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More good news from GM, Ford

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SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,929
141
106
Originally posted by: Ktulu
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
There is no reason for them to survive. Toyota, Honda, and Nissan make better cars AND trucks now. Their death knell has sounded, and they shouldn't have been approved for that bailout loan since they'll never be able to pay it back.
Well you see the problem there is that GM and Ford both make way better cars than they used to. Their midsized offering have finally caught up with the imports, they get way better mileage than what you people give them credit for. Despite a bunch of tools here saying that nobody wants to buy their products they're still currently outselling Toyota. Oh and BTW, no f'ing way in hell the Japanese make better trucks than the domestics, dream on. Their problem here now is turning a profit, that's it.
If you are going to say their midsized caught up with imports, then I'll say their trucks have just about caught up with them as well.
The Tundra was nominated for the North American Truck of the Year award and was Motor Trend magazine's Truck of the Year in 2000 and 2008. As of 2007, the Tundra (now in its second generation) holds 17% of the 1/2 ton full-size pickup market beating the GMC Sierra in monthly sales, but still behind the Ford F-150.
Either way, it's splitting hairs at this point. Their image has taken such a hit, that "turning a profit, that's it" will be almost impossible due to their corporate culture and the fact they put out such shoddy products so long.

 

Budmantom

Lifer
Aug 17, 2002
13,103
1
81
GM is now selling @ $4.76 (down 31% in one day) a month ago it was going for $13 and the Dow is under 8600, Ford is down to $2.08 down 21%.

This may be a great buying opportunity.
 

SoundTheSurrender

Diamond Member
Mar 13, 2005
3,126
0
0
Originally posted by: compuwiz1
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
There is no reason for them to survive. Toyota, Honda, and Nissan make better cars AND trucks now. Their death knell has sounded, and they shouldn't have been approved for that bailout loan since they'll never be able to pay it back.
Any other anti-American sentiments you'd like to share with us? Some of you guys make me sick. Let's give all our support and money to Japan, China and Korea. Yep, that's what will make America strong again. :roll:

American automakers are responsible for payroll to millions of Americans and billions in tax revenues. Everything around you is connected in some way to the American automobile industry, yet some of you are too eager to see our American companies die.
As much as I agree. I plan on never owning a American can again. Not until they prove that they have quality. Sorry but that's how it is. I don't think it's Anti-American. It's capitalism.
 

bctbct

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2005
4,868
1
0
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: compuwiz1
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
There is no reason for them to survive. Toyota, Honda, and Nissan make better cars AND trucks now. Their death knell has sounded, and they shouldn't have been approved for that bailout loan since they'll never be able to pay it back.
Any other anti-American sentiments you'd like to share with us? Some of you guys make me sick. Let's give all our support and money to Japan, China and Korea. Yep, that's what will make America strong again. :roll:

American automakers are responsible for payroll to millions of Americans and billions in tax revenues. Everything around you is connected in some way to the American automobile industry, yet some of you are too eager to see our American companies die.
I'm anti-American now? No, I'm sick of seeing overbloated companies that put out a sht product staying afloat. This isn't the 1950's anymore when they were top dogs and had no competition. Yet they are paying their employees like that is the case, as well as retirees. They just can't compete anymore, put the old horse out to rest is what I say. They've been given multiple opportunities to try again (how many times have they come back from bankruptcy?) and failed. What's the point of preserving jobs to companies who can't compete? Do we just keep giving them billions and continue to label them as the little engines who could?

Globalization killed the steel industry, and this the is next progressive step. It has nothing to do with patriotism, but not saddling the taxpayers with anymore ridiculous bailouts. Besides, we gave Japan the greenlight to surpass us when we agreed to take them under our wing after WWII. We're the reason they put out such a superior product, so you should be proud of your country in that respect.

Toyota and Honda receive all kinds of tax payer money, maybe if we cut that off the Big 3 would be more competetive.
 

Mani

Diamond Member
Aug 9, 2001
4,808
0
0
There does need to be a consolidation in the US Car market, there's no doubt. Too much competition, too little demand. If one drops though, I hope it's Chrysler since they are no longer really an American company. It will be a sad day if GM or Ford goes down.
 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
2,847
0
0
Originally posted by: compuwiz1
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
There is no reason for them to survive. Toyota, Honda, and Nissan make better cars AND trucks now. Their death knell has sounded, and they shouldn't have been approved for that bailout loan since they'll never be able to pay it back.
Any other anti-American sentiments you'd like to share with us? Some of you guys make me sick. Let's give all our support and money to Japan, China and Korea. Yep, that's what will make America strong again. :roll:

American automakers are responsible for payroll to millions of Americans and billions in tax revenues. Everything around you is connected in some way to the American automobile industry, yet some of you are too eager to see our American companies die.
No income = no tax, at least for the last few years. As I understand it they had a lot of deferred tax assets they had to write down.

