Mondragon Cooperative Corporation: A superior economic system

[bamacre]

Pardon my ignorance of the topic at hand, a couple of questions. One, what prevents a Mondragon business model from occurring under a capitalist system? Two, what kind of monetary standard is suggested for a society designed around a Mondragon system?

 

[PokerGuy]

Pardon my ignorance of the topic at hand, a couple of questions. One, what prevents a Mondragon business model from occurring under a capitalist system? Two, what kind of monetary standard is suggested for a society designed around a Mondragon system?

Nothing prevents it from happening in a capitalist system, but it's just not a very efficient or effective way of running a company so it's not going to happen.

 

[Phokus]

Pardon my ignorance of the topic at hand, a couple of questions. One, what prevents a Mondragon business model from occurring under a capitalist system? Two, what kind of monetary standard is suggested for a society designed around a Mondragon system?

Greed. If you think about it, there are many examples of tech firms starting off like Mondragon: A bunch of software engineers who startup a company in their garage each having a share and a say in the company. Once they become successful, they take the company public and get a huge windfall. Anyone who joins the company after that is under the boot of the executive class of the company. Mondragon was created under conditions of poverty due to Spain not having recovered from their civil war. Also, Spain had a tradition of Anarchism and worker owned collectives that was kind of unique from other countries.

Nothing prevents it from happening in a capitalist system, but it's just not a very efficient or effective way of running a company so it's not going to happen.

That's not really true, workers are happier and work harder under such a system. If by 'efficient and effective', you mean the threat or actual action of mass layoffs and outsourcing to 3rd world countries is harder to accomplish, that is true. Look at publicly traded companies. There is an enormous pressure by Wall Street to cut costs and do layoffs in the short term because compensation is tied to the short term, but there have been studies that have shown that aggressive layoffs backfires in the long term (unless your industry is on the decline). But it makes rational sense for the CEO to do so because of how his pay is structured and also because humans hyperdiscount short term rewards.

 

[bamacre]

Greed.

Greed? What is greed exactly? How can you prevent greed under a Mondragon system?

If you think about it, there are many examples of tech firms starting off like Mondragon: A bunch of software engineers who startup a company in their garage each having a share and a say in the company. Once they become successful, they take the company public and get a huge windfall.

Am I correct that you just answered my question? That you cannot prevent greed under a Mondragon system? It seems to me that the decision to go public is voluntary. Could you not put in legal safeguards that prevent this from happening? I would think so. Why give these decision-making authorities to management? Please do not take my questions as an attack, these are serious questions. Also, I'm still curious as to the monetary standard imagined under this system.

 

[Phokus]

Greed? What is greed exactly? How can you prevent greed under a Mondragon system?



Am I correct that you just answered my question? That you cannot prevent greed under a Mondragon system? It seems to me that the decision to go public is voluntary. Could you not put in legal safeguards that prevent this from happening? I would think so. Why give these decision-making authorities to management? Please do not take my questions as an attack, these are serious questions. Also, I'm still curious as to the monetary standard imagined under this system.

Like i said, it was a special case. I don't think taking the company public would work well because you have so many workers owning the company that the windfall would have to be spread out to almost 100,000 people and it would really be a windfall anymore.

Edit: Not to mention the character and their local culture of the people. Again, this is a unique thing to Spain.

Edit: Also, if you have legal safeguards against taking companies public, that kinda goes against capitalism, doesn't it?

 

[Steeplerot]

If syndicates are governments then you aren't talking about anarchism, sorry. Can't have it both ways.

Except for that whole history thing, A-S has and still works across the world. Unlike cappy libertarians who have NEVER got their shit together. Ever.

This should tell you something about how immature right wing libertarianism ideology is in reality.

 

[Steeplerot]

Greed? What is greed exactly? How can you prevent greed under a Mondragon system?

Simple, you get greedy you are directly taking from your fellow workers. That would be theft, and grounds for termination. Breach of contract.

 

[Steeplerot]

Pardon my ignorance of the topic at hand, a couple of questions. One, what prevents a Mondragon business model from occurring under a capitalist system? Two, what kind of monetary standard is suggested for a society designed around a Mondragon system?

If you are really interested in Libertarianism I suggest George Orwell's personal account, he explains how they created a military, how the hierarchy of rank is handled, how goods and overproduction is handled down to social issues like prostitution in a non-exploitative system.

Welcome to post-capitalism.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homage_to_Catalonia

Most folks do not realize Orwell's most famous book Animal Farm is a criticism of Stalinism (Russian "Communism") AND Capitalism after experiencing what socialist-libertarians were up to in Spain.

 

[bamacre]

Edit: Also, if you have legal safeguards against taking companies public, that kinda goes against capitalism, doesn't it?

If they were implemented via government, yes. But what I meant was, in the creation of such a company, couldn't there be a legal contractual agreement among the creators which would prevent the company from ever going public?

 

[bamacre]

Simple, you get greedy you are directly taking from your fellow workers. That would be theft, and grounds for termination. Breach of contract.

What all is in this contract? Or should be, in your opinion.

 

[Steeplerot]

National defense is going to be provided by a local community? What a joke.

Funny how you folks call yourselves Libertarians but have no idea about the greatest generals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durruti_Column

Another great Libertarian general. Mahkno of the Black Flag Libertarian Army of Free Ukraine who fought Trotsky and Lenin and the Red Army AND Germany/Austria right after WW1.

