Mondragon Cooperative Corporation: A superior economic system

[Phokus]

Just curious, have you looked at real compensation? (income + benefits)
because all data I have found points to them increasing.

That really doesn't say anything. Is that average compensation? You want MEDIAN compensation. Considering the wealth of the top 1% has skyrocketed so much, it's possible that their increased wealth has increased the average (but at the same time, median income has remained stagnant).

All the studies have shown that median wages have stagnated.

 

[Phokus]

National defense is going to be provided by a local community? What a joke.

Aren't you an an-cap? That's basically the same thing they advocate.

 

[Dissipate]

What does this have to do with the economic system in the thread? Are you implying that Syndicalist governments are lawless? What a misinformed view. Anarchism in a term does not = vacuum of power. In A-S it denotes lack of "bosses" in its system.

George Orwell wrote all about fighting and living in Syndicalist Catalonia.

If syndicates are governments then you aren't talking about anarchism, sorry. Can't have it both ways.

 

[GTaudiophile]

I personally would prefer some sort of self-initiated variant of the German concept called "Mitbestimmung" (co-determination).

My variant would include the following:

1) Elimination of all unions within the company.
2) Instead, an elected "team" of 2-5 employee representatives (non-executives, elected by non-executives) would sit as members of the company's board of directors with voting/veto rights on such topics as manufacturing relocation, executive pay/pay raises, employee pay/pay raises, bonuses, vacation time, benefits, etc.
3) Executive pay would be based on some sort of chosen multiplier of average, non-executive pay. For example, if non-executives made between $30K-$130K per year with the average being $75K, then the tiers of executive pay, CEO, VP, CFO, etc., would be based upon 4.0, 3.0, 2.5, etc. multipliers established by the Board of Directors. Meaning, the employee reps on the board would have a say in this multiplier. In the example above, the CEO would make $300K; the VP $225K; the CFO around $190K, etc. Ideally, the multipliers would be more or less fixed once established. If an executive wants to raise his/her pay, then the average non-executive pay would have to increase, not the multiplier.
4) Again, the above would not be government-mandated but instead instated on a company-by-company basis by executives and non-executives alike.
5) Bonuses for executives and non-executives would be awarded on a year-by-year basis and would correlate directly with earnings gains versus the previous year. The system for awarding such bonuses would also be based on a similar average x multiplier system as described above.
6) Finally, each and every employee would receive six weeks of vacation per year. The company would close shop completely for two weeks in July or August and two weeks in December. The remaining two weeks of vacation would be taken at the discretion of each employee. Aside from these six weeks, there would be no official cap in terms of the "40 hour work week." If your boss needs you to work 80 hours per week for several weeks to get a project through, then that is what is expected of you. No overtime pay would be awarded.
7) Ideally, the elimination of the minimum wage (but the government would have to do this).

Edit: Added #7 above.

 

[Steeplerot]

I wonder about this from time to time since on the surface it looks like we have more when you go around US cities then when I was a kid in the 70s, back then when you were poor you did without, now people just borrow since the irresponsible banks have made a whole industry in making it easy for the public to rig our own economy like vegas for their short term gain.

It is a front, the capitalists have already sucked up most of the publics money, now they are going for retirements, unions, and what deregulation they can get enacted so they can handily clean up what scraps are left that people fought them for ages ago, irresponsible capitalism = cannibalism.

 

[Dissipate]

Aren't you an an-cap? That's basically the same thing they advocate.

I'm a free market anarchist. Regardless of what I advocate, I see you have been able to completely side step certain issues, and the people in this thread don't realize who they are arguing with.

As soon as I start talking about free market anarchism all I hear is howls of: national defense! roads! police! schools! food quality! etc.

Here it looks like you managed to sidestep all of the above and debate an economic system. What fucking horse shit.

 

[matt0611]

That really doesn't say anything. Is that average compensation? You want MEDIAN compensation. Considering the wealth of the top 1% has skyrocketed so much, it's possible that their increased wealth has increased the average (but at the same time, median income has remained stagnant).

All the studies have shown that median wages have stagnated.

Ok, well here is one I've found that is just the manufacturing sector.
(Its average)

I haven't been able to find any data showing real compensation getting lower, but I'll keep looking.

 

[Phokus]

I personally would prefer some sort of self-initiated variant of the German concept called "Mitbestimmung" (co-determination).