Hopefully McCain can concede Michigan so we can save $25 billion.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,062
1
0
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
There is no reason for them to survive. Toyota, Honda, and Nissan make better cars AND trucks now. Their death knell has sounded, and they shouldn't have been approved for that bailout loan since they'll never be able to pay it back.
chevy and ford make better cars than either nissan or toyota.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,062
1
0
btw foreign automakers receive huge tax subsidies from the states they build in, which are mainly in the south.
 

venkman

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2007
4,950
11
81
The lack of basic knowledge of economics on that I see on this site is staggering. Seriously, do people think before they post?
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
2
0
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: compuwiz1
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
There is no reason for them to survive. Toyota, Honda, and Nissan make better cars AND trucks now. Their death knell has sounded, and they shouldn't have been approved for that bailout loan since they'll never be able to pay it back.
Any other anti-American sentiments you'd like to share with us? Some of you guys make me sick. Let's give all our support and money to Japan, China and Korea. Yep, that's what will make America strong again. :roll:

American automakers are responsible for payroll to millions of Americans and billions in tax revenues. Everything around you is connected in some way to the American automobile industry, yet some of you are too eager to see our American companies die.
I'm anti-American now? No, I'm sick of seeing overbloated companies that put out a sht product staying afloat. This isn't the 1950's anymore when they were top dogs and had no competition. Yet they are paying their employees like that is the case, as well as retirees. They just can't compete anymore, put the old horse out to rest is what I say. They've been given multiple opportunities to try again (how many times have they come back from bankruptcy?) and failed. What's the point of preserving jobs to companies who can't compete? Do we just keep giving them billions and continue to label them as the little engines who could?

Globalization killed the steel industry, and this the is next progressive step. It has nothing to do with patriotism, but not saddling the taxpayers with anymore ridiculous bailouts. Besides, we gave Japan the greenlight to surpass us when we agreed to take them under our wing after WWII. We're the reason they put out such a superior product, so you should be proud of your country in that respect.
I think that's what I was trying to say but you said it better.

The US is not made of money (well, not quite). If it's going to throw money around with cheap loans, give it to companies that have a proven track record of being profitable (and I mean this millennium) and won't blow it on crap.
GM is now selling @ $4.76 (down 31% in one day) a month ago it was going for $13 and the Dow is under 8600, Ford is down to $2.08 down 21%.

This may be a great buying opportunity.
That or the last chance to sell it before it's trading at $2.50

 

Budmantom

Lifer
Aug 17, 2002
13,103
1
81
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Budmantom
GM is now selling @ $4.76 (down 31% in one day) a month ago it was going for $13 and the Dow is under 8600, Ford is down to $2.08 down 21%.

This may be a great buying opportunity.
For what Matchbox cars?
Are you still voting for McCain?
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
Originally posted by: compuwiz1
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
There is no reason for them to survive. Toyota, Honda, and Nissan make better cars AND trucks now. Their death knell has sounded, and they shouldn't have been approved for that bailout loan since they'll never be able to pay it back.
Any other anti-American sentiments you'd like to share with us? Some of you guys make me sick. Let's give all our support and money to Japan, China and Korea. Yep, that's what will make America strong again. :roll:

American automakers are responsible for payroll to millions of Americans and billions in tax revenues. Everything around you is connected in some way to the American automobile industry, yet some of you are too eager to see our American companies die.
They are uncompetitive and need bailouts to survive.

That is called communism if you prop up a dieing company because they make overpriced junk.

Unamerican? I would call intervening in the free market unamerican.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
Originally posted by: jman19
Originally posted by: TechAZ
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
There is no reason for them to survive. Toyota, Honda, and Nissan make better cars AND trucks now. Their death knell has sounded, and they shouldn't have been approved for that bailout loan since they'll never be able to pay it back.
And Microsoft puts out the superior product. The sooner Apple dies off the better.
Lulz.
Apple is profitable.
 

jman19

Lifer
Nov 3, 2000
11,183
610
126
Originally posted by: Acanthus
Originally posted by: jman19
Originally posted by: TechAZ
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
There is no reason for them to survive. Toyota, Honda, and Nissan make better cars AND trucks now. Their death knell has sounded, and they shouldn't have been approved for that bailout loan since they'll never be able to pay it back.
And Microsoft puts out the superior product. The sooner Apple dies off the better.
Lulz.
Apple is profitable.
The lulz was at TechAZ, not Apple.
 

