Modern home materials & technologies discussion thread

[Kaido]

there are a lot of reasons we stopped building cabinets out of metal in the 50's.

i am a wood worker and have built cabinets. a well thought out design is not terrible to build if you have the ablity to make accurate and square cuts, and you know how it all goes together. You would really need a 4 foot by 8 foot cnc to build cabinets, and why CNC? you are cutting pretty basic shapes. you could do it much faster with a track saw and a measuring tape. for my stuff, i use good plywood with applied veneer edging for doors and they turn out quite well. getting all the measurements right on the hinges is critical as well.

a well built cabinet will last 100+ years if you don't have a major flood. wood is not some kind of crappy material that just "falls apart" its all about the quality of construction, same as a metal cabinet. cheap stuff is stapled together, good quality has screws and glue in all the joints, is made from plywood and not partical board or MDF.
In Vietnam and India, the business are segregated by type on streets, so its a whole street of metal workers, or a whole street of clothing makers. the things they produce may look good, but they are crudly built for their expectations, i really doubt you would be happy with these.

blum stuff is good, but i could have spent 10k on blum hardware, when i did my whole kitchen for 10k including a 48 in sub zero, dacor duel fuel stove, kholer heavy gauge, huge single basin sink, concrete and reclaimed bowling ally countertops. that kitchen made us an extra 35k when we sold, the sellers said they made an above asking offer due solely to the kitchen.

Awesome post!! My current place has some kind of cheapo wood (it's not particle board or MDF tho) & it's pretty terrible to work with. Crappy slides, crappy cabinet design, crappy wood, crappy everything. It's all just...rickety. VERY frustrating!

As far as the reasons for a CNC machine:

1. I currently don't have a garage or shop, so I'm going to be using it in the small unfinished portion of my basement. This is a small ~30"x30" model to learn on. I'm setting up dust control & ventilation next week. I do have a buddy I can mooch off to use a table saw & other tools, but it will be easier to just do it on my machine at home whenever I'm in the mood to tinker with it. I may or may not redo the kitchen myself in this place using my machine, along with other tools, as means of practicing the skills required to do a great kitchen build.

2. I have an interest in learning CNC, and have a big love of automation in general (just think it's plain cool!). So my geeky side is driving the machine portion of it, haha!

3. I can get extreme accuracy (required for good cabinets) by using a machine to do the cuts for me.

4. I have a lot of custom features that I want to build in (spice racks, built-in metal cups, etc.) that are non-standard. Plus I will probably do some CNC carving on some of the faceplates & other exterior-facing surfaces for decorative designs.

My current plan is:

1. Learn basic architecture, CAD, CNC, codes in my area (plumbing, electrical, etc.), and so on. This is where I'm at now.

2. Purchase a house (like an old farmhouse, with some land) that needs to be torn down, preferably with a barn (that way I already have water, electrical, Internet, etc.). Alternatively, buy land (I can get a mortgage on a house, but land requires the cash up-front, so $$$ right off the bat) & build something like a Sprung Structures barn. I currently plan on doing this next year (2020).

3. Build the house out of ICF blocks (Quad-lock). This will be either a 2020 or 2021 project. Along with that, I plan on building a larger CNC machine to put in the barn to make all of the custom stuff over the course of a year. My current plan is to build a 6 x 12' heavy-duty Greenbull machine:

BuildYourCNC - 6'x12' Heavy Duty CNC Spindle/Laser Machine (greenBull 6X)

The greenBull 6X is a massive CNC featuring an enormous 6'x12' cutting area. Big jobs require big machinery and this bad boy is definitely up to the task. We also offer a <a href="https://www.buildyourcnc.com/images/FrameFor3DCarving-FrontViewHigh.png" >Long Z</b></a> option that has the...

buildyourcnc.com

Once the house is completed, I can continue to use the machine for plenty of other projects. For example, I'm currently into mini-arcades (1up-style), and I would like to get back into speaker-building again at some point.

