Mondragon Cooperative Corporation: A superior economic system

[matt0611]

Well, for one, admitting that there is a problem with free trade policies. Two, stop pretending that getting rid taxes for the wealthy is somehow going to help stop the bleeding of jobs. This is literally the GOP prescription for EVERYTHING, even though it has nothing to do with anything. In essence, stop listening to idiot conservatives. Yes, i'm saying you and your ilk are the cause of all our problems.

Also did you read the OP? What do you think of an economic system in which everyone had ownership of the enterprise, rather than just a select few? Oh wait, you didn't and probably thought, 'hurf durf, communism'.

Phokus, if most corporations adopted that system of ownership, wouldn't there still be "free trade"?

If not, how would it deal with the problems of free trade with china?

 

[Genx87]

According to the recent election, the solution seems to be to bury your head in the sand and pretend it's 1776.

Is that what you got out of the last election? Which party is going to bring us back to 1776?

 

[Phokus]

That isnt a solution. Opposing everything one side says is like putting your head in the sand.

Except your side is the cause of everything that's wrong in this country.

If workers want to organize that way who am I to stop them? Are you suggesting govt force people to work like this?

The problem is, when those types of business entities become successful, they almost inevitably go public. I pointed this out several times. I dunno, maybe outlaw wall street.

 

[Steeplerot]

Phokus, if most corporations adopted that system of ownership, wouldn't there still be "free trade"?

If not, how would it deal with the problems of free trade with china?

Do not buy products from places with substandard labor laws and safety. (cheap garbage is dangerous anyhow)

China is supplying exactly what the US wants and is willing to pay for, -slave labor shit. We are the ones making this deal, buying the product and encouraging the flawed system.

The trade between us and China is anything but free market.

"Capitalists will hang themselves from the very rope we will sell them."

 

[Phokus]

Phokus, if most corporations adopted that system of ownership, wouldn't there still be "free trade"?

If not, how would it deal with the problems of free trade with china?

It seems to me, the way that Mondragon works, is that 1) Excess value is shared between everyone, rather than being sucked up by management. Management makes less while workers make more than market wages thus you have some flexibility. 2) Mondragon vigorously attempts to retrain displaced workers rather than throwing them to the curb like your typical corporation would.

At Mondragon, a job is sacred and protecting a worker-owner from losing it is vigorously pursued. Mondragon promotes economic justice and solidarity through the principle of Intercooperation, which includes a no-layoff policy. As a consequence, no worker-owner has ever been fired in Mondragon. Worker-owners are protected from market fluctuations by arranging transfers to other cooperatives if they are displaced due to market-related causes. Mondragon has a mechanism to track, re-train and relocate these displaced worker-owners, who maintain their pay level if they take a new job that pays lower wages. Also, temporarily displaced workers maintain 80% of their last wage until they are relocated.

In addition, workers who need to be relocated due to personal or performance-related reasons are able to do so, after a process of evaluation. That is, at Mondragon it is assumed that an able and willing worker may be ineffective if assigned to a type of work unsuitable for his or her skills, but that there is work somewhere in the organization where this worker can perform adequately. In brief, at Mondragon, "work is 'for man' and not man 'for work'" [Laborem Exercens, 6].

In general, wages at Mondragon, as compared to similar jobs in local industries, are 30% or less at the management levels and equivalent at the middle management, technical and professional levels. As a result, Mondragon worker-owners at the lower wage levels earn an average of 13% higher wages than workers in similar businesses.

Maintaining Stable Income Levels

The no lay-off policy, the willingness to retrain and absorb displaced workers among cooperatives, and the limited pay ratios between top executives and factory/field workers mentioned earlier foster not only economic justice but also solidarity within Mondragon. A related policy is the maintenance of stable income levels. This is included under the principle of Intercooperation as "the pooling of profits" among five to seven cooperatives which are grouped in "clusters" [18:169]. This policy protects worker-owners from excessive profit sharing income variations, which are common due to temporary market fluctuations. In the rare event that a cooperative has several consecutive years of low profits, however, an evaluation is made to assess its continued viability.

 

[Steeplerot]

At Mondragon, a job is sacred and protecting a worker-owner from losing it is vigorously pursued. Mondragon promotes economic justice and solidarity through the principle of Intercooperation, which includes a no-layoff policy. As a consequence, no worker-owner has ever been fired in Mondragon. Worker-owners are protected from market fluctuations by arranging transfers to other cooperatives if they are displaced due to market-related causes. Mondragon has a mechanism to track, re-train and relocate these displaced worker-owners, who maintain their pay level if they take a new job that pays lower wages. Also, temporarily displaced workers maintain 80% of their last wage until they are relocated.

Once again showing that unemployment is a artificial construct of capitalism and unnecessary.

 

[matt0611]

Do not buy products from places with substandard labor laws and safety. (cheap garbage is dangerous anyhow)

China is supplying exactly what the US wants and is willing to pay for, -slave labor shit. We are the ones making this deal, buying the product and encouraging the flawed system.