SigArms08

Member
Apr 16, 2008
181
0
0
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Originally posted by: AstroManLuca
Yeah WTF mate. I tend to prefer Japanese cars for their solid reliability but it's not like I wish death on American companies just because I prefer someone else's product. GM and Ford have improved a ton in recent years and they deserve to be given a chance to bounce back. They're finally getting the hint and if they almost die then maybe it'll be a wake-up call for them.

Also, they might not be in as much trouble as the American companies, but Japanese carmakers took a huge hit a couple days ago when the Japanese stock indexes fell almost 10%.
I see them and as symbolic of a problem that people need to stop denying themselves about.
What problem(s) are you referring to, Skoorb? Failures of past executive leadership that failed to take the proper action are reasons to send hundreds of thousands of people to the unemployment lines (don't forget about the supply chain and all services that would be impacted)? GM has made tremendous strides these past few years. Sure it took an incredibly long time for them to wake the heck up, but it began happening in the 90's. You know who's to blame - the greedy corporate leadership of yesterday, not the american worker. Is it their fault that the past leadership willingly gave in to excessive union demands (don't get me wrong, union shares a part of the blame for inefficiencies/waste....just like any union).

Where's this SERIOUS quality deficiency that you allude to? In the JD Powers Top 5 Compact cars in Dependability, GM has its Pontiac Vibe.
2008 initial quality, JD powers gives Pontiac's Grand Prix the top award for large cars(http://www.jdpower.com/autos/r...ding/page-#page-anchor).
2008 Initial Quality for Midsize cars went to Chevy Malibu and the Ford Fusion was right behind it http://www.jdpower.com/autos/r...y-category/midsize-car

But do go on, you seem to know SO much about the auto industry and its efforts to turn things around. Punish the employees who are working to turn this mess around, that's absolutely brilliant of you. Will you also call for the execution of future generations of taxpayers because of the crazy debt that our current government leadership has brought about?

 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,062
1
0
Originally posted by: Acanthus
Originally posted by: compuwiz1
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
There is no reason for them to survive. Toyota, Honda, and Nissan make better cars AND trucks now. Their death knell has sounded, and they shouldn't have been approved for that bailout loan since they'll never be able to pay it back.
Any other anti-American sentiments you'd like to share with us? Some of you guys make me sick. Let's give all our support and money to Japan, China and Korea. Yep, that's what will make America strong again. :roll:

American automakers are responsible for payroll to millions of Americans and billions in tax revenues. Everything around you is connected in some way to the American automobile industry, yet some of you are too eager to see our American companies die.
They are uncompetitive and need bailouts to survive.

That is called communism if you prop up a dieing company because they make overpriced junk.

Unamerican? I would call intervening in the free market unamerican.
that is NOT communism.
 

Budmantom

Lifer
Aug 17, 2002
13,103
1
81
Originally posted by: SigArms08
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Originally posted by: AstroManLuca
Yeah WTF mate. I tend to prefer Japanese cars for their solid reliability but it's not like I wish death on American companies just because I prefer someone else's product. GM and Ford have improved a ton in recent years and they deserve to be given a chance to bounce back. They're finally getting the hint and if they almost die then maybe it'll be a wake-up call for them.

Also, they might not be in as much trouble as the American companies, but Japanese carmakers took a huge hit a couple days ago when the Japanese stock indexes fell almost 10%.
I see them and as symbolic of a problem that people need to stop denying themselves about.
What problem(s) are you referring to, Skoorb? Failures of past executive leadership that failed to take the proper action are reasons to send hundreds of thousands of people to the unemployment lines (don't forget about the supply chain and all services that would be impacted)? GM has made tremendous strides these past few years. Sure it took an incredibly long time for them to wake the heck up, but it began happening in the 90's. You know who's to blame - the greedy corporate leadership of yesterday, not the american worker. Is it their fault that the past leadership willingly gave in to excessive union demands (don't get me wrong, union shares a part of the blame for inefficiencies/waste....just like any union).

Where's this SERIOUS quality deficiency that you allude to? In the JD Powers Top 5 Compact cars in Dependability, GM has its Pontiac Vibe.
2008 initial quality, JD powers gives Pontiac's Grand Prix the top award for large cars(http://www.jdpower.com/autos/r...ding/page-#page-anchor).
2008 Initial Quality for Midsize cars went to Chevy Malibu and the Ford Fusion was right behind it http://www.jdpower.com/autos/r...y-category/midsize-car

But do go on, you seem to know SO much about the auto industry and its efforts to turn things around. Punish the employees who are working to turn this mess around, that's absolutely brilliant of you. Will you also call for the execution of future generations of taxpayers because of the crazy debt that our current government leadership has brought about?
He means death to the American auto industry in a patriotic manner.
 

retrospooty

Platinum Member
Apr 3, 2002
2,031
74
86
Originally posted by: zephyrprime
Originally posted by: Ktulu
Originally posted by: Skoorb
The sooner they die, the sooner we can stop lying to ourselves
I'm curious what are "we" lying to our selves about?
we = Americans.

