with you at all and never has been, but you don't believe it at the level of feelings.
You have no answer to survivor's guilt other, I suspect, than some notion that some people are just weak. It's a pity your ignorance magnified by billions is killing the world, but there is no help for it. You don't know what you feel.
Under religion, my dog-tags read "BEGOODTOPEOPLE." I believe that as long as one tries to live up to that goal, with every decision they make, they too can be as happy as I am.
I also believe that your enlightenment and subsequent awareness of your own self-hate has become a self-fulfilling prophecy; and that you merely wish everyone around suffered from the same ailments as you...
===========
You do not know what you feel. I know it and you do not. I told you in case you arrived at a point of need. You don't have any need. My aim was to provide you with ammunition and understanding in case you hit a hard patch or were in a position to help others. You will be of little help because you have no understanding. You tell those who want to kill themselves how wonderful you feel. I'm sure they will be impressed. The world is in deep trouble because everybody is as blind as you. You feel like the worst person in the world. You do not know it, don't want to know it, and don't want to know you don't want to know. I wish you didn't because it is a total lie. There is nothing wrong with you at all and never has been, but you don't believe it at the level of feelings.
You have no answer to survivor's guilt other, I suspect, than some notion that some people are just weak. It's a pity your ignorance magnified by billions is killing the world, but there is no help for it. You don't know what you feel.
Brigandier
Diamond Member
- Feb 12, 2008
- 4,394
- 2
- 81
Either you're crazy or a shot for humanity to get over itself and move forward.
I lean towards crazy.
You have no choice but to think as you do. You don't know what you feel. But what we can see is that while you are facile and quick with your opinion about me, you offer nothing, in your ignorance, on any explanation for survivor's guilt. And you can't rub these two glaring contradictions together to create even a speck of self-reflection to indicate to yourself you're a fool.
Hehe
Since you have a positive self image and don't care what I think of you I should be able to tell you something of my own self confidence, right, without it causing any envy or competitiveness. Two perfect people should be able to have a meeting of minds, no? The reason I'm a trip and surprise you is because I can see in the dark, what is dark for you of course. I knew I had a killer line there, but it didn't come out of thin air or occur because of some comic gene I may possess. It got you because it came from 180 degrees from where you expected and it did so because I can see what is true.
I am going to take you on a journey into the dark, one in which you can't see your way, so you won't be able to validate or know for yourself that I am correct. I simply ask you as an intelligent and thinking person to consider what I say:
ph: My biggest problem upon returning home is the slow and annoying pace by which normal citizens go about their daily lives. Simple things, like waiting in line for an ignorant kid at McDonalds to fix a screwed up order, will piss me off; or, having to explain something to someone more than once because they're too slow to get it the first time. I might snap and yell at a few folks for being ignorant, but I usually just go outside to calm down instead.
M: Who is this person and where does he fit in with the happy person you are in your self representation? Where does that person go when you calm down? Why do people say I wasn't myself when of course they were somebody and who else can you be?
ph: Luckily, for me, this only lasts about a month each time I come home from downrange... after that, I'm perfectly normal and patient... that is, until I deploy again.
M: You see, there is this normal self and this other guy you don't seem to be as fond of. Who is HE and where did HE go? What does it mean to be angry and impatient. Isn't there a you who has those feelings?
Now, if somehow, somebody could get you in a therapy group and you could allow yourself to become that angry person and then really go with that anger, it would eventually become rage, and if you allowed enough of it to spill out it would disappear as you discovered that all that rage was there to protect you from being sad. And if you could go with that generalized and amorphous sadness it would become more and more concrete until you came upon real memory, some traumatic event you have forgotten and repressed and there you could begin to mourn for the real loss, to morn for yourself. And you would be blown away by this, trust me, I know. And if you grieve enough you will heal. You will no longer be sad and therefore no longer angry.
I tell you that the feelings you have about others are your own feelings. They have their own origins and roots. They belong to you and you own them. A thief fears that people will steal, a liar that people lie. We project onto the world what we are really like. My bet is your folks had no use for know it alls and they make that clear to you, if you know what I mean. Mine did.
