More good news from GM, Ford

[outriding]

Originally posted by: SigArms08

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: AstroManLuca
Yeah WTF mate. I tend to prefer Japanese cars for their solid reliability but it's not like I wish death on American companies just because I prefer someone else's product. GM and Ford have improved a ton in recent years and they deserve to be given a chance to bounce back. They're finally getting the hint and if they almost die then maybe it'll be a wake-up call for them.

Also, they might not be in as much trouble as the American companies, but Japanese carmakers took a huge hit a couple days ago when the Japanese stock indexes fell almost 10%.

I see them and as symbolic of a problem that people need to stop denying themselves about.

What problem(s) are you referring to, Skoorb? Failures of past executive leadership that failed to take the proper action are reasons to send hundreds of thousands of people to the unemployment lines (don't forget about the supply chain and all services that would be impacted)? GM has made tremendous strides these past few years. Sure it took an incredibly long time for them to wake the heck up, but it began happening in the 90's. You know who's to blame - the greedy corporate leadership of yesterday, not the american worker. Is it their fault that the past leadership willingly gave in to excessive union demands (don't get me wrong, union shares a part of the blame for inefficiencies/waste....just like any union).

Where's this SERIOUS quality deficiency that you allude to? In the JD Powers Top 5 Compact cars in Dependability, GM has its Pontiac Vibe.
2008 initial quality, JD powers gives Pontiac's Grand Prix the top award for large cars(http://www.jdpower.com/autos/r...ding/page-#page-anchor).
2008 Initial Quality for Midsize cars went to Chevy Malibu and the Ford Fusion was right behind it http://www.jdpower.com/autos/r...y-category/midsize-car

But do go on, you seem to know SO much about the auto industry and its efforts to turn things around. Punish the employees who are working to turn this mess around, that's absolutely brilliant of you. Will you also call for the execution of future generations of taxpayers because of the crazy debt that our current government leadership has brought about?

Did you realize the vibe is based off of a Toyota ?

is based on the Toyota Corolla's E-platform

linkydo

And lets not forget GM pays people not to work.

Excellent management skillz

 

[ericlp]

I wonder how many honda civics we could have got for 25Billion? Probably one for ever US citizen... Hell, if we were giving it away, I'll take a honda. Thanks.

Fuck the big three, I hope they die quickly since they haven't produced any green cars and made poor judgment calls from the last 3-5 years. Not to mention questionable reliability. It's almost embarrassing for the US to even put ford or GM names on cars.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: SoundTheSurrender

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
There is no reason for them to survive. Toyota, Honda, and Nissan make better cars AND trucks now. Their death knell has sounded, and they shouldn't have been approved for that bailout loan since they'll never be able to pay it back.

chevy and ford make better cars than either nissan or toyota.

haha. Ok dude.

seriously. Toyotas have lost most of their quality in recent years, and nissan imo was never very good in the first place. On the other hand build quaility for gm and ford has been steadily increasing, and tbh i think chevy has probably my favorite lineup of cars atm.

 

[retrospooty]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

seriously. Toyotas have lost most of their quality in recent years, and nissan imo was never very good in the first place. On the other hand build quaility for gm and ford has been steadily increasing, and tbh i think chevy has probably my favorite lineup of cars atm.

thats what they have been telling us for the past 15 years... and initial quality does seem better - yet they still arent lasting nearly as long as Honda's or even Toyota's. They dont hold thier value either - thats a real testament to the longevity.

Not there yet, not by a longshot.

 

[Ktulu]

Originally posted by: retrospooty

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

seriously. Toyotas have lost most of their quality in recent years, and nissan imo was never very good in the first place. On the other hand build quaility for gm and ford has been steadily increasing, and tbh i think chevy has probably my favorite lineup of cars atm.

thats what they have been telling us for the past 15 years... and initial quality does seem better - yet they still arent lasting nearly as long as Honda's or even Toyota's. They dont hold thier value either - thats a real testament to the longevity.

Not there yet, not by a longshot.