Custom features of the house include:

1. Built-in furniture (LOTS of cabinets)

2. Murphy beds (from scratch, not a kit)

3. Various nooks (ex. window nooks for sitting, reading, etc.)

4. Lots of custom kitchen features (such as specialty drawers)

5. Built-in audio systems in every room (IBS subwoofers, speakers, etc.)

I currently know exactly zero things about cabinet-making. I am also considering cabinets from Cliq Studios:

CliqStudios - #1 Online Cabinet & Design Company

America’s #1 online kitchen cabinet seller and designer studio. Our free expert design service will plan a kitchen that's customized just for you.

www.cliqstudios.com

I don't know how much work is involved in cabinetry. I have zero experience. I have the ability to learn, however, and I am not on any kind of deadline at all, so there is no rush. I worked for a house builder for a few years in college, so I have some basic experience with building things, but no serious format shop training. I do have a lot of friends in the home-building & home-remodeling business that I can call on for help & support, however.

So in that light, what would you recommend for my situation? I am not hung up on doing it all myself, but I think that would be the best way to get the results I want. I'm currently watching a bunch of videos on Youtube & am looking at some books to learn from. Do you have any suggestions for educational resources?

 

[herm0016]

i installed a full kitchen of cabinets from Cliq for a friends total kitchen remodel and i thought they were very well built. I would consider them for my own kitchen. i had a local guy build my full kitchen due to time constraints and did all the finishing/custom touches/install my self. like a pull out bin for 100 lbs of dog food with a drawer underneath to hold the dog bowls, pull out trash and recycling, counter tops, open shelving, trim around built in fridge and microwave, etc. I would never order unfinished cabinets again. it took me forever to sand/prime/ 2 coats of finish them in my garage. the cabinets i have built from scratch have been from pre-finish plywood for other, less critical applications. that kitchen had something like 15 cabinet boxes and oh so many drawer fronts and doors and panels.


this is the one i did a few years ago.
the post on the corner of the island was the corner of walls on both sides of where the island now is. island is 5 foot by 6 foot for scale, and fridge is 48 in wide.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ceVYenAinscbwm1w7


start by building small stuff. a bookshelf, a box for something, a bathroom remodel really pulls out a lot of different skills in a small and manageable space- cabinets, electrical, tile, flooring, etc. see if there is a local club or shared workshop space with classes. building a whole house is simple, building a whole house that is properly air sealed, weather resistant and energy efficient is unbelievably complicated. I like the "build show" crew on youtube, they are professionals, you have to watch for their sponsors though. Many of the builders and woodworkers on youtube may make something that looks cool, but its not built to modern standards and will not last. I got recommended one last night and it looked good in the video, but the way the guy build a wood counter-top was extremely inefficient. he used the wrong tools of the jobs, did things is a very odd order and used some products that were not fit for purpose. it will fall apart eventually when the wood movement catches up to the adhesive strength. most of the comments were praising him for his work..... so you really have to watch your sources.

Start reading Sawmill creek forums and become a contributor over there. it really cuts through the DIY bs and there are a lot of professionals that love to help us home shop guys out when we have a question. There are some amazing craftsmen over there that are just stand up people and really want to help other members of all levels.

 

[Greenman]

In the last 40 years doing residential remodeling I've only once seen a cabinet damaged by termites. That particular house was infested with them.

 

[skyking]

My neighbor would let me use his cabinet saw, but I got one for myself. That and a solid core door, sawhorses, $100 Kreg jig, a 12" planer and chopsaw and I made all my own cabinet boxes and drawers.
I purchased the doors/drawer fronts from a cabinet shop. They also sold me the maple for face frames to match.
There are 53 doors/drawers in my kitchen, dining, and laundry room cabinets. The cabinet shop provided Blum hinges and soft close slides, and the doors, and the S2S maple for about 2 grand.
I shot a clear water based floor grade urethane with a HVLP cheapo gun. It is harder than a conversion coat.
There is never a need to use CNC to build cabinets. We have been building them with a tape measure and table saw for a long time now.