 

[Phokus]

If they were implemented via government, yes. But what I meant was, in the creation of such a company, couldn't there be a legal contractual agreement among the creators which would prevent the company from ever going public?

That's a silly question, if wall street is offering you 10's of millions, 100's of millions of dollars in the near term, why wouldn't you take that? Humans hyperdiscount short term rewards.

 

[bamacre]

That's a silly question, if wall street is offering you 10's of millions, 100's of millions of dollars in the near term, why wouldn't you take that? Humans hyperdiscount short term rewards.

I think you misread my post. I wasn't asking why individuals would want to take such a company public, I was asking if there are ways to prevent this from happening, then offered one potential idea.

 

[Steeplerot]

Meeting Spain's last anarchist


The last fighting libertarian.

Stabbed in the back by stalinism in the mid 1930s, gassed by the christians and nazis in the 40s, shuffled through concentration camps in WW2 abandoned to die by capitalists one comrade still lives from the Durruti Column to this day.

 

[Phokus]

I think you misread my post. I wasn't asking why individuals would want to take such a company public, I was asking if there are ways to prevent this from happening, then offered one potential idea.

That's still a silly question because you can have that idea, but nobody would do it, voluntarily.

Edit: Well, very FEW would.

 

[Steeplerot]

Quite a few examples of larger companies nowadays worldwide here.

A bit more general but this has answers to the simple economic questions in day to day practice.

The Employee Ownership 100: America's Largest Majority Employee-Owned Companies (of varying degrees of A-S of course)

 

[bamacre]

That's still a silly question because you can have that idea, but nobody would do it, voluntarily.

Edit: Well, very FEW would.

Why would very few do it? Greed?

The basis of any economic system must deal with greed. Greed is a given, a human emotion. If an economic system cannot manage (limit) greed, it will fail.

 

[Steeplerot]

Why would very few do it? Greed?

The basis of any economic system must deal with greed. Greed is a given, a human emotion. If an economic system cannot manage (limit) greed, it will fail.

Greed is mainly a byproduct of needs not being fulfilled. Humans are not greedy by nature when needs are met, although society does have a few greedy folks by nature, we call them sociopaths. (wealth addicted sociopaths are celebrated in society sadly, kinda like sex addicts are joked about in a ribbing sort-of way)

Both are destructive when out of control. One addict screws a few people, the other screws whole business and countries economies.

 

[Phokus]

Why would very few do it? Greed?

The basis of any economic system must deal with greed. Greed is a given, a human emotion. If an economic system cannot manage (limit) greed, it will fail.

That's what we've been witnessing for the past 30 years or so. It's just going slowly. Also, Greed (or as libertarians like sugar coat it, 'rational self interest') is the basis of capitalism.

 

[bamacre]

Greed is mainly a byproduct of needs not being fulfilled. Humans are not greedy by nature when needs are met, although society does have a few greedy folks by nature, we call them sociopaths.

I disagree with this definition of greed. Greed has little to do with needs, and more to do with desires beyond needs.

 

[Steeplerot]

I disagree with this definition of greed. Greed has little to do with needs, and more to do with desires beyond needs.

Problem is people are a lot less greedy when they have enough in reality, actually humans are shown to be the opposite of greedy. Some folks have neurosis where they never have enough, as I said, those folks are sociopaths, not the norm.

This is once again projection by conservative ideology which points out a few radical examples of damaged people doing bad stuff and tries to irresponsibly throw the baby out with the bathwater.

This is why right wing libertarianism is so flawed it has never been tried, the basis of greed is flawed.

A lot of this comes from Ayn Rand who was a very well known sociopath. Which is why the foundation of right wing libertarianism has clay feet and biased to the view that greed is the norm and makes the assumption that humans are damaged sociopaths on a self-destructive wealth-accumulation trip.

Ayn Rand was a seriously messed up person. She should be the last person we get cues from on what is "normal" for the human condition.

 

[bamacre]

That's what we've been witnessing for the past 30 years or so. It's just going slowly. Also, Greed (or as libertarians like sugar coat it, 'rational self interest') is the basis of capitalism.

I do not believe that greed is the basis of capitalism. Instead two ideas, (1) greed is a given, and (2) individual greed can only be managed via individual risk, make up the basis of capitalism.

 

[bamacre]

Problem is people are a lot less greedy when they have enough in reality, actually humans are shown to be the opposite of greedy. Some folks have neurosis where they never have enough, as I said, those folks are sociopaths, not the norm.

Just because those folks are of the minority does not mean they can be ignored. Let me note, you're not implying they should be ignored, but how should those people be handled?

 

[Phokus]

I do not believe that greed is the basis of capitalism. Instead two ideas, (1) greed is a given, and (2) individual greed can only be managed via individual risk, make up the basis of capitalism.

Individual risk is nullified when it comes to public companies. Also, people are often fairly irrational or they make rational decisions at someone else's expense.

 

[Steeplerot]

Just because those folks are of the minority does not mean they can be ignored. Let me note, you're not implying they should be ignored, but how should those people be handled?

They should not be let to take advantage of others. Some folks REALLY like to shoplift for example. But they learn to control their urges in a normal society.

It is not the actual wealth accumulation that these folks crave, its the thrill of risk. Plenty of other ways to channel OCD persons energys. I am not even saying this is a BAD thing. But should be channeled in a non-self-destructive nature.

This is the simple common sense aspect of us all having a level playing field to work hard for a good life, you cannot have that if you have some neurotic fucker buying the whole field because his girlfriend pissed him off so he can.