You're a bright guy and know a great deal. It's not going to happen you grew up without somebody around you somewhere feeling intimidated and putting you down. Another thing. None of what I say will suddenly change you from the happy person you are into a mental case. You are already as crazy as you're going to get. I know writhing around on the floor reliving, maybe some beating, doesn't comport with military dignity, but it sure relieves stress. Just be sure to do it with support and wise help.
ph: "There's no doubt that re-integration is a son-of-a-bitch."
M: You can say that again.
datalink7
Lifer
- Jan 23, 2001
- 16,765
- 6
- 81
[/quote]
No, not necessarily. Why would you assume that?
You have become fixated on the idea that eveyone hates themselves. But the only evidence you ever have for this "theory" is "because I said so" and "because I know so." Well, I know you're wrong. And I am right because I say I am. So there. Same silly thing that you are doing. Except it isn't quite so silly, because I know how I personally feel, far better than you ever could through an internet forum. So you can't be right that "everyone" hates themselves because I don't. So it is at least everyone minus one.
No, not necessarily. Why would you assume that?
You have become fixated on the idea that eveyone hates themselves. But the only evidence you ever have for this "theory" is "because I said so" and "because I know so." Well, I know you're wrong. And I am right because I say I am. So there. Same silly thing that you are doing. Except it isn't quite so silly, because I know how I personally feel, far better than you ever could through an internet forum. So you can't be right that "everyone" hates themselves because I don't. So it is at least everyone minus one.[/quote]
No no, your job wasn't to ask me why I assumed that. I didn't assume it, remember? I know it. Your job was to provide an explanation that fits better, that has the more explicative power, that is more diagnostic. The whole world makes sense when you see that self hate is the driving force behind what people can't understand. It's like e+mc2. I didn't choose it to be that way. It ain't my fault. I can't help it if a simple fact explains the human condition. Not my fault you don't want to see. I knew that already.
Just my luck, why does this always happen to me, the fear of success, survivor's guilt, Stockholm syndrome, criminals that leave their wallets at crime scenes, it is everywhere you look if you have eyes to see. You can say anything you like, that you don't hate yourself, but I know better, because I have experiences you have not. Not my fault I know more than you and that you are far more naive. You say what you say but you have no idea. I do. I used to know what you do. Was I surprised. Anyway I know everything there is to know about this argument. I know it inside out. I have no need to convince you. You can't be. You do not know what you feel. You don't even know what that means. I do. I have been places you haven't. Call me arrogant or anything you like. It doesn't matter. Nothing can undo what I know because I know it, you see.
datalink7
Lifer
- Jan 23, 2001
- 16,765
- 6
- 81
Saying the same thing over and over again doesn't make it true. Everything you say is essentially "I'm right because I say I'm right." How profound :roll:
Yes, you have experiences that I don't have, but I have experiences you don't have. So the search for truth should be a sharing of those experiences. Not "I have the ultimate experience and I know everything." You've halted the intellectual, spiritual, and emotional process. You are a dead end.
"Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it." ~Andre Gide
Right, like the truth you gave me for survivor's guilt?
Next time you meet Andre Gilde you tell him for me that I don't believe those who seek truth or those that have found it. There are no truth seekers or finders. All you have ever know are people in denial. The truth you don't know is what you feel, that we don't remember who we really are.
You mistake that I say something over and over as if it will convince you eventually. I say it over and over because you can't be convinced by anything. The truth isn't something you know, talk about, or put into works. Truth is something you experience as a state of being. The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon. You want to argue about fingers. I want you to look.
datalink7
Lifer
- Jan 23, 2001
- 16,765
- 6
- 81
Argueing with you is like trying to argue with a book. Doesn't matter what anyone says, you just come back with the same thing over and over again. Problem is, your book doesn't even make any sense (and yes, I can guess your response to that :roll
. You are the one in denial. You've latched onto an insanity and it has so colored your world that you can't see anything. Your glasses aren't rose colored. They are black. Come back out of the rabbit hole and into the light (see I can talk in silly metaphors too).