My variant would include the following:

1) Elimination of all unions within the company.
2) Instead, an elected "team" of 2-5 employee representatives (non-executives, elected by non-executives) would sit as members of the company's board of directors with voting/veto rights on such topics as manufacturing relocation, executive pay/pay raises, employee pay/pay raises, bonuses, vacation time, benefits, etc.
3) Executive pay would be based on some sort of chosen multiplier of average, non-executive pay. For example, if non-executives made between $30K-$130K per year with the average being $75K, then the tiers of executive pay, CEO, VP, CFO, etc., would be based upon 4.0, 3.0, 2.5, etc. multipliers established by the Board of Directors. Meaning, the employee reps on the board would have a say in this multiplier. In the example above, the CEO would make $300K; the VP $225K; the CFO around $190K, etc. Ideally, the multipliers would be more or less fixed once established. If an executive wants to raise his/her pay, then the average non-executive pay would have to increase, not the multiplier.
4) Again, the above would not be government-mandated but instead instated on a company-by-company basis by executives and non-executives alike.
5) Bonuses for executives and non-executives would be awarded on a year-by-year basis and would correlate directly with earnings gains versus the previous year. The system for awarding such bonuses would also be based on a similar average x multiplier system as described above.
6) Finally, each and every employee would receive six weeks of vacation per year. The company would close shop completely for two weeks in July or August and two weeks in December. The remaining two weeks of vacation would be taken at the discretion of each employee. Aside from these six weeks, there would be no official cap in terms of the "40 hour work week." If your boss needs you to work 80 hours per week for several weeks to get a project through, then that is what is expected of you. No overtime pay would be awarded.
7) Elimination of the minimum wage.

Edit: Added #7 above.

"1) Elimination of all unions within the company."

I was under the impression that Germany had a lot of union members, it's just that the unions and management don't fight with each other all that much, compared to other countries.

"2) Instead, an elected "team" of 2-5 employee representatives (non-executives, elected by non-executives) would sit as members of the company's board of directors with voting/veto rights on such topics as manufacturing relocation, executive pay/pay raises, employee pay/pay raises, bonuses, vacation time, benefits, etc."

This would never work without some sort of government interference. Interlocking directorates are to entrenched in our system.

"
3) Executive pay would be based on some sort of chosen multiplier of average, non-executive pay. For example, if non-executives made between $30K-$130K per year with the average being $75K, then the tiers of executive pay, CEO, VP, CFO, etc., would be based upon 4.0, 3.0, 2.5, etc. multipliers established by the Board of Directors. Meaning, the employee reps on the board would have a say in this multiplier. In the example above, the CEO would make $300K; the VP $225K; the CFO around $190K, etc. Ideally, the multipliers would be more or less fixed once established. If an executive wants to raise his/her pay, then the average non-executive pay would have to increase, not the multiplier."

Again, this will never happen without government interference. At the very least a required non-binding vote by the stockholders, but even that probably isn't even enough.



"4) Again, the above would not be government-mandated but instead instated on a company-by-company basis by executives and non-executives alike.""

Yes, i'm sure CEO's and the interlocking directorates that serve them are just jumping at the gun to slash their pay.

"
5) Bonuses for executives and non-executives would be awarded on a year-by-year basis and would correlate directly with earnings gains versus the previous year. The system for awarding such bonuses would also be based on a similar average x multiplier system as described above."

Not good enough, executive compensation should be tied to longer term growth. Part of their compensation should be held back as a reserve for 'clawback' if they underperform. There's too much of an incentive to do short term risky shit for short term windfalls that put the future of the firm at risk.

"
6) Finally, each and every employee would receive six weeks of vacation per year. The company would close shop completely for two weeks in July or August and two weeks in December. The remaining two weeks of vacation would be taken at the discretion of each employee. Aside from these six weeks, there would be no official cap in terms of the "40 hour work week." If your boss needs you to work 80 hours per week for several weeks to get a project through, then that is what is expected of you. No overtime pay would be awarded."

LOL


"7) Elimination of the minimum wage."

Not that minimum wage would really make a difference since it's too far below market equilibrium anyway.

 

[Phokus]

Ok, well here is one I've found that is just the manufacturing sector.
(Its average)

I haven't been able to find any data showing real compensation getting lower, but I'll keep looking.

1. That's specific to a very narrow part of the American workforce.

2. That still doesn't sound like 'median' wages. Does that include management/CEO's?

3. Does that include manufacturing companies that have their headquarters in the US, but the actual manufacturing done outside? And they don't count the foreign manufacturing labor, only American labor?

 

[Phokus]

I'm a free market anarchist. Regardless of what I advocate, I see you have been able to completely side step certain issues, and the people in this thread don't realize who they are arguing with.