Riiiiiiight, cuz there aren't millions of domestics out there with 200K + miles on them and still running fine. My Silverado is 4 years old and after a good cleaning it looks and feels just as solid as the day I bought it.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
There is no reason for them to survive. Toyota, Honda, and Nissan make better cars AND trucks now. Their death knell has sounded, and they shouldn't have been approved for that bailout loan since they'll never be able to pay it back.

Um, no.

The newest cars from Ford and GM are every bit a match for the Japanese. It's just going to take a while for people to realise this and for sales to react. They will continue to pay for their poor products in the 1980's and 1990's in the minds of buyers for a good while to come, but the actual current products are indeed fine automobiles. If they can get through the next decade and if they continue to produce cars as good as or better than the ones they are producing now, they will be OK.

ZV

 

[OokiiNeko]

Well you see the problem there is that GM and Ford both make way better cars than they used to IN EUROPE.

Fixed that for you. No reason those cars cannot be sold here.

So why aren`t they doing it?

That`s the question most here refuse to ask.

(Except for the laughable assertion that they wouldn`t sell.)

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: SoundTheSurrender

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
There is no reason for them to survive. Toyota, Honda, and Nissan make better cars AND trucks now. Their death knell has sounded, and they shouldn't have been approved for that bailout loan since they'll never be able to pay it back.

chevy and ford make better cars than either nissan or toyota.

haha. Ok dude.

seriously. Toyotas have lost most of their quality in recent years...

1) "Toyota has sold more hybrids in the US than any other company."
2) "Toyota is speeding up the development of vehicles that run only on electricity with the aim of mass-producing them in the early part of next decade."
No other company has plans for this, the closest is the Chevy Volt (which is still a plugin).
3) 2008 Environmental rankings - For all this "green talk", why isn't Chevy getting at least a 4? Toyota destroys GM/Ford. And look at Cadillac, GMC, Dodge with 2's. Wtf? LOL
4) 2008 Dependability - Toyota wins again over GM/Ford. Only Cadillac is even with Toyota, and Lexus beats them both.
5) 2008 Overall Quality - Toyota as well as Lexus win again over GM/Ford, no surprise. Even Cadillac is ranked lower than Toyota, LOL.
6) From previous post since you're illiterate: "The Tundra was nominated for the North American Truck of the Year award and was Motor Trend magazine's Truck of the Year in 2000 and 2008. As of 2007, the Tundra (now in its second generation) holds 17% of the 1/2 ton full-size pickup market beating the GMC Sierra in monthly sales, but still behind the Ford F-150."
Wait, wasn't the saving grace of GM supposed to be their truck line?

In conclusion, you might want to retract your idiotic statement above. It's a fact that Toyota puts out a better product. And until GM/Ford change their corporate culture, they're screwed. It's not even worth sinking our taxpayer money into them anymore, it could better spent finding an alternative fuel solution.
Edit: I actually drive a 1997 Buick that I love. So while I would like to give GM a better rating, I'm not going to disillusion myself that they're better than Toyota. My Tacoma was one of the best trucks I've ever driven (had a Silverado, Ranger, and Frontier as well).

 

[retrospooty]

Originally posted by: Ktulu

Originally posted by: retrospooty

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

seriously. Toyotas have lost most of their quality in recent years, and nissan imo was never very good in the first place. On the other hand build quaility for gm and ford has been steadily increasing, and tbh i think chevy has probably my favorite lineup of cars atm.

thats what they have been telling us for the past 15 years... and initial quality does seem better - yet they still arent lasting nearly as long as Honda's or even Toyota's. They dont hold thier value either - thats a real testament to the longevity.

Not there yet, not by a longshot.

Riiiiiiight, cuz there aren't millions of domestics out there with 200K + miles on them and still running fine. My Silverado is 4 years old and after a good cleaning it looks and feels just as solid as the day I bought it.

US Trucks = mostly OK, thier cars are a totally different story. They have been surviving off trucks and SUV's for the past decase. The Cars = Ass. Ans as you know, witht he gas prices, the truck/SUV market died this year... thus the issue.