Originally posted by: datalink7
Argueing with you is like trying to argue with a book. Doesn't matter what anyone says, you just come back with the same thing over and over again. Problem is, your book doesn't even make any sense (and yes, I can guess your response to that :roll
You are the one in denial. You've latched onto an insanity and it has so colored your world that you can't see anything. Your glasses aren't rose colored. They are black. Come back out of the rabbit hole and into the light (see I can talk in silly metaphors too).
Again you make noise but offer no ideas. Why do people experience survivor's guilt? Why do people knock on wood? Why do people experience panic attacks or never allow themselves to relax? So many things you never allow to enter into your attention, much less understand, are open for me. You can talk any way you like but there is only air behind what you say. You know it and I know it, but the same is not true of me. If you didn't hate yourself so much you wouldn't feel this need to argue. But you get all upset at the notion I know more than you. You are in love with your status quo. The notion that you have work to do on yourself upsets you. You aren't perfect and complete. Sorry, it's not my fault but it's a fact.
New organs of perception develop out of need, so, Oh Man, increase your need. A saying.
Oh, by the way, study mankind's great depository of wisdom, mythology. See the stories of quests where the prize is gotten after a descent into hell.
datalink7
Lifer
- Jan 23, 2001
- 16,765
- 6
- 81
The reason there wasn't any real substance behind my post was the whole point of my post. I thought that was clear, but apparently it wasn't.
I was mirroring your posting because, yes it's true, you don't have any substance. Saying "everyone hates themselves" because "I know the truth", and taking 5 paragraphs to say it, isn't substance.
You also apparently enjoy making a large amount of assumptions.
Where would you get a notion like that? Debating is a healthy exercise as it allows you to either grow in your own beliefs through further validation, or see contradiction and change your beliefs for better. Because I want to do this I hate myself? Sorry, you're wrong and that's a fact.
First, I'm not upset. Getting upset about arguments on the Internet isn't something I normally do unless I am really passionate about the subject. Actually, I don't really get upset all that often in life. Generally speaking I am calm almost all of the time. Yet another assumption wrong. I'm not upset.
And I don't know how much you know compared to how much I know. Maybe you do know, on aggregate, more than me. However, I do know that I dont' hate myself, so you are wrong about that. In this, there is at least one thing that I know more than you.
If the status quo is good what's wrong with that? But I wouldn't say I'm "in love" with it. Actually, I'm not even really sure what you are refering too... my beliefs? My lifestyel? What I like to eat? Maybe qualify your statement?
No it doesn't. I'm not upset. Stop assuming I am. Or don't stop assuming. But if you want to grow yourself making less assumptions and trying to actually learn the truth would help you. But you haven't proven that you actually want to grow. You seem content to live in your little bubble of "I'm right you're wrong." Your loss in the end.
Never said I was.
I do read mythology when I can. Recently re-read The Odyssey. So many things to read though. You can find lessons in more writings than just mythology. But I'm always opened to suggestions if you have a particular piece of liturature that I should add to my collection of things to read.
I think it would depend on the individual. Each persons experience is different and having one solution to all of life's problems is more than highly improbably. It might even border on hurtful to try to help someone by convincing themselves that they hate themselves, only to find that wasn't the problem at all.
But I haven't devoted a lot of time to this topic so I don't know the answer, if there is one. Besides, knocking on wood, while silly, isn't exactly a horrible behavior.
You say I haven't offered any answers. I didn't come in here to give answers. I came in here to answer your theory. You say that everyone hates themselves. I don't. Ergo, your theory is wrong. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.
You can now either take that knowledge and attempt to grow. Or you can shove it away and creep further into your hole. One way leads to further englightenment. And no, it isn't discarding what I said. The choice is yours.
palehorse
Lifer
- Dec 21, 2005
- 11,521
- 0
- 76
Moonbeam, this.
My being temporarily frustrated with civilians after returning from a combat zone has nothing at all to do with hating myself, and everything to do with simply re-adjusting to an environment that is dramatically different from said combat zone.
