More jobs going offshore *update*

[StageLeft]

The government has no right to tell a PRIVATE business how it can do business. That is the consumers job.

Sorry, there are plenty of laws that influence our economy. One I can think of is a monopoly. Capitalism does not work without restrictions such as anti-monopoly laws. And there are already laws concerning imports and exports. Plenty of them.

Consumers are not all powerful.

 

[Frdm51472]

And the fact that you are wanting more laws. Its very leftist of you, but I am all for the government not ruling over the private sector. Explain to me how the monopoly laws have anything to do with telling an employer who it can or cannot hire.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Frdm51472
And the fact that you are wanting more laws. Its very leftist of you, but I am all for the government not ruling over the private sector. Explain to me how the monopoly laws have anything to do with telling an employer who it can or cannot hire.

I didn't say I did want new laws. I said

If indeed this constant flow of offshoring is going to negatively impact the economy long term, the only way around it is with new laws and regulations.

.

You said

The government has no right to tell a PRIVATE business how it can do business. That is the consumers job.

to which I replied

Sorry, there are plenty of laws that influence our economy. One I can think of is a monopoly. Capitalism does not work without restrictions such as anti-monopoly laws.

Let's not make this more than it is. The government already influences the private sector. One area of that is monopoly laws. Another is import/export tarifs.

 

[Frdm51472]

Let's not give up any more rights than we need to. What you are suggesting is a knee-jerk reaction to a few americans getting laid off. If we gave up liberties everytime we felt sorry for someone we would have no freedoms left.

 

[rh71]

IBM Global Services, which makes up the biggest percent of IBMers and the biggest revenue maker continues without many layoffs. It's unfortunate these software jobs are going elsewhere ... but I wouldn't know how else a company could stay so much afloat without cutting back somewhere. You may recall semiconductor divisions have cut back. It's not so much moving the jobs elsewhere that you should be concerned about - it's a fact that they needed to cut spending, period. They've already made changes to benefit plans, pension plans, etc. to avoid layoffs in the past couple of years. That's a long time to withhold action. None of the IBM executives received pay raises last year.

 

[Zombie]

IBM is blotted anyway.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Frdm51472
Let's not give up any more rights than we need to. What you are suggesting is a knee-jerk reaction to a few americans getting laid off. If we gave up liberties everytime we felt sorry for someone we would have no freedoms left.

Not sure what you're referring to with knee jerk. I'll reiterate that I didn't say we should have new laws. I said

If indeed this constant flow of offshoring is going to negatively impact the economy long term, the only way around it is with new laws and regulations.

Obviously the "If" condition would require study by economists and would be the result of a definite trend with a forseeable end result of a worsened economy. If IT loses a few thousand jobs here and there we have no problems. But, if walmart starts importing everything, levi strauss keeps importing everything, 90% of IT jobs leave, manufacturing leaves...well you have a problem.

And the few Americans you speak of (few actually being hundreds of thousands, at least) represent a rising trend there is no need to wait until the GDP drops through the floor to do something about it.

AGAIN I don't know if that will happen. It's for economists to determine, but telling consumers that they can shop elsewhere just will not work. Much as the human race is eating itself out of a home (the planet) with little regard for the future, so too can consumers buy themselves out of a job. On an individual basis consumers have no power and they realize this, so they buy the cheapest. As a group they do, but without organization that group won't exist. Boycotting rarely works, which is why a law in that case would.

 

[Frdm51472]

Yep, you still sound like you are content to sit back and let the US government decide what is best for you.

 

[FeathersMcGraw]

Originally posted by: Frdm51472
Yep, you still sound like you are content to sit back and let the US government decide what is best for you.

That's what a representative government does.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Frdm51472
Yep, you still sound like you are content to sit back and let the US government decide what is best for you.

Your right-wing auto-answer button is on repeat. You aren't even thinking, merely spewing right-wing anti-government sillyness.

IF - (for the fourth time) this outsourcing trend will represent a significant hit to the economy how do you propose to fix that?

 

[KGB1]

Why do people have such Nationalistic pride when companies transfer jobs to other nations? IBM is not American. (well most people can refute it and say it started here, blah blah.. as american as apple pie) Cut to the bottom line, Corporations have no national identity, they trade with anyone at will, they produce in whichever area (nation) that offer's them the best incentive to produce and and maximize their profits.