The trade between us and China is anything but free market.

"Capitalists will hang themselves from the very rope we will sell them."

OK, so are you saying people should voluntarily do this or government embargoes / tariffs?

 

[Genx87]

Except your side is the cause of everything that's wrong in this country.

You have to be a partisan tard to believe one side is solely responsible. Or that govt or parties can be blamed completely for how an economy bubbles and bursts.

The problem is, when those types of business entities become successful, they almost inevitably go public. I dunno, maybe outlaw wall street.

So you want to outlaw Wall Street? How quickly do you want to destroy this country? It sounds to me like even your utopia falls victim to a basic human desire to advance.

 

[Steeplerot]

Phokus, if most corporations adopted that system of ownership, wouldn't there still be "free trade"?

If not, how would it deal with the problems of free trade with china?

Do not buy products from places with substandard labor laws and safety. (cheap garbage is dangerous anyhow)

China is supplying what US wants, cheap slave labor cheap shit. We are the ones making this deal.

I have to admit I as a small business owner I am a bit biased since we have used a similar model. Regardless, I have gone from 2 employees to 6, and business has increased by 100% in the year and a half during this bad recession. Not bad. We are proudly the best place in town to work for also, no distrust between employees and no feeling of division like someone is lording over you. I can trust my workers as my best-interests are theirs also. Makes perfect sense in reality. :thumbsup:

 

[Phokus]

You have to be a partisan tard to believe one side is solely responsible. Or that govt or parties can be blamed completely for how an economy bubbles and bursts.

Literally all our shitty economic outcomes can be linked to your shitty economic ideals.

So you want to outlaw Wall Street? How quickly do you want to destroy this country? It sounds to me like even your utopia falls victim to a basic human desire to advance.

Now this is the most idiotic thing you've written, Wall Street is ACTIVELY destroying our country and is the cause of many of our problems.

 

[Steeplerot]

Typical libertopian drivel, if their idea of a perfectly fundamentalist free market is not in effect then screw the "good" and rules of the road to protect Capitalism -anything but their god of greed is tyranny lol -its their way or the highway. Those folks are not even worth arguing with until they mature their political views.

 

[Genx87]

Literally all our shitty economic outcomes can be linked to your shitty economic ideals.

That is why you are a partisan tard. Because you believe that crap.

Now this is the most idiotic thing you've written, Wall Street is ACTIVELY destroying our country and is the cause of many of our problems.

What do you think is a worse alternative? Wall Street bubbles or no wall street at all? The idea of banning Wall Street because govt fucked up is pure stupidity in the purest form.

 

[Steeplerot]

Wall street are the real welfare queens. They produce nothing and leech needed capital to live lives like a protected class of the priests of capitalism. Someone really needs to toss some holy water on them and their followers.

 

[Phokus]

That is why you are a partisan tard. Because you believe that crap.

We can go on and on, but the very fact is that 1) You're a partisan idiot yourself and 2) Your economic theory is a complete failure. You keep on talking about burying your head in the sand, but at the same time, you keep on ignoring empirical evidence that contradicts your absolutely childlike belief that 'we'll pull through this eventually!'. I guess you ignoring wage stagnation/structural unemployment is the very definition of 'ignorance is bliss'.

What do you think is a worse alternative? Wall Street bubbles or no wall street at all? The idea of banning Wall Street because govt fucked up is pure stupidity in the purest form.

Hahahaha. Wall Street's only function is to enrich itself and move capital to the very top (while take a cut for itself). What a great system for America.

 

[Genx87]

We can go on and on, but the very fact is that 1) You're a partisan idiot yourself and 2) Your economic theory is a complete failure. You keep on talking about burying your head in the sand, but at the same time, you keep on ignoring empirical evidence that contradicts your absolutely childlike belief that 'we'll pull through this eventually!'. I guess you ignoring wage stagnation/structural unemployment is the very definition of 'ignorance is bliss'.

I bet idiots like you said the same thing in the 30s and 70s. Like I said earlier. Kneejerks like you will ruin us far faster than what is in place. No more evidence for this needs to be shown than you talking about banning financial markets lmao.

Hahahaha. Wall Street's only function is to enrich itself and move capital to the very top (while take a cut for itself). What a great system for America.

/facepalm

 

[Phokus]

I bet idiots like you said the same thing in the 30s and 70s. Like I said earlier. Kneejerks like you will ruin us far faster than what is in place. No more evidence for this needs to be shown than you talking about banning financial markets lmao.

It's funny that you mention the 70's and completely ignore all the empirical evidence that has shown that we're WORSE off than that time period. Stephen Colbert really nailed it when he said that reality had a well known liberal bias.

/facepalm

I think you've done that to yourself too hard/too often. Maybe that's why you have that problem.

 

[matt0611]

Typical libertopian drivel, if their idea of a perfectly fundamentalist free market is not in effect then screw the "good" and rules of the road to protect Capitalism -anything but their god of greed is tyranny lol -its their way or the highway. Those folks are not even worth arguing with until they mature their political views.

