Mondragon Cooperative Corporation: A superior economic system

[Phokus]

You are supposing that management is a meritocracy and of all positions within a corporation it's probably the least true. I can point to the major financial catastrophes as examples. Canadian management of financial institutions was clearly superior to failed ones elsewhere earning far more here. Our management executives earn many times more than their peers with less actual accountability with no added value. In fact the whole top down system is screwed. The people in my company have no clue how to run things because they don't know or care about anything other than what the market will expect in the next quarter. They cut payroll which drives down payroll which hurts customer service decreasing sales which gives them an opportunity to cut payroll. For increasing "productivity" they get raises and a bonus. This is not unique. Just why its this a good thing?

What the hell, aren't you a conservative? You sound like a whiny commie here

 

[PokerGuy]

Sounds like more pie in the sky utopian junk. It hasn't caught in most places because it's a dumb idea.

 

[Phokus]

Sounds like more pie in the sky utopian junk. It hasn't caught in most places because it's a dumb idea.

Clearly layoffs/wage stagnation/outsourcing/destruction of the middle class is superior.

Literally GOP.txt

 

[PokerGuy]

Clearly layoffs/wage stagnation/outsourcing is superior.

Layoffs are part of what keeps companies / economies efficient. Without them, you end up with a bloated organization like the government.

 

[Phokus]

Layoffs are part of what keeps companies / economies efficient. Without them, you end up with a bloated organization like the government.

Layoffs are also why we have structural unemployment and record numbers of people on food stamps. What a great system.

 

[JS80]

Just a reminder that JS80 brags about helping upper management in laying off people and he actually takes glee in doing so.

Typical liberal, bending words and spreading lies.

 

[Phokus]

Typical liberal, bending words and spreading lies.

This coming from the guy who constantly makes racist/homophobic comments then turns on the spin machine and denies it later.

Face it, you're a sociopath.

 

[matt0611]

Is there anything stopping a company from adopting a model like this in the united states?
(serious question)

If not, then maybe some companies should try it, see if it works better for them.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Layoffs are part of what keeps companies / economies efficient. Without them, you end up with a bloated organization like the government.

Layoffs are also why we have structural unemployment and record numbers of people on food stamps. What a great system.

Without layoffs, a company is expending capital on labor that is not productive. Welfare state exists being paid for by the consumer.
It also removes an incentive for the employee to work better if they know their job is secure.

See the auto industry and their job banks.

 

[Phokus]

Without layoffs, a company is expending capital on labor that is not productive. Welfare state exists being paid for by the consumer.
It also removes an incentive for the employee to work better if they know their job is secure.

See the auto industry and their job banks.

Except these days, it's not really about 'unproductive labor', it's about labor that's 'too expensive', compared to 3rd world labor who are starving and willing to work for 50 cents an hour.

 

[Phokus]

Is there anything stopping a company from adopting a model like this in the united states?
(serious question)

If not, then maybe some companies should try it, see if it works better for them.

Like i said before, when these types of businesses start up and become successful, they eventually go public and make the original founders wealthy like hell.

And no public company is going to convert to this form of business because the capital is owned by outsiders (plus, the CEO's wouldn't be able to extract surplus value in this system since surplus value is shared by everyone).

 

[Dissipate]

This is very true. Anarcho-Capitalism is the dumbest political/economic philosophy, considering you basically need at least a minimal government for Capitalism to work. Actually most libertarians believe you need at least a minimalist government (thus validating that capitalism is a result of government), but anarcho-capitalists are a different breed. I think the Spaniards have effectively shown that, in absence of government, capitalism is a completely unnatural economic system and people tend towards communal bottom up systems instead.

When we reach peak oil, capitalism is going to crumble because the food supply is heavily centralized with big corporations owning most of the production. Sure they give us cheap food now, but when they can't deliver our food anymore because of oil shocks, we'll have to rely more on our local communities to grow our food.

Why haven't you answered any of my above questions? Roads, schools, police, fire etc. How will they be funded without taxation and a central government?

 

[frostedflakes]

Requires an educated and intelligent workforce.

Wouldn't work in the Nascar Nation.

This, it seems like for it to work most employees would have to be pretty dedicated and involved in the company. Not sure how realistic this is in an apathetic nation where nearly half of our eligible voters can't even be bothered to show up at the polls.

The US does have some relatively big employee owned corporations, though. Black & Veatch just a few hundred miles from where I live comes to mind. But I tend to think along the same lines as others in this thread, if it's such a great system, why is it so rare among large corporations?

 

[Steeplerot]

Why haven't you answered any of my above questions? Roads, schools, police, fire etc. How will they be funded without taxation and a central government?

What does this have to do with the economic system in the thread? Are you implying that Syndicalist governments are lawless? What a misinformed view. Anarchism in a term does not = vacuum of power. In A-S it denotes lack of "bosses" in its system.

George Orwell wrote all about fighting and living in Syndicalist Catalonia.

 

[Genx87]

Except these days, it's not really about 'unproductive labor', it's about labor that's 'too expensive', compared to 3rd world labor who are starving and willing to work for 50 cents an hour.

It doesnt matter if it is because the worker isnt actually working or if they are working but not producing enough to justify their cost. Both are unproductive enough to not justify their existence. Are you really trying to say companies should never layoff unproductive workforces? Go run a company for a few years and get back to us when you have a bad run on revenue and keep your labor force in tact.

 

[Phokus]

Why haven't you answered any of my above questions? Roads, schools, police, fire etc. How will they be funded without taxation and a central government?