As soon as I start talking about free market anarchism all I hear is howls of: national defense! roads! police! schools! food quality! etc.

Here it looks like you managed to sidestep all of the above and debate an economic system. What fucking horse shit.

Nobody's side stepped anything. Why would you need a centralized government for any of that shit? Why would you need a centralized government in an anarchist commune? Anarcho-capitalism has never existed while Anarcho-Syndicalism has existed in Spain for a period of time . The Spanish A-S communities provided all those things that they needed. Capitalism is an unnatural system in the absence of government.

 

[Phokus]

edit: no that's not it either, hold on

 

[matt0611]

1. That's specific to a very narrow part of the American workforce.

2. That still doesn't sound like 'median' wages. Does that include management/CEO's?

3. Does that include manufacturing companies that have their headquarters in the US, but the actual manufacturing done outside? And they don't count the foreign manufacturing labor, only American labor?

1. I have one that is similar to the broad economy, but I just used the manufacturing because this is usually the industry where people say the wages are too low.

2. Its not wages, its compensation (wages+benefits). I believe it does include managers, I'm having a hard time finding data that excludes them. If you know of any...

3. Its only american labor, not foreign.

That image is not showing up for me ^^^^

 

[GTaudiophile]

Phokus: I said it was my variant. The Germans do have a strong union culture.

 

[Steeplerot]

I'm a free market anarchist. Regardless of what I advocate, I see you have been able to completely side step certain issues, and the people in this thread don't realize who they are arguing with.

His argument is simple. Look at history in "free-market" situations. 1906 San Francisco, every neighborhood had varying degrees of quality private fire departments based off income of the neighborhood. All 6 something of them. When the gas mains busted after the "big one" almost the whole city burned since the "free market" could not scale because people were too busy arguing $ instead of getting the job done.

Like anything else a "balance" is not tyranny.

One of the most flawed aspects in right-wing capitalist libertarianism ideology is that it throws out good just because it cannot have it's fundamentalist idea of perfection.

This is a immature not well thought out ideology that has never worked in real life even, which is why it translates so well to the radio and tee-vee sets for mass market consumption to people who need to "believe" that the market fairy will save them one day instead of looking at the real problems.

Always easier to say to tear something down until you realize you realistically would be setting up the same deal in the end. If you are a libertarian and/or anarchist I suggest you read up on actual libertarianism through history that has worked, not the us corporate brand here funded by mises and shit.

 

[Phokus]

1. I have one that is similar to the broad economy

2. Its not wages, its compensation (wages+benefits). I believe it does include managers, I'm having a hard time finding data that excludes them. If you know of any...

3. Its only american labor, not foreign.

That image is not showing up for me ^^^^

Yeah the graph i had was wrong, after reading it again. The pew research article i linked says that for 30 years income has stagnated though and gives numbers, just not a graph.

Edit: Or more accurately, men in their 30's earn less than their fathers did in the 70's.

Relying on Census Bureau figures, the study's authors found that after adjusting for inflation, men in their 30s in 2004 had a median income of about $35,000 per year, for a 12 percent drop compared with $40,000 per year for men in the same age group in 1974.

http://money.cnn.com/2007/05/25/pf/mobility_study/index.htm?cnn=yes

Anyway, I would also suspect that health insurance hyperinflation would skew the benefits part. You're not really getting all that much more healthcare for the yearly increase in costs.

 

[matt0611]

Yeah the graph i had was wrong, after reading it again. The pew research article i linked says that for 30 years income has stagnated though and gives numbers, just not a graph.

http://money.cnn.com/2007/05/25/pf/mobility_study/index.htm?cnn=yes

Anyway, I would also suspect that health insurance hyperinflation would skew the benefits part. You're not really getting all that much more healthcare for the yearly increase in costs.

Oh yeah, the health care costs is a huge problem, its sucking up way too much money for what its providing us. I agree.

 

[PrinceofWands]

I personally would prefer some sort of self-initiated variant of the German concept called "Mitbestimmung" (co-determination).

My variant would include the following:

6) Finally, each and every employee would receive six weeks of vacation per year. The company would close shop completely for two weeks in July or August and two weeks in December. The remaining two weeks of vacation would be taken at the discretion of each employee. Aside from these six weeks, there would be no official cap in terms of the "40 hour work week." If your boss needs you to work 80 hours per week for several weeks to get a project through, then that is what is expected of you. No overtime pay would be awarded.

Welcome back robber barons, welcome back.

 

[Phokus]

Phokus: I said it was my variant. The Germans do have a strong union culture.