 

[Greenman]

My neighbor would let me use his cabinet saw, but I got one for myself. That and a solid core door, sawhorses, $100 Kreg jig, a 12" planer and chopsaw and I made all my own cabinet boxes and drawers.
I purchased the doors/drawer fronts from a cabinet shop. They also sold me the maple for face frames to match.
There are 53 doors/drawers in my kitchen, dining, and laundry room cabinets. The cabinet shop provided Blum hinges and soft close slides, and the doors, and the S2S maple for about 2 grand.
I shot a clear water based floor grade urethane with a HVLP cheapo gun. It is harder than a conversion coat.
There is never a need to use CNC to build cabinets. We have been building them with a tape measure and table saw for a long time now.

Cabinet saw? I assume you're talking about a table saw?

 

[Micrornd]

Cabinet saw? I assume you're talking about a table saw?

Kinda yes, but kinda no.
A (good) cabinet saw has much tighter tolerances and repeatable accuracy than a standard table saw.
Think of it as a step above.

 

[skyking]

Cabinet saw? I assume you're talking about a table saw?

yes, a table saw. I prefer to do cabinets on a heavy cast iron table 5 hp 220V saw, as opposed to a portable. I have used some really nice portable saws, but the big heavy saw with extensions stays put nicer when you are singlehanding full sheets of 3/4 across them.
I call all those non-portable cast iron top saws cabinet saws.

 

[Kaido]

My neighbor would let me use his cabinet saw, but I got one for myself. That and a solid core door, sawhorses, $100 Kreg jig, a 12" planer and chopsaw and I made all my own cabinet boxes and drawers.
I purchased the doors/drawer fronts from a cabinet shop. They also sold me the maple for face frames to match.
There are 53 doors/drawers in my kitchen, dining, and laundry room cabinets. The cabinet shop provided Blum hinges and soft close slides, and the doors, and the S2S maple for about 2 grand.
I shot a clear water based floor grade urethane with a HVLP cheapo gun. It is harder than a conversion coat.
There is never a need to use CNC to build cabinets. We have been building them with a tape measure and table saw for a long time now.

It's the opposite - now that I have a small CNC, I want to use it for everything! Hahaha. I definitely love the soft-close slides. Picked up a few books on woodworking & am currently learning the 101 on everything. I'm probably going to remodel the kitchen in my current place as a proving ground for the future (hopefully) house.

I've been reading up on MDF for use in cabinetry. I always thought it was kinda crappy stuff & mainly used it for my speaker-building projects, but it looks like a pretty viable option:

MDF vs Wood: Why MDF has Become So Popular For Cabinet Doors | Sebring Design Build

Wood is seen as a strong material while MDF is often viewed as a weak alternative. The truth is, both have their pros and cons, learn the differences.

sebringdesignbuild.com

MDF Vs Solid Wood: Which is Better for Your Cabinet Doors? – Maplevilles Cabinetry

maplevillescabinetry.com

I have access to a large supply of MDF, so at the very least, it will be good to practice on!

 

[Kaido]

TimerTech (AZEK) pavers:

Composite Decking and Outdoor Living Products | TimberTech

Explore composite decking, railing, and pavers that offer versatile designs, superior technology, and the best warranties in outdoor living.

www.timbertech.com

3 kinds:

1. Standard Pavers
2. Permeable Pavers
3. Resurfacing Pavers

The permeable pavers look really nice:

Permeable Composite Pavers to Reduce Runoff | TimberTech

Our composite permeable pavers feature joints filled with small stones that were designed & tested to drastically reduce runoff while resisting mold, mildew & stains.

www.timbertech.com

Composite permeable pavers are slip resistant and specially designed to drastically reduce runoff for a better alternative to concrete.

Can pavers be used with a snow melt system?

TimberTech Pavers have shown moderate success with different hydronic and electric snow-melt systems when the temperature is above 15 degrees Fahrenheit. Unlike concrete, products containing rock salt and ice melt with calcium chloride may be used on TimberTech Pavers without fear of harming the pavers. These products generally deteriorate concrete, and may void their warranty.

They've got a drainage system as well:

https://www.timbertech.com/webdam/finished-documents/technical-resources/pavers/ss_azek_enkadrain.pdf

 

[skyking]

CNC on plywood dicing = a ton of chips on the floor for nothing at all. There is no gain on making rectangular shapes, only material waste.