In an anarcho-syndicalist society, those services would be provided by local communities. This was previously answered. Why would you need a centralized government for any of those functions?

 

[Phokus]

It doesnt matter if it is because the worker isnt actually working or if they are working but not producing enough to justify their cost. Both are unproductive enough to not justify their existence. Are you really trying to say companies should never layoff unproductive workforces? Go run a company for a few years and get back to us when you have a bad run on revenue and keep your labor force in tact.

At the same time, you can't cry about 'unproductive labor' and also cry about the welfare state. Both go hand in hand, thanks to your free trade idiodicy. If someone is 'unproductive' (because they really don't do anything) and they get laid off, the best scenario is that they pick up another job to fill a useful role in a company. But thanks to capital moving out of this country, those 'unproductive' workers are fighting for fewer and fewer productive jobs in this country. That's the whole point.

 

[Genx87]

At the same time, you can't cry about 'unproductive labor' and also cry about the welfare state. Both go hand in hand, thanks to your free trade idiodicy. If someone is 'unproductive' (because they really don't do anything) and they get laid off, the best scenario is that they pick up another job to fill a useful role in a company. But thanks to capital moving out of this country, those 'unproductive' workers are fighting for fewer and fewer productive jobs in this country. That's the whole point.

Oh god the sky is falling the sky is falling. It is people like you who hit their own jaws with their knee's to any crisis that will send this country over the edge.

For the record I have no problem with unemployment insurance.

 

[Phokus]

Oh god the sky is falling the sky is falling. It is people like you who hit their own jaws with their knee's to any crisis that will send this country over the edge.

For the record I have no problem with unemployment insurance.

Hahaha

1) Unemployment benefits are going to run out for a lot of people.

2) More people are on food stamps than ever before

3) Wages and job insecurity has increasingly gotten worse over 30 years and mosts economists are now predicting that the natural employment rate is going to be higher thanks to offshoring work. You think they're wrong after everything we've seen? Come back to reality.

 

[Genx87]

Hahaha

1) Unemployment benefits are going to run out for a lot of people.

2) More people are on food stamps than ever before

3) Wages and job insecurity has increasingly gotten worse over 30 years and mosts economists are now predicting that the natural employment rate is going to be higher thanks to offshoring work. You think they're wrong after everything we've seen? Come back to reality.

Here is a clue for you in case you didnt notice. We are in the middle of the worst recession in decades. This recovery isnt going to happen over night.

Where were you 4 years ago when we had an unemployment rate of under 5%?

 

[Phokus]

Here is a clue for you in case you didnt notice. We are in the middle of the worst recession in decades. This recovery isnt going to happen over night.

Where were you 4 years ago when we had an unemployment rate of under 5%?

Here's another clue

1) Companies are more profitable than ever and after shedding tons of American workers, they've gotten even more confirmation that they don't need the American workforce to be profitable

2) Adjusted for inflation, the median American makes less than their fathers 30 years ago:

http://money.cnn.com/2007/05/25/pf/mobility_study/index.htm?cnn=yes

3) You forgot the economy 4 years ago was all smoke an mirrors fueled by a bubble

4) There is no doubt that we will have a recovery but every recovery will be weaker and weaker than the ones before it

 

[Genx87]

Here's another clue

1) Companies are more profitable than ever and after shedding tons of American workers, they've gotten even more confirmation that they don't need the American workforce to be profitable

2) Adjusted for inflation, the median American makes less than their fathers 30 years ago:

http://money.cnn.com/2007/05/25/pf/mobility_study/index.htm?cnn=yes

3) You forgot the economy 4 years ago was all smoke an mirrors fueled by a bubble

4) There is no doubt that we will have a recovery but every recovery will be weaker and weaker than the ones before it

And what is your solution to your percieved problems? More govt? Isolation? Putting our collective heads in the sand and pretending it is 1958????

 

[Phokus]

And what is your solution to your percieved problems? More govt? Isolation? Putting our collective heads in the sand and pretending it is 1958????

Well, for one, admitting that there is a problem with free trade policies. Two, stop pretending that getting rid taxes for the wealthy is somehow going to help stop the bleeding of jobs. This is literally the GOP prescription for EVERYTHING, even though it has nothing to do with anything. In essence, stop listening to idiot conservatives. Yes, i'm saying you and your ilk are the cause of all our problems.

Also did you read the OP? What do you think of an economic system in which everyone had ownership of the enterprise, rather than just a select few? Oh wait, you didn't and probably thought, 'hurf durf, communism'.

 

[Martin]

And what is your solution to your percieved problems? More govt? Isolation? Putting our collective heads in the sand and pretending it is 1958????

According to the recent election, the solution seems to be to bury your head in the sand and pretend it's 1776.

 

[Genx87]

Well, for one, admitting that there is a problem with free trade policies. Two, stop pretending that getting rid taxes for the wealthy is somehow going to help stop the bleeding of jobs. This is literally the GOP prescription for EVERYTHING, even though it has nothing to do with anything. In essence, stop listening to idiot conservatives. Yes, i'm saying you and your ilk are the cause of all our problems.

That isnt a solution. Opposing everything one side says is like putting your head in the sand.

Also did you read the OP? What do you think of an economic system in which everyone had ownership of the enterprise, rather than just a select few? Oh wait, you didn't and probably thought, 'hurf durf, communism'.

If workers want to organize that way who am I to stop them? Are you suggesting govt force people to work like this?