Oh ok, i misread that, but it seems to me that if you don't have an organized workforce, those few representatives could easily collude with the board.

 

[Libertarianz]

His argument is simple. Look at history in "free-market" situations. 1906 San Francisco, every neighborhood had varying degrees of quality private fire departments based off income of the neighborhood. All 6 something of them. When the gas mains busted after the "big one" almost the whole city burned since the "free market" could not scale because people were too busy arguing $ instead of getting the job done.

Thats a very weak argument, just because a system hasnt work in the past doesnt mean it cant be perfected in the future, we already know in theory and history that free market capitalism is morally superior to socialism and that private property of the means of production is more effcient in allocating resources than collective ownership of the means of production, the only problem is the state and non voluntary exchanges, once we get rid of the state the voluntary human cooperation will unleashed superior productivity.

Like anything else a "balance" is not tyranny.

Any violation of property rights is tyranny

One of the most flawed aspects in right-wing capitalist libertarianism ideology is that it throws out good just because it cannot have it's fundamentalist idea of perfection.

On the contrary, it leaves what works (capitalism) and dismisses what cant work (government)

This is a immature not well thought out ideology

You need to read anarcho-capitalist Murray Rothbard

that has never worked in real life even

There you go again, the eternal excuse for mediocrity.

which is why it translates so well to the radio and tee-vee sets for mass market consumption to people who need to "believe" that the market fairy will save them one day instead of looking at the real problems.

It sounds like you are talking of the "stateless communist society" with collective ownership of the means of production where the state would "wither away" bullshit.

Always easier to say to tear something down until you realize you realistically would be setting up the same deal in the end.

How can you have a working state when people would not allow their property to be violated by bureaucrats?

If you are a libertarian and/or anarchist I suggest you read up on actual libertarianism through history that has worked

I assume you mean the spanish republicans, yeah that didnt work.
State collectivization or worker collectivization (same nonsense) cant work because without private property of the means of production economic calculation cant be achieved.

The only reason the republic didnt crashed into economic chaos was because the fascists conquered it first.

not the us corporate brand here funded by mises and shit

"Corporate"

I believe yo meant Rothbard since Ludwig von Mises never was an advocate of anarcho-capitalism.

 

[Libertarianz]

"Capitalists will hang themselves from the very rope we will sell them."

Sounds familiar....... Lenin? :thumbsdown:

 

[Libertarianz]

Like i said before, when these types of businesses start up and become successful, they eventually go public and make the original founders wealthy like hell.

And no public company is going to convert to this form of business because the capital is owned by outsiders (plus, the CEO's wouldn't be able to extract surplus value in this system since surplus value is shared by everyone).

Oh my God, you still believe in surplus value? The labor theory of value?

 

[Libertarianz]

Typical libertopian drivel, if their idea of a perfectly fundamentalist free market is not in effect then screw the "good" and rules of the road to protect Capitalism -anything but their god of greed is tyranny lol -its their way or the highway.

Actually the fact that this corporation can freely exist in a Capitalist economy tells you about the virtues of Economic Freedom.

Those folks are not even worth arguing with until they mature their political views.

What a childish reponse.

You know whats even more funny about Mondragon?

It was created under the rule of Generalisimo Francisco Franco the fascist dictator of Spain in the 50s and it adopts a variant of the model of National Syndicalism or Corporate Syndicalism that was the predominant economic model in Fascist Spain.

Father Arizmendiarrieta creator of the Mondragon corporation was awarded with the Gold Medal for Merit in Work by Franco himself.

Thats right the socialists finally realized that in order for socialism to work..... they had to change it to fascism

 

[sandorski]

wwybywb?

 

[Phokus]

Oh my God, you still believe in surplus value? The labor theory of value?

Question:

1: Join Date: Feb 2011 + Thread Necro. Who were you before you were banned?


2: How many large corporations have you worked in? I'm in corporate finance and any idiot can see that the management and capital class extract far more value than they deserve compared to those who actually create real value - for example, in my last company, a fortune 50 company, the engineers/software engineers created the actual product (thus value) for the company, but were constantly shitted on with downsizing while management rewarded themselves with huge bonuses. The farther up you go up the food chain, the less they had to do with the success of the company.

Edit:

wwybywb?

It really is that obvious isn't it

 

[Phokus]

You need to read anarcho-capitalist Murray Rothbard

Anarcho-Capitalism is hilarious because even most Libertarians recognize you need a minimal level of government for Capitalism to exist - Capitalism is a state sponsored system of economic organization.

Anarchism and Capitalism has to be the ultimate contradiction, like mixing oil and water.