Missouri Police Officer guns down unarmed 18 year old

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FerrelGeek

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2009
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My point was the criminal justice systems affords more of a leeway to Wilson as opposed to Brown. I wish people would have more concern for equal treatment under the law.

The so called mobs are only calling for an indictment, not prison.

And what if the grand jury reviews all evidence and concludes that said evidence is insufficient to warrant an indictment?

What if they do indict him and he goes to trial? Will the same mob mentality hold when it's time for the jury to deliberate? Find him guilty or we riot?

As a society, we can't devolve to the level where we placate mob mentality.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
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The grand jury is meeting again today, I have to wonder if there will be a decision today now that the Missouri National Guard has been activated and in place in Ferguson.

I'm guessing the grand jury is feeling tremendous pressure to indict, no matter what the evidence in the case says. They know the spotlight is on this, and they know the consequences of not handing down an indictment.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
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Based on my time on a jury I'm guessing they're not as affected as you think. I suspect they're more concerned with insuring that their decision is based on the evidence and not wrongfully indicting a person.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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I'm guessing the grand jury is feeling tremendous pressure to indict, no matter what the evidence in the case says. They know the spotlight is on this, and they know the consequences of not handing down an indictment.

IMIO - The reason this is taking so long they are trying the case not having a probable cause hearing.

No way in hell it takes this long. I was recently a juror in a 2x murder trial. It took us 1 day shy of 4 weeks. Remember this was the actual trial.

The bar for grand jury to indict is much lower then the actual trial.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
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IMIO - The reason this is taking so long they are trying the case not having a probable cause hearing.

No way in hell it takes this long. I was recently a juror in a 2x murder trial. It took us 1 day shy of 4 weeks. Remember this was the actual trial.

The bar for grand jury to indict is much lower then the actual trial.

So did you serve 5 days a week or 1 day a week? This grand jury meets every Wednesday.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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So did you serve 5 days a week or 1 day a week? This grand jury meets every Wednesday.

Not only that but they all know that everyone is going to go through their decision, including Obama via the DOJ. Every "leader" who has been stirring up trouble in advance of this decision is going to cry "racist". Hell, the mother even got to address the UN, shortly after attacking the mother-in-law for selling t-shirts as if she had a natural right to do so. Violence has been an inherent part of this and I see no reason why it won't continue. Justifications aplenty will follow.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
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Well, I agree it says quite a lot about Brown at that particular moment in time, likely including when he had his run-in with Brown. I think though that this has been vastly overplayed. Lots of people have done things which are stupid and even evil when high. The totality of a person is not one afternoon, and while I'm not at all buying the witness' story that Brown was ministering to his soul and merely took a short break to rob a convenience store before returning, neither do I think this necessarily makes Brown a thug. It says something about Brown; it does not say everything about Brown.

Normally I'd agree, but it has been born out time and time again that people don't just do major "thuggish" crime out of the blue like how he did it.

By thuggish, the term of thug is a person that uses physical violence or threat thereof as coercion to get what they want.

Smoking some weed? That's small stuff. Had he simply tried to swipe something at the store when he thought no one was looking is small stuff too.

But he went in there intentionally to use physical violence to take those cigars by force. By rule, no one does that out of the blue. Here are the process steps that will cause a person to do something like that by rule.

1) They have worked up to that level of criminal action by a escalating pattern of criminal activity. Even pure sociopaths have an escalation pattern in testing how far they can push boundaries to see what they can get away with before pushing for more.

2) They are on some hard narcotics that have completely blown away their judgement and inhibition (weed doesn't do this)

3) They had a negative life altering event recently. A death of a loved one would be an example of this or the loss of a job the person had been doing for a long time and loved. Those aren't the only two examples though.

4) They had a psychotic break or snap. Again there would be a pattern leading up that event of psychotic episodes

5) Massive peer pressure where the person was forced by other worse criminals through some level of coercion to do the crime. The person committing the crime because they are forced to do so tends to show in their actions and voice at the time clues that it is something they don't really want to be doing.

That's all proven stuff. Micheal Brown doesn't fit the pattern for anything but number 1 based on the video and what was reported at the time of his robbery. It doesn't look like he's having a psychotic break, or under some the influence of some hard narcotics. He doesn't look to be pressured into doing what he is doing either, which if that was the case the ones pressuring him would have been waiting for him to exit the store. He wouldn't have gone off with just his friend to jaywalk for the hell of it down the middle of the street nearby.

He didn't have any major negative life altering events that would lead to this behavior.

By the video he looked comfortable in his actions and what he was doing. There was no hesitation in his actions. He did everything in full view of cameras as well as witnesses in broad daylight, and knew he was doing so. A person doesn't do those things unless they are confident they will get away with their actions. It wasn't a smash and grab either. He went in, grabbed what he wanted, and strode purposefully out of that store without hesitation nor remorse. That can all be plainly seen in his actions and demeanor.