You can believe whatever you want about the human race; but, your "enlightenment" is your own, nothing more. I also believe that your theories may be your own personal self-fulfilling prophecy, which saddens me.
I'd hate to see all that hate eat you alive! After all, you amuse me!
datalink7: The reason there wasn't any real substance behind my post was the whole point of my post. I thought that was clear, but apparently it wasn't.
I was mirroring your posting because, yes it's true, you don't have any substance. Saying "everyone hates themselves" because "I know the truth", and taking 5 paragraphs to say it, isn't substance.
M: I understand that. The problem arises out of the fact that while you make the assumption that I have no substance you are incorrect so you can't mirror me by intentionally having no substance. I do not claim 'no substance' so there is nothing parallel or reflective in you stance. It only appears to be a mirror to you. You can't take my substance from me just because you can't see it.
d: You also apparently enjoy making a large amount of assumptions.
Again, the assumptions are yours. I told you that you can't see what I say and then you want to tell me I don't say anything. Hehe. I know. I can't say anything to you. You are deaf to it.
---------------------
M: "If you didn't hate yourself so much you wouldn't feel this need to argue."
d: Where would you get a notion like that? Debating is a healthy exercise as it allows you to either grow in your own beliefs through further validation, or see contradiction and change your beliefs for better. Because I want to do this I hate myself? Sorry, you're wrong and that's a fact.
M: This is how the situation appears to you. You can't understand where I get the notion because you don't have the experience to acquire it. It is out there in lala land for you. I don't doubt you think and see just as you described. Didn't I, however, mention you don't know what you feel. You aren't going to know a deeper truth about your motives without such knowledge. Having had my own similar naiveté ripped away, I know what you feel better than you do. Trust me, however, I know you don't believe that.
------------------
M: "But you get all upset at the notion I know more than you."
d: First, I'm not upset. Getting upset about arguments on the Internet isn't something I normally do unless I am really passionate about the subject. Actually, I don't really get upset all that often in life. Generally speaking I am calm almost all of the time. Yet another assumption wrong. I'm not upset.
M: You have the notion that you are a single 'I' or ego when in fact you are many, a fragmented mess, as it were.
If you are upset one time there is something wrong some inner conflict going on. And I addressed this subject to soldiers who have to face tremendous challenges to their psychic stability. Circumstances force them to face and feel feelings normal people much more successfully bury. The intensity of war and the soldiers youth are double whammies. I stand against your denial for them. We need to stop the bull shit game that we are OK. We are a mess and the world is dying and it's because we hate ourselves. This isn't personal and against you. You only typify a normal response and I am responding as I can.
d: And I don't know how much you know compared to how much I know. Maybe you do know, on aggregate, more than me. However, I do know that I don't' hate myself, so you are wrong about that. In this, there is at least one thing that I know more than you.
M: I don't know much and it doesn't matter. I know what you think you know, but you could be split open like a watermelon with the right circumstances. I know you believe as you do and I know you are being as honest as you can. I don't find any fault. I just know you don't know what I do, or what you feel.
-----------
M: "You are in love with your status quo."
d: If the status quo is good what's wrong with that? But I wouldn't say I'm "in love" with it. Actually, I'm not even really sure what you are referring too... my beliefs? My lifestyel? What I like to eat? Maybe qualify your statement?
M: I simply mean you are happier to stay with the known then entertain any notion you don't know what you feel.
---------------
M: "The notion that you have work to do on yourself upsets you"
d: No it doesn't. I'm not upset. Stop assuming I am. Or don't stop assuming. But if you want to grow yourself making less assumptions and trying to actually learn the truth would help you. But you haven't proven that you actually want to grow. You seem content to live in your little bubble of "I'm right you're wrong." Your loss in the end.
M: I learned the truth about me. We are the same. I know it and you don't. My bubble includes all of humanity.
-----------
M: "You aren't perfect and complete."
d: Never said I was.