Sure we lose jobs here, just imagine the job growth in China & India. It's great for them no? Why is the US only deserving of those tech and office jobs?

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: KGB
Why do people have such Nationalistic pride when companies transfer jobs to other nations? IBM is not American. (well most people can refute it and say it started here, blah blah.. as american as apple pie) Cut to the bottom line, Corporations have no national identity, they trade with anyone at will, they produce in whichever area (nation) that offer's them the best incentive to produce and and maximize their profits.

Sure we lose jobs here, just imagine the job growth in China & India. It's great for them no? Why is the US only deserving of those tech and office jobs?

I think the easy answer for that is because we don't live in China and India. That's great that their economies are doing better, but selfishly, who wants to see another economy do better at the expense of their own?

 

[Frdm51472]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Frdm51472
Yep, you still sound like you are content to sit back and let the US government decide what is best for you.

Your right-wing auto-answer button is on repeat. You aren't even thinking, merely spewing right-wing anti-government sillyness.

IF - (for the fourth time) this outsourcing trend will represent a significant hit to the economy how do you propose to fix that?

By letting the economy adjust itself. The economy is consumer driven, not government driven.

 

[Aharami]

The IBM facilities where workers could be replaced include offices in Dallas, Southbury, Conn., Poughkeepsie, N.Y., Raleigh, N.C., and Boulder, Colo.

damn....my buddy works in Poughkeepsie. I hope his job is not in jeopardy!!

 

[FeathersMcGraw]

Originally posted by: KGB
Why do people have such Nationalistic pride when companies transfer jobs to other nations? IBM is not American. (well most people can refute it and say it started here, blah blah.. as american as apple pie) Cut to the bottom line, Corporations have no national identity, they trade with anyone at will, they produce in whichever area (nation) that offer's them the best incentive to produce and and maximize their profits.

You're mistaking domestic economic concerns with nationalism. For most people, "buy American" doesn't mean "purchase American products because we're the best nation on Earth", it means "purchase American products so I, who live in the United States, don't lose my job". Although it's certainly more rousing to spin the issue the first way.

 

[SP33Demon]

Oh the horror!? What ever will the Americans laid off do?? Here's a clue: learn a new skill and stop whining about it.

 

[KGB1]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: KGB
Why do people have such Nationalistic pride when companies transfer jobs to other nations? IBM is not American. (well most people can refute it and say it started here, blah blah.. as american as apple pie) Cut to the bottom line, Corporations have no national identity, they trade with anyone at will, they produce in whichever area (nation) that offer's them the best incentive to produce and and maximize their profits.

Sure we lose jobs here, just imagine the job growth in China & India. It's great for them no? Why is the US only deserving of those tech and office jobs?

I think the easy answer for that is because we don't live in China and India. That's great that their economies are doing better, but selfishly, who wants to see another economy do better at the expense of their own?

Well there you have it. In the strive for a company to achieve maximum profits, downsized streamline workforce; national pride and selfishness is the externality that hinders that path. Maybe I've been hitting the mIcroEconomics book hard last night, so I'm still thinkig about perfect competition. Ohhh.. can't we just be happy for the indians and chinese then?

 

[StageLeft]

By letting the economy adjust itself. The economy is consumer driven, not government driven.

It can be entirely consumer driven. Thank God it isn't. If it was, and we had no monopoly laws, the country would be in a mess. I'm sure you're aware of what happens without them. Walmart would destroy the competition by slashing their prices even lower, and taking a hit for a while. Then, when they're doing only so-so and losing money, but target and others have been destroyed, walmart will come in and jack prices up again to sky high levels. Somebody else comes in with lower? Well walmart will put a store next to them and give things away for free.

Capitalism is not magically self-correcting. Run amuck, it's not a good system at all, and that's why every nation on the planet that has a capitalist market has government checks to ensure things don't get out of hand.

 

[TommyVercetti]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Oh the horror!? What ever will the Americans laid off do?? Here's a clue: learn a new skill and stop whining about it.

People already spent 4-8 years getting their degrees to get those jobs. It's not for everyone to just learn another skill and get a new job. A whole lot of sectors are sending jobs oversears, it's not just engineering and computers.