Again, a person doesn't just do that out of the blue at all. His actions in that store bespoke of a thug that had done similar things before and gotten away with it.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,764
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So did you serve 5 days a week or 1 day a week? This grand jury meets every Wednesday.

4-5. Again remember probable cause bar is low. They are not supposed to argue merits of case just decide is there enough evidence to let others argue. This should have been over in a few weeks.

Hell, our deliberation only took 7 hours.
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
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You have to be one of the most monumentally stupid people to post on this forum.

The things you say, if anything more than abject trolling, are so woefully ignorant and wrong-headed I truly feel sorry for you.

You are as big a punch line on these forum as McOwned. That's really saying something.

Sulaco,

Why don't you go down to Ferguson and ask the black protestors what they would be satisfied with. It is my understanding that they will settle for nothing less than the arrest, trial and conviction of Wilson. This is not a few random malcontents.... this is an entire fucking community.

You don't like my suggestion? How about this, have a grand jury composed of individuals taken from the pool of protestors rather than white surbanites. There will be no justice here because whites see justice completely different than blacks in this case. Either the whites or the blacks are going to get screwed in this case. The consequences to society if the blacks get screwed are downright terrifying. They sound like they are more than willing to burn the entire city to the ground.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,764
28,977
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And what if the grand jury reviews all evidence and concludes that said evidence is insufficient to warrant an indictment?

What if they do indict him and he goes to trial? Will the same mob mentality hold when it's time for the jury to deliberate? Find him guilty or we riot?

As a society, we can't devolve to the level where we placate mob mentality.

I'll answer you question with a request. Show me riot articles/pictures after the Zimmerman trial.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
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londojowo.hypermart.net
4-5. Again remember probable cause bar is low. They are not supposed to argue merits of case just decide is there enough evidence to let others argue. This should have been over in a few weeks.

Hell, our deliberation only took 7 hours.

Was there DOJ or State Government personnel involved in the case you were hearing? You can bet they're listening to every potential witness/reviewing evidence.

Yes, probable cause is low but there still has to be evidence and/or witness statements that back up that probable cause. As was seen in the Zimmerman trial there was nothing that backed up the probable cause affidavit.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,764
28,977
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Was there DOJ or State Government personnel involved in the case you were hearing? You can bet they're listening to every potential witness/reviewing evidence.

Yes, probable cause is low but there still has to be evidence and/or witness statements that back up that probable cause. As was seen in the Zimmerman trial there was nothing that backed up the probable cause affidavit.

We know there were upwards of a dozen witnesses who at the time of shooting either said or gestured "his hands were up". If there witnesses who said the opposite a trial can flush this out.

My case was handled by the county. Grand jury deliberations are secret so DOJ would not be listening.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
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I'll answer you question with a request. Show me riot articles/pictures after the Zimmerman trial.

There were no violent riots, looting, burning, prior to the Zimmerman trial. There was a lot of harassment by some, remember the "leaking" of what turned out to be an incorrect address for Zimmerman? All the phone message harassments that even people with a number a single digit off from Zim's received?

The point is, those actively against Zimmerman before the verdict were not persuaded in the least by the trial's decision. The decision only amplified the beliefs.

Same thing will happen in Ferguson, any decision will not change the beliefs in people. They rioted prior to the grand jury, they most likely will riot after their decision.
 

WackyDan

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
4,794
68
91
I'm guessing the grand jury is feeling tremendous pressure to indict, no matter what the evidence in the case says. They know the spotlight is on this, and they know the consequences of not handing down an indictment.

If they let that affect their judgement then they shouldn't be on a jury to begin with. There is a reason that members of a grand jury are anonymous and take an oath of silence so to speak before serving on one...That reason is so they are not tampered with and that they can come to their conclusions without fear of retribution from those with vested interest in the case.

They also sit for a period of months. They handle multiple cases during that period of time and if they weren't above board with their prior decisions they wouldn't be sitting on the grand jury in this case.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,764
28,977
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Show me riot pictures, looting, burning, prior to the Zimmerman trial.

The point is, those actively against Zimmerman before the verdict were not persuaded in the least by the trial's decision. The decision only amplified the beliefs.

Same thing will happen in Ferguson, any decision will not change the beliefs in people. They rioted prior to the grand jury, they most likely will riot after their decision.

There was very little. I seem to recall a police car being banged up.

Much more damage following surf tournament in CA, like 100-1.

There were minds that remained unchanged either pro or anti Zimmerman
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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Sulaco,

Why don't you go down to Ferguson and ask the black protestors what they would be satisfied with. It is my understanding that they will settle for nothing less than the arrest, trial and conviction of Wilson. This is not a few random malcontents.... this is an entire fucking community.