 

[Kaido]

CNC on plywood dicing = a ton of chips on the floor for nothing at all. There is no gain on making rectangular shapes, only material waste.

Two benefits, for me at least:

1. I don't own many wood tools, so computerized cutting can fill the void for many things that I don't currently own

2. It allows for carving, so I can model stuff out in 3D on the computer & then cut it on the machine

 

[skyking]

I do the custom design, hire the doors done, and build the drawers and boxes. I sub out all the shaper work

 

[Kaido]

I do the custom design, hire the doors done, and build the drawers and boxes. I sub out all the shaper work

Any tips on drawer & box building? I'm learning about different woods right now, then moving onto joinery, and the cabinetry. Months of studying & practice ahead, haha!

 

[skyking]

I use a dado blade for boxes and drawers. I tend to use the middle of the road stuff from Oshlun, 42 tooth 8" set.
This video details my drawer construction; I can make dovetails but this is plenty strong and much faster, especially when making all sorts of different sizes. All you need is a good table saw, dado and fine blades, some clamps and glue.

I use baltic birch plywood for drawers and cut my own edge veneers for the top edges. I find it to be quick, easy, and very cost effective. Solid wood has some appeal but it is costly and truly not as stable as fine grade plywood.
I build 5 sided drawers, I order up a drawer front and hang it on my 4 sided drawer.
I have not done European style cabinets, only face frame style shaker or shaped doors.
My saw is an older right tilt Grizzly similar to this one. I picked it up used on CL for 700, with a few boxes of goodies like dial indicators, feed dogs, extra blades, calibration plate.
https://www.grizzly.com/products/Grizzly-10-3-HP-240V-Cabinet-Left-Tilting-Table-Saw/G1023RL

I also use a planer to true up my face frame wood, shave down edge veneers, things like that.
Link to a small table top unit. I have a floor stand one with cast iron table.
Notice the heavy cast iron theme
Left tilt is preferable and the new standard in saws. There is an inherent bind when doing beveled cuts on a right tilt saw with a right side fence.
Some will move the fence to the left for those cuts, but the fence should also be set with some runout to free the wood; moving to the left will get you in a different bind
thread on setting fence runout.

Those tools, a cheap laser equipped cutoff saw, screw guns, wall of clamps, and kreg tools is pretty much all I use.
I Kreg together the boxes, face frames, and attach the face frames with kreg.
classic Kreg jig

 

[Micrornd]

The permeable pavers look really nice:

Here we had permeable concrete for parking lots, since in almost all commercial zoning they are required to retain any runoff on site.
Thus the permeable concrete allows more paved area vs unpaved.
However I would hazard a guess that those pavers are just like permeable concrete in function.
That would mean they need to be cleaned on a regular basis to keep from clogging (and that is long before they show reasonable dirt or grime)
And if left without cleaning too long, any dirt or grime can imbed itself deeper than cleaning can remove (even pressurized) so you end up with a none permeable surface,
and possibly not enough permeable are to prevent local "flooding and retention".
Permeable concrete was less than a success for parking lots.

 

[skyking]

It went to hell at a local Safeway store.

 

[Micrornd]

It went to hell at a local Safeway store.

Here, where that happened and runoff was not contained on site, they were allowed a very slight leeway, but anything above that and the parking lots were torn up, drainage and onsite retention systems had to be put in at the property owner's expense.
Apparently the runoff ordinances were well written (that alone is amazing), as I don't remember a single successful challenge.
I know one Winn-Dixie was closed for a month, while the parking lot was removed, drainage and percolation system installed, and then the parking lot repaved in regular concrete.
They were smart enough to do an interior remodel of the store while they were closed.

