Minorities strike again

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irwincur

Golden Member
Jul 8, 2002
1,899
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PS You don't even realize the inherent racism in your story, do you zendari?

You missed the sexism...

This is the problem with racism. If you mention race at all - and relate it to a real world story, you must be racist.

No point in talking about it if it makes you racist. I happen to have experienced about the same exact thing, twice. Do my experiences make me racist? Is it my fault that two of my black female professors in the past never bothered to put in a serious attempt at working? No. Is it the fault of the general black population? No. Is it the fault of poor hiring standards and affirmative action? Probably.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
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PS Keep the "Hmmm.. response? No?" crap. I'll get around to exploding your myths in my own good time. No rush. If I leave the computer for a while your ideas will still be just as wrong when I get back.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
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Originally posted by: irwincur
PS You don't even realize the inherent racism in your story, do you zendari?

You missed the sexism...

This is the problem with racism. If you mention race at all - and relate it to a real world story, you must be racist.

No point in talking about it if it makes you racist. I happen to have experienced about the same exact thing, twice. Do my experiences make me racist? Is it my fault that two of my black female professors in the past never bothered to put in a serious attempt at working? No. Is it the fault of the general black population? No. Is it the fault of poor hiring standards and affirmative action? Probably.

You people are doing far more than just mentioning race.
 

zendari

Banned
May 27, 2005
6,558
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? Do you mind not speaking in cryptic messages Bbond? And if you don't mind asking, what race do you consider yourself?
 

homercles337

Diamond Member
Dec 29, 2004
6,340
3
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Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: Zebo
AA is not quotas BBOND. Beleive me I work with them frequently... Yes, you have to show you're making an effort to hire and recruit minorities, but quotas can only be ordered by a Federal Judge after suit is brought for blatent demonsatrated discrimmination, and if that succeeds are you forced to hire ratios.

It sounds like AA is a precursor to quotas.

AA is more of a sliding scale, than quotas. You wont find a single academic that sees AA as a quota system beneficial.
 

g8wayrebel

Senior member
Nov 15, 2004
694
0
0
Originally posted by: ExpertNovice
Originally posted by: homercles337
Originally posted by: classy
Why is it when all the filth crawl from under a rock on a subject like this, the implication is somehow the minority is either unskilled, unqualified, or undeserving?

Its usually because the filth is racist.


Rudeness abounds from the absurd... or is that Absurdities abound from the rude?

Homer, if the OP comment is correct then "5 year guarantee of funds and training to minorities to get them more of the contracts for state construction jobs" is what is being addressed. If true then it is those passing such racist laws that are saying minorities are not as capable.

The conservative parties (unfortunately not all conservatives) consider everyone equal.

g8wayrebel, You provided no link Why? Sorry, but making a statement is not proof that such a racist action has been taken. I did a quick couple of googles and did found nothing. Probably a bad search. I searched for "Illinois 5 year guarantee of funds and training" and "Illinois bid"



My apologies for no link. I will do my homework on this ,and in the future. I had just finished watching the officials of Illinois expound on the news about the plan as it was negotiated when I posted this. Link to follow

I didn't find a link , but here's the condensed version from local news site:


BREAKTHROUGH IN HIRING OF MINORITIES FOR STATE JOBS

After struggling for more than a decade, there appears to be a breakthrough in the hiring of minority contractors for state jobs in the metro east. IDOT agreed to a $2 million contract to help train minority workers and contractors to qualify them for state jobs. IDOT agreed to fund the training to the tune of $400,000 a year over the next five years. That word came after both sides met behind locked doors for over two hours Tuesday afternoon. Illinois Transportation Secretary Tim Martin led the state committee while the Metro East Black Contractors Association was fronted by civil rights activist Eric Vickers. The agreement is expected to be finalized during a similar meeting scheduled for June 28th and it averts the threats of a highway shutdown. It was the federal justice department that brought both sides together. They had representatives here from Kansas City and Chicago. Martin says finding a site for a training facility is all ready underway. Vickers called the agreement unprecedented. State Representative Young of East St. Louis will help oversee the progress of IDOT to fulfill the promises they voiced on Tuesday. Tim Martin says he hopes what is unfolding here will become a model for the entire country.