 

[retrospooty]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

The newest cars from Ford and GM are every bit a match for the Japanese. It's just going to take a while for people to realise this and for sales to react.
ZV

They keep saying that and it keeps turning out wrong.... But lerts assume its correct for now. It is going to take a long time to prove it. Lets see how many 2008 models are on the road in 2018 vs Honda/Toyota. THATS the key stat US car makers never want to talk about. They make too much money replacing the alternator and water pump every 2 years

 

[Ktulu]

Originally posted by: retrospooty

US Trucks = mostly OK, thier cars are a totally different story. They have been surviving off trucks and SUV's for the past decase. The Cars = Ass. Ans as you know, witht he gas prices, the truck/SUV market died this year... thus the issue.

Yes of course it's true that do to the hit that SUV's and Trucks took they've lost ALOT of profit. But, NO, there cars =/= Ass. I could name plenty of domestic cars I would gladly take over import, but then again I don't have my head stuck in the sand and also carry no bias either way.

 

[retrospooty]

Originally posted by: Ktulu

Originally posted by: retrospooty

US Trucks = mostly OK, thier cars are a totally different story. They have been surviving off trucks and SUV's for the past decase. The Cars = Ass. Ans as you know, witht he gas prices, the truck/SUV market died this year... thus the issue.

Yes of course it's true that do to the hit that SUV's and Trucks took they've lost ALOT of profit. But, NO, there cars =/= Ass. I could name plenty of domestic cars I would gladly take over import, but then again I don't have my head stuck in the sand and also carry no bias either way.

Thats fine, its perfectly within your right to buy what you want... But I would gladly take ANY 10 year old Japanese car over ANY 10 year old american car and I dont think that will change 10 years from now. The american car companies have been "improving, this time for sure" for the past 15 years... Its like Lucy and Charlie brown with the football. No, this time, its really better... and it never is.

 

[Ktulu]

Originally posted by: retrospooty

Originally posted by: Ktulu

Originally posted by: retrospooty

US Trucks = mostly OK, thier cars are a totally different story. They have been surviving off trucks and SUV's for the past decase. The Cars = Ass. Ans as you know, witht he gas prices, the truck/SUV market died this year... thus the issue.

Yes of course it's true that do to the hit that SUV's and Trucks took they've lost ALOT of profit. But, NO, there cars =/= Ass. I could name plenty of domestic cars I would gladly take over import, but then again I don't have my head stuck in the sand and also carry no bias either way.

Thats fine, its perfectly within your right to buy what you want... But I would gladly take ANY 10 year old Japanese car over ANY 10 year old american car and I dont think that will change 10 years from now. The american car companies have been "improving, this time for sure" for the past 15 years... Its like Lucy and Charlie brown with the football. No, this time, its really better... and it never is.

I totally understand where you're coming from. There is definatly a history there of over promising and not delivering to the point that alot of people just ignore now. But for those of us who choose not to ignore and actually bother to follow up on their claims and see that yes things have improved, it is up to us to try to make others see. But if you just don't care then sorry for wasting your time. /shrug.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: retrospooty

Originally posted by: zephyrprime

Originally posted by: Ktulu

Originally posted by: Skoorb
The sooner they die, the sooner we can stop lying to ourselves

I'm curious what are "we" lying to our selves about?

we = Americans.

How often do you hear people talking about how we are about to lose our position as one of the leading car manufacturing nations in the world? That's whats about to happen. GM and F have made some bad decisions but I blame the prior unions and management for these problems. Those guys negotiated unaffordable "fringe" benefits for the unions that they knew would be a big burden on the companies in the future but they didn't care because they knew that they would be retired by the time the check came due. Also, focusing on big vehicles so much was a mistake.

Sure, unions cost alot, but the reason they are hurting is 30+ years of piss poor quality and mismanagement. Anyone that doesnt see that simply isnt paying attention. Honda, toyota and the others wouldnt be anywhere if the US could make a decent car that doesnt fall apart in 5 years.

lol sounds like you're the one not paying attn.

 

[Deeko]

I kinda want to buy 100 shares of Ford. It's so cheap...if it crashes, big deal, it's only $200, but it has a lot of potential to go up.....

 

[thirtythree]

Wait a second, this doesn't sound like good news.

 

[Juddog]

I read in the recent Car & Driver that Ford is finally going to start building and shipping some of it's smaller economy class cars for the states. Too bad the cars will actually be built in Mexico.