 

[Kaido]

Open the Door Products:

https://www.openthedoorproducts.biz/

Magnetic, soft-close catches:

1. Quiet magnetic operation
2. Easy to open
3. Soft-close
4. High-quality action
5. Enough pulling force to pull in a warped door

I think this may be the same brand:

Error 404 – page not found – Häfele

Error 404 – page not found

www.hafele.com

1. Magnets are separated by a rubber bumper, so door closes quietly
2. Magnets are strong enough to pull in warped doors (up to 1/4” approx.)
3. (2) units per door are recommended; 1 on top and 1 on bottom

 

[Kaido]

Here we had permeable concrete for parking lots, since in almost all commercial zoning they are required to retain any runoff on site.
Thus the permeable concrete allows more paved area vs unpaved.
However I would hazard a guess that those pavers are just like permeable concrete in function.
That would mean they need to be cleaned on a regular basis to keep from clogging (and that is long before they show reasonable dirt or grime)
And if left without cleaning too long, any dirt or grime can imbed itself deeper than cleaning can remove (even pressurized) so you end up with a none permeable surface,
and possibly not enough permeable are to prevent local "flooding and retention".
Permeable concrete was less than a success for parking lots.

I watched the install video for the surface refinish version & they have a requirement of a 1" slope every 6 feet. I'd imagine you'd still need to clean it sometimes though, even with the runoff.

 

[Kaido]

Heatworks Model 3 Ohmic Array tankless water heater: ($900)

MODEL 3 Tankless Electric Water Heater

The only water heater in the world powered by Heatworks' patented Ohmic Array Technology instead of metal heating elements that rust and scale, the MODEL 3 is a smart, electric tankless water heater that provides endless hot water on-demand for homes and points-of-use. No annual maintenance. No...

myheatworks.com

Zero maintenance with 6-year full replacement warranty. Compact size & no venting required!

 

[Micrornd]

Heatworks Model 3 Ohmic Array tankless water heater: ($900)

MODEL 3 Tankless Electric Water Heater

The only water heater in the world powered by Heatworks' patented Ohmic Array Technology instead of metal heating elements that rust and scale, the MODEL 3 is a smart, electric tankless water heater that provides endless hot water on-demand for homes and points-of-use. No annual maintenance. No...

myheatworks.com

Zero maintenance with 6-year full replacement warranty. Compact size & no venting required!

I usually find your picks very interesting, but this one, I just don't understand ?
I have a 6 year old model of this (only changes are in appearance) -

Stiebel Eltron Tempra 24 Trend Self-Modulating 24 kW 4.68 GPM Compact Residential Electric Tankless Water Heater Tempra 24 Trend - The Home Depot

Powerful output, compact design, remarkable energy-saving features: Our whole house electric tankless water heaters are made to perform to the highest standards in terms of comfort and reliability. Intelligent

www.homedepot.com

$300+ cheaper, 100% efficient vs 99%, no venting, exact same heat rise/flow specs, self adjusting amp draw based on needed temp rise and flow (no human intervention needed or required), no wi-fi nonsense (you set a water heater's temp and forget it, that's why all fixtures have cold water to blend with), 7 year leak, 3 year failure warranty, same height, 5" wider, and 5" slimmer (projection) and the conductivity of the water doesn't matter in the least.
If a human reduces the amp draw via the phone app, depending on flow rate, it may never reach the desired temp.
If the graphite heating elements are in the water flow (as the literature would seem to indicate), there is this thing called mechanical erosion based on water flow.
And as to it's claim to "purer hot water", well it doesn't clean the water, so whatever goes in comes out the same (hopefully with no added graphite)

This looks (to me) like a product designed by millennials, just to be different and to be able to use a phone app with it.
I don't understand your choice
What did you see in it that I don't see ??

 

[Kaido]

I usually find your picks very interesting, but this one, I just don't understand ?
I have a 6 year old model of this (only changes are in appearance) -

Stiebel Eltron Tempra 24 Trend Self-Modulating 24 kW 4.68 GPM Compact Residential Electric Tankless Water Heater Tempra 24 Trend - The Home Depot

Powerful output, compact design, remarkable energy-saving features: Our whole house electric tankless water heaters are made to perform to the highest standards in terms of comfort and reliability. Intelligent

www.homedepot.com

$300+ cheaper, 100% efficient vs 99%, no venting, exact same heat rise/flow specs, self adjusting amp draw based on needed temp rise and flow (no human intervention needed or required), no wi-fi nonsense (you set a water heater's temp and forget it, that's why all fixtures have cold water to blend with), 7 year leak, 3 year failure warranty, same height, 5" wider, and 5" slimmer (projection) and the conductivity of the water doesn't matter in the least.
If a human reduces the amp draw via the phone app, depending on flow rate, it may never reach the desired temp.
If the graphite heating elements are in the water flow (as the literature would seem to indicate), there is this thing called mechanical erosion based on water flow.
And as to it's claim to "purer hot water", well it doesn't clean the water, so whatever goes in comes out the same (hopefully with no added graphite)

This looks (to me) like a product designed by millennials, just to be different and to be able to use a phone app with it.
I don't understand your choice
What did you see in it that I don't see ??