I don't care what anyone says, there should be no Metro East Black Contractors Association. That alone is an issue. It is time to stop being black and be American. The blackness sure as hell will never be overlooked by even the most tolerant and accepting when it is the first thing thrown in your face everday.I made the statement today to a fellow employee that he,being black, would be the first one to get something(ie. promotion, better job situation , better vehicle) over me , but at the same time he would also be the first one to be fired. All races have problems and bad people , but all races don't treat each other wholly the way that blacks treat each other. Success in the world is not accepted by the majority of black people in any city I've been in. That would be every major city in ths country by the way. I know... go ahead and flame me.They may say minority , but I'm saying Black. That is another problem in this country. You say "minority" when it comes top doing something or giving something and you may as well say black. That is just another one of the idiosyncrasies of this country. You can say brother all day and mean the same thing as "N" , but don't say that word or you are racist. You can say minority, while looking at a room full of black lobbyists for the cause , but if you say blacks you are racist. Everyone in this country knows what the problems are, but no one wants to be the one to say so. There are many subjects in politics that are absolutely taboo unless you want to commit political suicide , but these are the very things that need to be addressed. If everyone stopped worrying about offending someone and said what they know to be true , the issues might actually get addressed and the people who actually need the help might then be able to get it.
 

Scarpozzi

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
26,392
1,780
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Bah....I just say let them make their requirements...the low price will always win.
 

g8wayrebel

Senior member
Nov 15, 2004
694
0
0
Originally posted by: piasabird
I think the Pay for the Job should be compenserate to the training required for the job skill. It takes in most cases a Masters Degree to teach in a University. Department heads often have a Doctorate in their teaching discipline. These are standards even for a Community College.

I live in the St Louis Metro East area in Illinois.

When talking about contracts granted in the public sector for work to be paid for by the government locally, by the State, or by the Federal Government. Presecence is often given for Minority Owned cotractors and firms. The problem is many jobs are given to large construction companies that may even be from out of state. Often a preference is given to Union employers because of the Union Training and education programs for skilled construction labor, and the level of expertise you get from people who have completed a union run apprenticeship program. Working with Concrete and Asphalt and building structurally sound overpasses and bridges requires some skill and training.

The problem you might say is that not all construction companies have many African American Employees. So it is up to government entitees to require these companies to accept local Minorities into the various trades apprenticeship programs. Next time you go by a construction crew see how many minorities are laying cement and asphalt or as a carpenter, bricklayer or plumber or even an electrician. Some places may have minorities in skilled labor positions and some may not. Having a Black guy holding up the caution sign is not skilled labor. I am talking about the people doing the real skilled labor like finishing the cement, welding wrought iron, or some other skilled job. Nothing wrong with the guys or gals that hold those signs, because their job is important too.

So often Minority contracors can be used in construction support jobs to help compensate for the lack of minorities in construction jobs. The only Femaly Instructor in IT at Washington University I have met is a Black Woman that runs a Minority IT Development firm in St Louis, MO. At least she is the only female I have met that teaches IT at Washington, University. She told me herself and her husband often do contracts for different government entities in the St Louis, MO Area. This is just an example of a Minority Firm but there are other minority firms here and there. However, they are fighting an up-hill battle against the Good-Ole-Boy contracting network.

Even after all this is said, I dont agree with the kind of stunt these people pulled in St Louis. They should have just pushed their cars off the bridge and brought on the fire hoses and billy clubs. If you break the law you should have to go to jail, not get bond the next day. They should have held them all for the full 72 hours allowed by law and given them all at least an immediate 30 day jail sentence for disturbing the peace.

St Louis is a wonderful place because the city is just about as corrupt as Chicago. During one election two African Americans were running for office and they argued about who was the real black candidate and who was the white man in disguise. Kind of odd to make a statement like "You are just not black enought to be mayor." All this has happened in St Louis, MO. You gotta love it.





You make my point perfectly. Why must the government "make" a company accept minorities. Are there no minorities with the skills to teach them. Are there no minorities with the money to fund them? Many of us are direct decendents of minorities in this country. We had to make our own way. Why can't these groups you refer to now?
I live in South St Louis. It's a pretty rough area in which to live. .I have seen camobdians laotians koreans vietnamese irish russians kurds romanians italians chinese japanese africans mexicans guatamalans...etc come here get a job,set up a support network and assist others in coming here. They support eachothers businesses, neighborhood, and families. In doing so , they allow thier childern to integrate relatively easily into society. Why can't the people who are already here do so as well? I am not a bigot , but a realist. I only see one group that on the whole doesn't attempt to integrate into society.That is a choice. Being a choice, in my mind ,makes it totally unacceptable and rids me of all pity. They fail to take advantage of the education system ,and therfore fail to be able to get further education and succeed. The problem isn't my views or efforts , but someone else lack of effort or ability to persevere. Any one who knows me would tell you I'd give you anything I could to help you if you try to help yourself. I wouldn't give my mother a dime if she was just going to lay around and bitch about how things are. This world owes no one anything. If you want something you have to go after it yourself.
 

homercles337

Diamond Member
Dec 29, 2004
6,340
3
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Originally posted by: g8wayrebel
You make my point perfectly. Why must the government "make" a company accept minorities. Are there no minorities with the skills to teach them. Are there no minorities with the money to fund them? Many of us are direct decendents of minorities in this country.