 

[Ktulu]

Originally posted by: Juddog
I read in the recent Car & Driver that Ford is finally going to start building and shipping some of it's smaller economy class cars for the states. Too bad the cars will actually be built in Mexico.

Oh shut up with that please go do some research and look at how many manufacturing plants GM and Ford have in the US alone vs. the foreign brands. Stop going by the crap you read off the net.

 

[SigArms08]

Originally posted by: outriding

Originally posted by: SigArms08

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: AstroManLuca
Yeah WTF mate. I tend to prefer Japanese cars for their solid reliability but it's not like I wish death on American companies just because I prefer someone else's product. GM and Ford have improved a ton in recent years and they deserve to be given a chance to bounce back. They're finally getting the hint and if they almost die then maybe it'll be a wake-up call for them.

Also, they might not be in as much trouble as the American companies, but Japanese carmakers took a huge hit a couple days ago when the Japanese stock indexes fell almost 10%.

I see them and as symbolic of a problem that people need to stop denying themselves about.

What problem(s) are you referring to, Skoorb? Failures of past executive leadership that failed to take the proper action are reasons to send hundreds of thousands of people to the unemployment lines (don't forget about the supply chain and all services that would be impacted)? GM has made tremendous strides these past few years. Sure it took an incredibly long time for them to wake the heck up, but it began happening in the 90's. You know who's to blame - the greedy corporate leadership of yesterday, not the american worker. Is it their fault that the past leadership willingly gave in to excessive union demands (don't get me wrong, union shares a part of the blame for inefficiencies/waste....just like any union).

Where's this SERIOUS quality deficiency that you allude to? In the JD Powers Top 5 Compact cars in Dependability, GM has its Pontiac Vibe.
2008 initial quality, JD powers gives Pontiac's Grand Prix the top award for large cars(http://www.jdpower.com/autos/r...ding/page-#page-anchor).
2008 Initial Quality for Midsize cars went to Chevy Malibu and the Ford Fusion was right behind it http://www.jdpower.com/autos/r...y-category/midsize-car

But do go on, you seem to know SO much about the auto industry and its efforts to turn things around. Punish the employees who are working to turn this mess around, that's absolutely brilliant of you. Will you also call for the execution of future generations of taxpayers because of the crazy debt that our current government leadership has brought about?

Did you realize the vibe is based off of a Toyota ?

is based on the Toyota Corolla's E-platform

linkydo

And lets not forget GM pays people not to work.

Excellent management skillz

Yes, I know that the Vibe is a JOINT venture with Toyota in California at a place called NUMMI. Malibu, Grand Prix? I don't think so.
Yes, bad management skills......those ridiculous jobs banks were negotiated back in 1984 (maybe you should've read the entire article, eh?).....but you'd enjoy punishing today's workers for that. Excellent.

 

[Fox5]

I always wonder how badly run a company must be to have a product sold world wide and still be unable to make money with it.

 

[imported_cambit69]

Why is the American automotive industry failing? One word: Unions.

Although the companies are partly to blame, most of the blame should be put on those retarded union workers who dropped out of highschool to raise 5 children and cry when they can't get a $75/hour job making crap ass cars. Don't even talk about the insane pensions and crazy fringe benefits ie. job insurance where they had a factory full of workers doing absolutely nothing and getting paid full salary for it.

 

[StageLeft]

This morning we find out that GM and Chrysler are looking at merging.

Like I said, they are completely fvcked.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: ericlp
Fuck the big three, I hope they die quickly since they haven't produced any green cars and made poor judgment calls from the last 3-5 years. Not to mention questionable reliability. It's almost embarrassing for the US to even put ford or GM names on cars.

Do you live in the United States? Are you an American citizen?

Do you need to work to live?

Would your quality of life decrease significantly if the U.S. economy collapsed and you lost your job and were unable to find a comparable new job?

Be careful what you wish for.

 

[StageLeft]

Whipper I wish the big 3 didn't suck but they do. It's time to trim the fat. Maybe their engineers can help the US in better companies.

 

[Pliablemoose]

I'd rather see a GM/Ford merger.

Chrysler doesn't have shit for cars, the only brand worth saving is Jeep and Chrysler's truck division