For starters - don't take this thread too seriously! It's mostly just a dumping ground for neat stuff I come across, haha! And there are plenty of tools & technologies that I'm totally unfamiliar with, so you may see some not-so-modern stuff on here sometimes too.

Tankless water heaters have been around for almost a hundred years. The difference with the Heatworks model from traditional tankless models, as you pointed out, is the heating method. For those unfamiliar with how the technology operates, traditional tankless heaters use metal heating elements to provide hot water on demand, rather than storing it in a tank. The Model 3 is unique in its approach because uses graphite electrodes. Because there are no heating elements, the only component inside of the Heatworks model that gets hot is the water itself. This has several benefits:

1. No plating
2. No scaling
3. No corroding
4. Longer lifespan
5. No maintenance required

Typically, metal heating elements boil the water at the point of contact, which causes the minerals in the water to break down & stick to the elements, which causes corrosion & rust over time, and also causes them to crack. Plus, the elements have to get up to 700 to 800F to heat the water up enough, whereas the graphite electrodes only get as hot as the water being heated. Hard water doesn't affect the heating abilities of graphite electrodes, although, as you mentioned, conductivity does - your water has to have 80 to 2000 µs of conductivity, so you have to either check with your water company or buy a cheap conductivity meter online (~$20). It's not a perfect system, nor is it cheap, but like mini-split ductless systems, it offers some nice features & benefits over traditional units, such as cost-savings, data-tracking, and various perks like a faster time to heat & better efficiency & a small physical footprint.

For the history on this particular graphite-electrode mode, Heatworks was originally a Kickstarter projectback in 2017:

HEATWORKS MODEL 1: Your next water heater!

MODEL 1 = 1 model for every water heating application. The most energy & water efficient, reliable & versatile water heater available.

www.kickstarter.com

They went through a few iterations & just started shipping the 3rd model in October:

Get Purer Hot Water with World's Most Advanced Water Heater

Introducing the all new MODEL 3 Water Heater by Heatworks with Ohmic Array Technology

www.kickstarter.com

I read mixed reviews about the first model...I'm curious to see how the third-gen offering pans out. I don't know if I'd ever use the temperature adjustment system on the app, because I've never touched the thermostat on my current tank water heater, but I do really like the data & cost-tracking features:



Is it revolutionary? No, it's definitely more evolutionary...both tank & tankless water heaters have been around for ages, and graphite electrodes have been around for awhile in the steel-making & automotive industries. Someone simply took the remix idea & applied it to compact tankless water heaters with graphite electrodes. I'm definitely curious to see some long-term reviews, as this may be a better option to go with than say a point-of-use instant hot-water system or a recirculating system.

 

[Greenman]

I usually find your picks very interesting, but this one, I just don't understand ?
I have a 6 year old model of this (only changes are in appearance) -

Stiebel Eltron Tempra 24 Trend Self-Modulating 24 kW 4.68 GPM Compact Residential Electric Tankless Water Heater Tempra 24 Trend - The Home Depot

Powerful output, compact design, remarkable energy-saving features: Our whole house electric tankless water heaters are made to perform to the highest standards in terms of comfort and reliability. Intelligent

www.homedepot.com

$300+ cheaper, 100% efficient vs 99%, no venting, exact same heat rise/flow specs, self adjusting amp draw based on needed temp rise and flow (no human intervention needed or required), no wi-fi nonsense (you set a water heater's temp and forget it, that's why all fixtures have cold water to blend with), 7 year leak, 3 year failure warranty, same height, 5" wider, and 5" slimmer (projection) and the conductivity of the water doesn't matter in the least.
If a human reduces the amp draw via the phone app, depending on flow rate, it may never reach the desired temp.
If the graphite heating elements are in the water flow (as the literature would seem to indicate), there is this thing called mechanical erosion based on water flow.
And as to it's claim to "purer hot water", well it doesn't clean the water, so whatever goes in comes out the same (hopefully with no added graphite)

This looks (to me) like a product designed by millennials, just to be different and to be able to use a phone app with it.
I don't understand your choice
What did you see in it that I don't see ??