M: Didn't say it because I thought you did
--------------
M: "Oh, by the way, study mankind's great depository of wisdom, mythology. See the stories of quests where the prize is gotten after a descent into hell."
d: I do read mythology when I can. Recently re-read The Odyssey. So many things to read though. You can find lessons in more writings than just mythology. But I'm always opened to suggestions if you have a particular piece of liturature that I should add to my collection of things to read.
M: See below
---------------
M: "Why do people experience survivor's guilt? Why do people knock on wood? Why do people experience panic attacks or never allow themselves to relax?"
d: I think it would depend on the individual. Each persons experience is different and having one solution to all of life's problems is more than highly improbably. It might even border on hurtful to try to help someone by convincing themselves that they hate themselves, only to find that wasn't the problem at all.
But I haven't devoted a lot of time to this topic so I don't know the answer, if there is one. Besides, knocking on wood, while silly, isn't exactly a horrible behavior.
M: Survivor's guilt isn't horrible behavior either. It is not a mater of that. All I was saying is that if people hate themselves and are the only survivors imagine the cognitive dissonance. Somebody who is worthless is the one who should have died. Why did good people die instead of a worthless shit like me. One simple explanation but it will have millions of variations. You know Occam's razor, yes?
d: You say I haven't offered any answers. I didn't come in here to give answers. I came in here to answer your theory. You say that everyone hates themselves. I don't. Ergo, your theory is wrong. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.
M: I came here to give answers. You came to deny mine. I said not only that people hate themselves, but that they don't know it and don't want to know it. You completely conform to my analysis so rather than proving me wrong, you demonstrate that I am right.
d: You can now either take that knowledge and attempt to grow. Or you can shove it away and creep further into your hole. One way leads to further englightenment. And no, it isn't discarding what I said. The choice is yours.
M: Because I know, I have no choice but to know.
==============
I went to see if there was some easy way to get into myth and I found this that I will do in a new post:
I was mirroring your posting because, yes it's true, you don't have any substance. Saying "everyone hates themselves" because "I know the truth", and taking 5 paragraphs to say it, isn't substance.
M: I understand that. The problem arises out of the fact that while you make the assumption that I have no substance you are incorrect so you can't mirror me by intentionally having no substance. I do not claim 'no substance' so there is nothing parallel or reflective in you stance. It only appears to be a mirror to you. You can't take my substance from me just because you can't see it.
d: You also apparently enjoy making a large amount of assumptions.
Again, the assumptions are yours. I told you that you can't see what I say and then you want to tell me I don't say anything. Hehe. I know. I can't say anything to you. You are deaf to it.
---------------------
M: "If you didn't hate yourself so much you wouldn't feel this need to argue."
d: Where would you get a notion like that? Debating is a healthy exercise as it allows you to either grow in your own beliefs through further validation, or see contradiction and change your beliefs for better. Because I want to do this I hate myself? Sorry, you're wrong and that's a fact.
M: This is how the situation appears to you. You can't understand where I get the notion because you don't have the experience to acquire it. It is out there in lala land for you. I don't doubt you think and see just as you described. Didn't I, however, mention you don't know what you feel. You aren't going to know a deeper truth about your motives without such knowledge. Having had my own similar naiveté ripped away, I know what you feel better than you do. Trust me, however, I know you don't believe that.
------------------
M: "But you get all upset at the notion I know more than you."
d: First, I'm not upset. Getting upset about arguments on the Internet isn't something I normally do unless I am really passionate about the subject. Actually, I don't really get upset all that often in life. Generally speaking I am calm almost all of the time. Yet another assumption wrong. I'm not upset.
M: You have the notion that you are a single 'I' or ego when in fact you are many, a fragmented mess, as it were.
If you are upset one time there is something wrong some inner conflict going on. And I addressed this subject to soldiers who have to face tremendous challenges to their psychic stability. Circumstances force them to face and feel feelings normal people much more successfully bury. The intensity of war and the soldiers youth are double whammies. I stand against your denial for them. We need to stop the bull shit game that we are OK. We are a mess and the world is dying and it's because we hate ourselves. This isn't personal and against you. You only typify a normal response and I am responding as I can.
d: And I don't know how much you know compared to how much I know. Maybe you do know, on aggregate, more than me. However, I do know that I don't' hate myself, so you are wrong about that. In this, there is at least one thing that I know more than you.