Why do you hate libertarians? Libertarian != capitalist

Libertarian only means freedom and liberty of the individual (which it sounds like you support?).

I am a libertarian but I think I think people should be able to organize into whatever economic system that they desire. If people would like to form companies like this then I think they should be free to try it out. As long as its all voluntary I'm all for it.

 

[Genx87]

It's funny that you mention the 70's and completely ignore all the empirical evidence that has shown that we're WORSE off than that time period. Stephen Colbert really nailed it when he said that reality had a well known liberal bias.

In what metric? I rather enjoy having a Microwave, 65" color LCD's, internet, cheap food, cable TV, cell phones. Oh you mean middle class wages have stagnated? I dont know what to tell you. Are you expecting the largest slice of the economic pie to out pace inflation forever?

 

[Brigandier]

Why do you hate libertarians? Libertarian != capitalist

Libertarian only means freedom and liberty of the individual (which it sounds like you support?).

I am a libertarian but I think I think people should be able to organize into whatever economic system that they desire. If people would like to form companies like this then I think they should be free to try it out. As long as its all voluntary I'm all for it.

That is how capitalism should work, if the cooperatives can provide competitive services with different structures, nothing should stop them from doing so. As long as the natural rights of all involved are not being impeded, it should be allowed to happen. Cooperatives are already working in some business models, such as agriculture but I don't think they'd be good for a field where rapid innovation is needed, but if there was a way to make it work, it could work.

 

[JockoJohnson]

What am I missing in this thread? Why are people so opposed to this? It seems to be a good idea. Someone asked earlier why companies won't adopt this---well, because the CEOs, Presidents, VPs and high-end stockholders won't like it. Instead of their bloated 500:1 earning ratio, they would get paid something more realistic. Managers would be held accountable instead of just being able to fire/layoff the peons. And for those that might ask what is "realistic", I would say 5:1 or 6:1. "But oh noes, the best and brightest CEOs will not be attracted to that company!!"

That's why this will never occur in an existing company in the US. A company would need to be started this way. The idea sounds great---to be honest, who the F*$k cares if it is making $14 billion and could be making $140 billion? All of the workers are treated fairly, they are making a profit and management can be held accountable. Sounds like a good company to me.

I admit, I skimmed through some of the posts but are they saying that all workers get the same pay no matter how they perform? If so, I can see an argument for it. But if performance is acknowledged and the salary is adjusted accordingly, why oppose it?

 

[Phokus]

In what metric? I rather enjoy having a Microwave, 65" color LCD's, internet, cheap food, cable TV, cell phones. Oh you mean middle class wages have stagnated? I dont know what to tell you. Are you expecting the largest slice of the economic pie to out pace inflation forever?

That's nice and all but doesn't mean shit. Not ONLY have middle class wages stagnated, the middle class JOBS are disappearing. Quick, tell me how much of that stuff you can buy with an income of $0.

 

[Phokus]

Why do you hate libertarians? Libertarian != capitalist

Libertarian only means freedom and liberty of the individual (which it sounds like you support?).

I am a libertarian but I think I think people should be able to organize into whatever economic system that they desire. If people would like to form companies like this then I think they should be free to try it out. As long as its all voluntary I'm all for it.

That's funny, all libertarians (of the libertarian party variety) support capitalism. At the same time, they support, at the very least, a miniarchist government to support their capitalist system.

If you're talking about Anarcho-Capitalism, that's a different thing (and completely unworkable, you need a minimal level of government for capitalism to work).

 

[matt0611]

That's nice and all but doesn't mean shit. Not ONLY have middle class wages stagnated, the middle class JOBS are disappearing. Quick, tell me how much of that stuff you can buy with an income of $0.

Just curious, have you looked at real compensation? (income + benefits)
because all data I have found points to them increasing.

That's funny, all libertarians (of the libertarian party variety) support capitalism. At the same time, they support, at the very least, a miniarchist government to support their capitalist system.

If you're talking about Anarcho-Capitalism, that's a different thing (and completely unworkable, you need a minimal level of government for capitalism to work).

Well I consider myself a libertarian (but with a small l, not party affiliated). I think many libertarians are libertarian-capitalists, some are not though.

I personally support a miniarchist-esque government, I'm open to alternative economic systems though as long as they can fit in with individual freedom.

I think what we have now is some kind of twisted corporatist-capitalist system that I am vehemently opposed to.

 

[Genx87]

That's nice and all but doesn't mean shit. Not ONLY have middle class wages stagnated, the middle class JOBS are disappearing. Quick, tell me how much of that stuff you can buy with an income of $0.

What part of worst recssion in decades arent you understanding?

 

[Dissipate]

In an anarcho-syndicalist society, those services would be provided by local communities. This was previously answered. Why would you need a centralized government for any of those functions?

National defense is going to be provided by a local community? What a joke.