How often do you hear people talking about how we are about to lose our position as one of the leading car manufacturing nations in the world? That's whats about to happen. GM and F have made some bad decisions but I blame the prior unions and management for these problems. Those guys negotiated unaffordable "fringe" benefits for the unions that they knew would be a big burden on the companies in the future but they didn't care because they knew that they would be retired by the time the check came due. Also, focusing on big vehicles so much was a mistake.
Sure, unions cost alot, but the reason they are hurting is 30+ years of piss poor quality and mismanagement. Anyone that doesnt see that simply isnt paying attention. Honda, toyota and the others wouldnt be anywhere if the US could make a decent car that doesnt fall apart in 5 years.
 

SoundTheSurrender

Diamond Member
Mar 13, 2005
3,126
0
0
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
There is no reason for them to survive. Toyota, Honda, and Nissan make better cars AND trucks now. Their death knell has sounded, and they shouldn't have been approved for that bailout loan since they'll never be able to pay it back.
chevy and ford make better cars than either nissan or toyota.
haha. Ok dude.
 

Ktulu

Diamond Member
Dec 16, 2000
4,354
0
0
Originally posted by: retrospooty
Originally posted by: zephyrprime
Originally posted by: Ktulu
Originally posted by: Skoorb
The sooner they die, the sooner we can stop lying to ourselves
I'm curious what are "we" lying to our selves about?
we = Americans.

How often do you hear people talking about how we are about to lose our position as one of the leading car manufacturing nations in the world? That's whats about to happen. GM and F have made some bad decisions but I blame the prior unions and management for these problems. Those guys negotiated unaffordable "fringe" benefits for the unions that they knew would be a big burden on the companies in the future but they didn't care because they knew that they would be retired by the time the check came due. Also, focusing on big vehicles so much was a mistake.
Sure, unions cost alot, but the reason they are hurting is 30+ years of piss poor quality and mismanagement. Anyone that doesnt see that simply isnt paying attention. Honda, toyota and the others wouldnt be anywhere if the US could make a decent car that doesnt fall apart in 5 years.
Nobody here is saying this isn't true but anyone who hasn't notice the huge changes GM/Ford have made in terms of quality, mileage, reliability and value simply isn't paying attention either. I know that not all there offerings are up to par yet but they're doing there best to get there. It's more a matter of can they turn a profit and will this economic situation kill them before they can.
 

brencat

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2007
2,170
3
76
Originally posted by: Ktulu
but anyone who hasn't notice the huge changes GM/Ford have made in terms of quality, mileage, reliability and value simply isn't paying attention either.
All that's great. Now how about style?? They're still using the same sh*t AC Delco like interiors with some extra curves on the dashboard. Big deal.

They should copy the interior of the Acura TSX or Honda Accord, and they'll be profitable again tomorrow.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
What might be the difference between an American made Ford and an American made Toyota? I suppose the bits and pieces that go in to them that are imported. I figure the end result we should look to is how many jobs are lost by the importation of the bits vs the ones made in US and used in Ford's products... IF that is not a big deal then the fact that Ford could fold is not an issue... Perhaps Toyota might build a plant in Detroit and make ToyFords.

Edit: The implied is that who owns the stock is not an issue it is who earns a living from that entity.. Ford, Toyota or whomever...
 

Ktulu

Diamond Member
Dec 16, 2000
4,354
0
0
Originally posted by: brencat
Originally posted by: Ktulu
but anyone who hasn't notice the huge changes GM/Ford have made in terms of quality, mileage, reliability and value simply isn't paying attention either.
All that's great. Now how about style?? They're still using the same sh*t AC Delco like interiors with some extra curves on the dashboard. Big deal.

They should copy the interior of the Acura TSX or Honda Accord, and they'll be profitable again tomorrow.
First of all, styling is subjecting. I far prefer the CTS interior to the TSX and the Malibu exterior and interior layout to the Accords and IMO Toyota has gone to the toilet as far as styling is concerned. If you don't like domestics you nit pick and always find some reason to dump on them. Secondly, as far as profitability goes it's not about sales. When the hell are you guys going to realize that GM is currently outselling everybody (including Toyota). So saying stupid crap like "nobody wants to buy there products" just sounds retarded when you actually look at their numbers.
 

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