M: I don't know much and it doesn't matter. I know what you think you know, but you could be split open like a watermelon with the right circumstances. I know you believe as you do and I know you are being as honest as you can. I don't find any fault. I just know you don't know what I do, or what you feel.
-----------
M: "You are in love with your status quo."
d: If the status quo is good what's wrong with that? But I wouldn't say I'm "in love" with it. Actually, I'm not even really sure what you are referring too... my beliefs? My lifestyel? What I like to eat? Maybe qualify your statement?
M: I simply mean you are happier to stay with the known then entertain any notion you don't know what you feel.
---------------
M: "The notion that you have work to do on yourself upsets you"
d: No it doesn't. I'm not upset. Stop assuming I am. Or don't stop assuming. But if you want to grow yourself making less assumptions and trying to actually learn the truth would help you. But you haven't proven that you actually want to grow. You seem content to live in your little bubble of "I'm right you're wrong." Your loss in the end.
M: I learned the truth about me. We are the same. I know it and you don't. My bubble includes all of humanity.
-----------
M: "You aren't perfect and complete."
d: Never said I was.
M: Didn't say it because I thought you did
--------------
M: "Oh, by the way, study mankind's great depository of wisdom, mythology. See the stories of quests where the prize is gotten after a descent into hell."
d: I do read mythology when I can. Recently re-read The Odyssey. So many things to read though. You can find lessons in more writings than just mythology. But I'm always opened to suggestions if you have a particular piece of liturature that I should add to my collection of things to read.
M: See below
---------------
M: "Why do people experience survivor's guilt? Why do people knock on wood? Why do people experience panic attacks or never allow themselves to relax?"
d: I think it would depend on the individual. Each persons experience is different and having one solution to all of life's problems is more than highly improbably. It might even border on hurtful to try to help someone by convincing themselves that they hate themselves, only to find that wasn't the problem at all.
But I haven't devoted a lot of time to this topic so I don't know the answer, if there is one. Besides, knocking on wood, while silly, isn't exactly a horrible behavior.
M: Survivor's guilt isn't horrible behavior either. It is not a mater of that. All I was saying is that if people hate themselves and are the only survivors imagine the cognitive dissonance. Somebody who is worthless is the one who should have died. Why did good people die instead of a worthless shit like me. One simple explanation but it will have millions of variations. You know Occam's razor, yes?
d: You say I haven't offered any answers. I didn't come in here to give answers. I came in here to answer your theory. You say that everyone hates themselves. I don't. Ergo, your theory is wrong. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.
M: I came here to give answers. You came to deny mine. I said not only that people hate themselves, but that they don't know it and don't want to know it. You completely conform to my analysis so rather than proving me wrong, you demonstrate that I am right.
d: You can now either take that knowledge and attempt to grow. Or you can shove it away and creep further into your hole. One way leads to further englightenment. And no, it isn't discarding what I said. The choice is yours.
M: Because I know, I have no choice but to know.
==============
I went to see if there was some easy way to get into myth and I found this that I will do in a new post:
I believe that myth is a repository of deep human psychological knowledge, a mirror of psychological truth. I went looking for something that might express that idea and found an analysis, I guess, of a book by Joseph Campbell in which, apparently, he argues there is a central theme to world mythology he calls the Monomyth. Apparently some other nut case has seen a single thread that explains everything, hehe:
Joseph Campbell?s Monomyth (Hero With A Thousand Faces)
The standard path of the mythological adventure of the hero is a magnification of the formula represented in the rites of passage: separation--initiation--return: which might be named the nuclear unit of the monomyth.
Stages of the hero?s journey:
1. Birth: Fabulous circumstances surrounding conception, birth, and childhood establish the hero?s pedigree, and often constitute their own monomyth cycle.