You don't like my suggestion? How about this, have a grand jury composed of individuals taken from the pool of protestors rather than white surbanites. There will be no justice here because whites see justice completely different than blacks in this case. Either the whites or the blacks are going to get screwed in this case. The consequences to society if the blacks get screwed are downright terrifying. They sound like they are more than willing to burn the entire city to the ground.

How about this? No. If Ferguson does get burned down to the ground then maybe someone will say "that's enough". Perhaps there's a compromise, assuming you are white. If Wilson is not indited perhaps you could offer yourself as a sacrifice as an appeasement. Think of the violence you could prevent.
 

WackyDan

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
4,794
68
91
Sulaco,

Why don't you go down to Ferguson and ask the black protestors what they would be satisfied with. It is my understanding that they will settle for nothing less than the arrest, trial and conviction of Wilson. This is not a few random malcontents.... this is an entire fucking community.

You don't like my suggestion? How about this, have a grand jury composed of individuals taken from the pool of protestors rather than white surbanites. There will be no justice here because whites see justice completely different than blacks in this case. Either the whites or the blacks are going to get screwed in this case. The consequences to society if the blacks get screwed are downright terrifying. They sound like they are more than willing to burn the entire city to the ground.

That doesn't justify unjust consequences for Darren Wilson if he is indicted strictly on the perceived need to pacify the public in Fergusen. The grand jury is not all white and has minority participants - Any fool should be able to understand that and accept their decision. Unlike trials, grand juries are sworn to secrecy - they can not talk about it, they can not out themselves to the media. They have no reason to not do their job to the letter of the law given the evidence presented to them.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
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On the thought that the grand jury is conducting the trial...

Let's look at the bigger picture. The Zimmerman trial lasted five weeks at a cost of $902,000 to the public. Let's assume similar costs here.

That's $902,000 of public money lining the pockets of rich advantageous lawyers, and $902,000 of public money not going towards improving the community, bettering the lives of the poor and needy in the Ferguson community.

This trial will be inherently racist and on those grounds should not commence :p
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
How about this? No. If Ferguson does get burned down to the ground then maybe someone will say "that's enough". Perhaps there's a compromise, assuming you are white. If Wilson is not indited perhaps you could offer yourself as a sacrifice as an appeasement. Think of the violence you could prevent.

LoL. Why would I do that? I'm no martyr and I am terrified of going to jail. In any event these people aren't looking for a random white guy. They want the white guy who shot the perp.

For the record, from all of the information available I believe the shoot was more likely to be legit than not legit.... but of course I am white, if I was black my opinion would probably be different.
 
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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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That doesn't justify unjust consequences for Darren Wilson if he is indicted strictly on the perceived need to pacify the public in Fergusen. The grand jury is not all white and has minority participants - Any fool should be able to understand that and accept their decision. Unlike trials, grand juries are sworn to secrecy - they can not talk about it, they can not out themselves to the media. They have no reason to not do their job to the letter of the law given the evidence presented to them.

His argument is that they should indict him regardless, then a sham trial to find him guilty so he goes to jail so that blacks will have justice. That's pretty racist. Blacks are inherently morally inferior and prone to riot loot and potentially kill if they don't get what they want. They can't help it so whitey better obey.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,764
28,977
136
On the thought that the grand jury is conducting the trial...

Let's look at the bigger picture. The Zimmerman trial lasted five weeks at a cost of $902,000 to the public. Let's assume similar costs here.

That's $902,000 of public money lining the pockets of rich advantageous lawyers, and $902,000 of public money not going towards improving the community, bettering the lives of the poor and needy in the Ferguson community.

This trial will be inherently racist and on those grounds should not commence :p

Where the hell they get 902K? I thought prosecutors already being paid by state?

I don't think that's new money.
 

WackyDan

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
4,794
68
91
LoL. Why would I do that? I'm no martyr and I am terrified of going to jail. In any event these people aren't looking for a random white guy. They want the white guy who shot the perp. For the record, from all of the information available I believe the shoot was more likely to be legit than not legit.... but of course I am white, if I was black my opinion would probably be different.

Yet during the Zimmerman affair their were multiple attacks on whites in the name of Trayvon including a murder.

There have already been attacks on whites in Ferguson by protesters for being in the wrong place at the wrong time - even when those whites were there to protest with them.

So they may want the head of Darren Wilson, but make no mistake - They are occasionally taking their outrage out on others.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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LoL. Why would I do that? I'm no martyr and I am terrified of going to jail. In any event these people aren't looking for a random white guy. They want the white guy who shot the perp. For the record, from all of the information available I believe the shoot was more likely to be legit than not legit.... but of course I am white, if I was black my opinion would probably be different.

Why should you do that? You shouldn't and you shouldn't expect anyone else to be a martyr either. If a rioter came into your home regardless of race would you watch as they beat your family and cower in the corner, or would that be just if the perp was black? I'll would not. At that point their life is forfeit and I would not hesitate and look at their skin color. I'm betting you would hide and watch.