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: Imdmn04
I love it how people hates outsorcing but still buy a bunch of DELLs from hot deals every other week.
If you dont like them, do something about it and boycott them. Put your money where your mouth is and dont buy any items from dell or IBM, yes, that means not even when there is a hot deal.

But it seems that most people dont understand this is a 2way street, you wanna buy cheap stuff, then the company is gotta somehow find a way to make it cheap enough in order to appeal to the buyers. How many here would sacrifice the cheap prices for more employed americans? You all say you would, but when the next hot deal comes along, you guys are the ones who are quickest to login into dell.com

Thats the way it was where I used to live. Lots of textile manufacturing. Everyone grumbled cause the plants they worked at closed and went to Mexico, yet you would see them happily gobble up the clothes on sale at Walmart.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: TommyVercetti

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Oh the horror!? What ever will the Americans laid off do?? Here's a clue: learn a new skill and stop whining about it.

People already spent 4-8 years getting their degrees to get those jobs. It's not for everyone to just learn another skill and get a new job. A whole lot of sectors are sending jobs oversears, it's not just engineering and computers.

And either way - loss of jobs and income across the board in America will hurt everybody, including those still employed.

 

[KGB1]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

By letting the economy adjust itself. The economy is consumer driven, not government driven.

It can be entirely consumer driven. Thank God it isn't. If it was, and we had no monopoly laws, the country would be in a mess. I'm sure you're aware of what happens without them. Walmart would destroy the competition by slashing their prices even lower, and taking a hit for a while. Then, when they're doing only so-so and losing money, but target and others have been destroyed, walmart will come in and jack prices up again to sky high levels. Somebody else comes in with lower? Well walmart will put a store next to them and give things away for free.

Capitalism is not magically self-correcting. Run amuck, it's not a good system at all, and that's why every nation on the planet that has a capitalist market has government checks to ensure things don't get out of hand.

Went down a slippery slope there skoorb. Sure for some time Wal-Mart would be the king of the hill when it comes to consumers purchasing goods. But we do have anti-monopolistic laws, and as long as there is a market and ability to make profits = to the average variable cost then we will see more companies (target, kmart) make a come back to saturate and level the market.

Also, who's to stop P&G, General Mills, Palmolive etc.. to discontinue shipping to wal-mart and stop giving them exclusive deals. They don't reap any profits, they sell at a price that is slightly above the average total cost. If they got greedy and charged higher to wal-mart. Wal mart would go into the sh!tter also. Producers play a major role too.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: TommyVercetti

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Oh the horror!? What ever will the Americans laid off do?? Here's a clue: learn a new skill and stop whining about it.

People already spent 4-8 years getting their degrees to get those jobs. It's not for everyone to just learn another skill and get a new job. A whole lot of sectors are sending jobs oversears, it's not just engineering and computers.

I disagree. Programmers are being sent overseas (don't require a degree), not software developers (which require a degree). There is a big difference... guaranteed a person with their master's in CS isn't going to be coined a "programmer". Go to salary.com if you don't believe me, there are "architects", "programmers", "engineers", and "developers".

 

[StageLeft]

Unfortunately those companies can't charge higher to walmart because walmart will discontinue their line and take any number of competitors for, say Palmolive. Then palmolive will watch as their competitor has customers in the biggest retail store in the world looking at their products on the isles. In some ways walmart is already a monopoly, and that is indeed a slippery slope because differentiating between a successful company (Microsoft) and a monopoly (Microsoft?) is pretty hard!

I disagree. Programmers are being sent overseas (don't require a degree), not software developers (which require a degree). There is a big difference... guaranteed a person with their master's in CS isn't going to be coined a "programmer". Go to salary.com if you don't believe me, there are "architects", "programmers", "engineers", and "developers".

Sounds a bit like semantics! A job like software developing, programming, or whatever, can easily be done at a distance. Mechanics will not see their jobs shipped overseas, but something that can be shot over the internet in no time will. And India has plenty of people with degrees. Entire software shops (including the high level architects) exist over there, taking jobs that could be done here.

 

[Mister T]

The solution to this problem lies not with government or the consumer, rather with the laborer that gets fired. Do not invest your human capital in jobs that are commoditized where you can be easily replaced. Find a job that your boss can't outsource. Thats what I did when I graduated school.