I'm right behind you here. Any appliance that has a phone app is by default a marketing vehicle in my book. Dump the foolish crap and produce a solid reliable product.
I find the method of heating to be very interesting, but I can't find any information on code approval.

 

[Micrornd]

I can't find any information on code approval

My biggest concern is that they don't show internals (that I have found).
How are they preventing the possible formation of a carbon arc? (and it's potential burn-through or electrification of the water piping)
100 amps into a graphite rod can easily weld 1/2" plate steel.
(For anyone unfamiliar with carbon arc welding or gouging , please use google)
This unit scares me as to it's possible potential for disaster and the lack of physical design information doesn't help allay any fears.

Neither does their misinterpretation of NEC codes. They indicate (in their installation and operating manual) that the unit may be installed with wiring that is only adequate for what the unit is set to. (The unit may be set (via the so easy to use phone app) to draw 35-100amps @240vac).
All jurisdictions I have ever run into always interpret the NEC code (as do I) to say that the wiring must be sized for the maximum draw of the unit.
If they make that kind of mistake with the wiring, well what other mistakes are they.

A quick look at the Model 3 Quick Starter page updates (https://www.kickstarter.com/project...lectric-water-heater-and-mobile/posts/2622394) and comments (https://www.kickstarter.com/project...ess-electric-water-heater-and-mobile/comments) also produces a lot of doubt.

And, although it has received numerous awards and commendations as a "new product", when you actually look and read the awards, they all use the verbiage blatantly copied from the Heatworks' press releases, since non actually had a working model to examine or test.
But then again, that is just a comment on today's society, if it's new and shiny and has an "app" for your phone, it's better than any existing product without needing to be tested before giving it an award.

And, yes, I am a cynic and have taken up far too much of this thread.

So has anyone seen any new folding tomato plant trellis products ?

 

[Greenman]

My biggest concern is that they don't show internals (that I have found).
How are they preventing the possible formation of a carbon arc? (and it's potential burn-through or electrification of the water piping)
100 amps into a graphite rod can easily weld 1/2" plate steel.
(For anyone unfamiliar with carbon arc welding or gouging , please use google)
This unit scares me as to it's possible potential for disaster and the lack of physical design information doesn't help allay any fears.

Neither does their misinterpretation of NEC codes. They indicate (in their installation and operating manual) that the unit may be installed with wiring that is only adequate for what the unit is set to. (The unit may be set (via the so easy to use phone app) to draw 35-100amps @240vac).
All jurisdictions I have ever run into always interpret the NEC code (as do I) to say that the wiring must be sized for the maximum draw of the unit.
If they make that kind of mistake with the wiring, well what other mistakes are they.

A quick look at the Model 3 Quick Starter page updates (https://www.kickstarter.com/project...lectric-water-heater-and-mobile/posts/2622394) and comments (https://www.kickstarter.com/project...ess-electric-water-heater-and-mobile/comments) also produces a lot of doubt.

And, although it has received numerous awards and commendations as a "new product", when you actually look and read the awards, they all use the verbiage blatantly copied from the Heatworks' press releases, since non actually had a working model to examine or test.
But then again, that is just a comment on today's society, if it's new and shiny and has an "app" for your phone, it's better than any existing product without needing to be tested before giving it an award.

And, yes, I am a cynic and have taken up far too much of this thread.

So has anyone seen any new folding tomato plant trellis products ?

When dealing with 100 amps of power being dumped into an electrical circuit completed by the domestic water supply in a home, you goddamn well better be sceptical. The UL listing helps, the apparent lack of a UPC shield on the product will make it useable in the market where I work.