M: Notice here that not just any worthless asshole can be a hero. You and I are too damn worthless.
2. Call to Adventure: The hero is called to adventure by some external event or messenger. The Hero may accept the call willingly or reluctantly.
M: I'm going to put datalink and palehorse in the reluctant category. One really big event is war. Another can be some emotional shock that open the iron clad weld that bottles away what we really feel. For a princess it can be a pea under the 39th mattress.
3. Helpers/Amulet: During the early stages of the journey, the hero will often receive aid from a protective figure. This supernatural helper can take a wide variety of forms, such as a wizard, and old man, a dwarf, a crone, or a fairy godmother. The helper commonly gives the hero a protective amulet or weapon for the journey.
M: Somebody not to normal, shall we say. Somebody who is a bit suspicious to most folk. Somebody a bit dangerous even. Somebody who brings a shield of knowledge, the knowledge that your feelings are a lie and that you can win and are really OK.
4. Crossing the Threshold: Upon reaching the threshold of adventure, the hero must undergo some sort of ordeal in order to pass from the everyday world into the world of adventure. This trial may be as painless as entering a dark cave or as violent as being swallowed up by a whale. The important feature is the contrast between the familiar world of light and the dark, unknown world of adventure.
M: This is the moment when the seeker is initiated into the fact that reality as he knows it isn't reality at all, that there is an unseen world, an unconscious truth and feeling he didn't know about. This is the awakening of the unconscious, the realization that there are monsters hidden there, projections of self hate.
5. Tests: The hero travels through the dream-like world of adventure where he must undergo a series of tests. These trials are often violent encounters with monsters, sorcerers, warriors, or forces of nature. Each successful test further proves the hero's ability and advances the journey toward its climax.
M: The journey into the unconscious, the awakening of what we really feel is like pealing an onion. There are many stages and traumatic layers that need to be uncovered. Each is just like dying or being eaten by beasts.
6. Helpers: The hero is often accompanied on the journey by a helper who assists in the series of tests and generally serves as a loyal companion. Alternately, the hero may encounter a supernatural helper in the world of adventure who fulfills this function.
M: Others have gone before and know the way. They are supernatural only to ordinary reality. They know what others do not, having already gone down the road before.
7. Climax/The Final Battle: This is the critical moment in the hero's journey in which there is often a final battle with a monster, wizard, or warrior which facilitates the particular resolution of the adventure.
M: When the mind has relived the past so thoroughly, when the grieving is complete, the feelings of self hate are finally seen as lies. The person remembers his history, what happened and who he really is. There is a last skin to the onion and no more.
8. Flight: After accomplishing the mission, the hero must return to the threshold of adventure and prepare for a return to the everyday world. If the hero has angered the opposing forces by stealing the elixir or killing a powerful monster, the return may take the form of a hasty flight. If the hero has been given the elixir freely, the flight may be a benign stage of the journey.
M: A transformed consciousness needs to reintegrate.
9. Return: The hero again crosses the threshold of adventure and returns to the everyday world of daylight. The return usually takes the form of an awakening, rebirth, resurrection, or a simple emergence from a cave or forest. Sometimes the hero is pulled out of the adventure world by a force from the daylight world.
10. Elixir: The object, knowledge, or blessing that the hero acquired during the adventure is now put to use in the everyday world. Often it has a restorative or healing function, but it also serves to define the hero's role in the society.
M: Good luck.
11. Home: The hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons on his fellow man.
Joseph Campbell?s Monomyth (Hero With A Thousand Faces)
The standard path of the mythological adventure of the hero is a magnification of the formula represented in the rites of passage: separation--initiation--return: which might be named the nuclear unit of the monomyth.
Stages of the hero?s journey:
1. Birth: Fabulous circumstances surrounding conception, birth, and childhood establish the hero?s pedigree, and often constitute their own monomyth cycle.
M: Notice here that not just any worthless asshole can be a hero. You and I are too damn worthless.
2. Call to Adventure: The hero is called to adventure by some external event or messenger. The Hero may accept the call willingly or reluctantly.
M: I'm going to put datalink and palehorse in the reluctant category.
One really big event is war. Another can be some emotional shock that open the iron clad weld that bottles away what we really feel. For a princess it can be a pea under the 39th mattress.3. Helpers/Amulet: During the early stages of the journey, the hero will often receive aid from a protective figure. This supernatural helper can take a wide variety of forms, such as a wizard, and old man, a dwarf, a crone, or a fairy godmother. The helper commonly gives the hero a protective amulet or weapon for the journey.
M: Somebody not to normal, shall we say. Somebody who is a bit suspicious to most folk. Somebody a bit dangerous even. Somebody who brings a shield of knowledge, the knowledge that your feelings are a lie and that you can win and are really OK.
4. Crossing the Threshold: Upon reaching the threshold of adventure, the hero must undergo some sort of ordeal in order to pass from the everyday world into the world of adventure. This trial may be as painless as entering a dark cave or as violent as being swallowed up by a whale. The important feature is the contrast between the familiar world of light and the dark, unknown world of adventure.
M: This is the moment when the seeker is initiated into the fact that reality as he knows it isn't reality at all, that there is an unseen world, an unconscious truth and feeling he didn't know about. This is the awakening of the unconscious, the realization that there are monsters hidden there, projections of self hate.
5. Tests: The hero travels through the dream-like world of adventure where he must undergo a series of tests. These trials are often violent encounters with monsters, sorcerers, warriors, or forces of nature. Each successful test further proves the hero's ability and advances the journey toward its climax.
M: The journey into the unconscious, the awakening of what we really feel is like pealing an onion. There are many stages and traumatic layers that need to be uncovered. Each is just like dying or being eaten by beasts.
6. Helpers: The hero is often accompanied on the journey by a helper who assists in the series of tests and generally serves as a loyal companion. Alternately, the hero may encounter a supernatural helper in the world of adventure who fulfills this function.
M: Others have gone before and know the way. They are supernatural only to ordinary reality. They know what others do not, having already gone down the road before.
7. Climax/The Final Battle: This is the critical moment in the hero's journey in which there is often a final battle with a monster, wizard, or warrior which facilitates the particular resolution of the adventure.
M: When the mind has relived the past so thoroughly, when the grieving is complete, the feelings of self hate are finally seen as lies. The person remembers his history, what happened and who he really is. There is a last skin to the onion and no more.
8. Flight: After accomplishing the mission, the hero must return to the threshold of adventure and prepare for a return to the everyday world. If the hero has angered the opposing forces by stealing the elixir or killing a powerful monster, the return may take the form of a hasty flight. If the hero has been given the elixir freely, the flight may be a benign stage of the journey.
M: A transformed consciousness needs to reintegrate.
9. Return: The hero again crosses the threshold of adventure and returns to the everyday world of daylight. The return usually takes the form of an awakening, rebirth, resurrection, or a simple emergence from a cave or forest. Sometimes the hero is pulled out of the adventure world by a force from the daylight world.
10. Elixir: The object, knowledge, or blessing that the hero acquired during the adventure is now put to use in the everyday world. Often it has a restorative or healing function, but it also serves to define the hero's role in the society.
M: Good luck.
11. Home: The hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons on his fellow man.
Originally posted by: palehorse
Moonbeam, this.
My being temporarily frustrated with civilians after returning from a combat zone has nothing at all to do with hating myself, and everything to do with simply re-adjusting to an environment that is dramatically different from said combat zone.
You can believe whatever you want about the human race; but, your "enlightenment" is your own, nothing more. I also believe that your theories may be your own personal self-fulfilling prophecy, which saddens me.
I'd hate to see all that hate eat you alive! After all, you amuse me!
What saddens me is that there is probably not a soldier suicide victim who wouldn't have argued just like you and perhaps only days before they took their lives. It is only for that reason that I challenge you. I will suggest, however, that the more you know you hate the less you will. For you hate is of the other, but for me it's just an indication I have an other onion skin to peal, some new area where my feelings of worthlessness have been touched that I didn't consciously know about.
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