...snip, had to remove anecdotal evidnce.

No minority (im assuming you are claiming to be one) in the US would EVER claim this. If you really feel this way im sorry for your brain tumor. >70% of the US is white, >90% of the wealth is controlled by <5% of the population. Should i do the math on this one since you are probably incapable of doing so?

BTW, i hope this post goes through since my last two posts have gone the way of internet oblivion for two reasons.
 

g8wayrebel

Senior member
Nov 15, 2004
694
0
0
No , I'm not a minority. I am as american as you. German/ Irish as a matter of fact.
My point is that the people who get the contracts now started out with an education and a hammer the same as I must. Why isn't that good enough for everyone? If you have the tools and the training to do the job , bid it. If you don't ,go back to school or buy more tools. We shouldn't have to provide for someone elses success in this country.


Scarpozzi,
While I agree that the low price will win(that is the idea) I also point out that the winner will be forced to take on less skilled staff to accommodate PC. I work with dozens of paycheck collectors everyday who have come to obtain the jobs they have through the same thought process. It is wrong!!!! An employeer should be able to hire the most skilled and best educated people he can. Not use lowwereed standards or give pepople jobs to accomodate the politically correct ideaas of others.
 

ahurtt

Diamond Member
Feb 1, 2001
4,283
0
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Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: ahurtt

I don't object to taking action to ammend the bad things that happened in the past. But you don't do that by punishing people today who did not exist at the time those wrongs were perpetrated. You simply stop the bad thing that is happening and move on. What happened in the past is gone. Remember it so it doesn't happen again and just move on already. The best thing you can do to make ammends is just stop the wrong and start doing it right from now on. Not some "gee we're really sorry, here's a cookie for you" program like affirmative action. If the only way to make ammends is unfair to people who did not exist when the injustice was done, then it is better to just put it behind you and move on. People have this silly notion of entitlement. . .the world doesn't owe you anything. And unless I personally did something against you or borrowed something from you, then neither do I.

You have to do something to remdiate the wrongs of the past or you perpetuate them. The people who always got and still get the contracts have one hell of a head start after a few hundred years of their own form of "affirmative action". Don't you think?

Yes but you have to find a solution that doesn't penalize a different group of people for the next few hundred years who had nothing to do with the last few hundred years. I don't know anybody that old. If you want to not perpetuate the problems of the past, then stop doing them, and just remember them so they don't happen again. I am of my father and his father before him and so on, but I am not them.
 

ExpertNovice

Senior member
Mar 4, 2005
939
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Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: ExpertNovice
Originally posted by: homercles337
Originally posted by: BBond
No one seems to remember when "affirmative action" meant all the work went to whites.

Or all the college degrees, all the wealth, or all the everything... :confused:

Liberals occupy a high percentage of teaching positions and boards. From the elementary level through graduate schools.

Given their stated attitudes on socialism and equal pay. How come the school caretakers (maintenance, grounds keeper, etc.) don't make as much money as the professors and board members? Shouldn't they be leading us by example to an "enlightened" state?

Do you have ANY data to back up your assertions?

Or should we just take your word for it?


Sure, I will be glad to do some of your research for you.

http://www.galtglobalreview.com/education/university_pay.html
Top professors at private institutions, such as Harvard, can be rewarded with salaries as much as $200,000 or more.

Your turn. Show me that the individuals maintaining the plumbing and power and those removing refuse from the premises, all equally important jobs in the grandest of Marxist ideology, are also making as much as $200,000.

Once you have done so I will quit my job and gladly work for such a fine institution. :)
 

ExpertNovice

Senior member
Mar 4, 2005
939
0
0
Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: ExpertNovice

Liberals occupy a high percentage of teaching positions and boards. From the elementary level through graduate schools.

Given their stated attitudes on socialism and equal pay. How come the school caretakers (maintenance, grounds keeper, etc.) don't make as much money as the professors and board members? Shouldn't they be leading us by example to an "enlightened" state?

Do you have ANY data to back up your assertions?

Or should we just take your word for it?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8427-2005Mar28.html

Hmmm.. response? No?



ROFL. I don't live on these boards. Did you do any research to even see if I was correct or did you just say, he sounds conservative and I don't like conservatives so he must be wrong?

hehe
 

beyoku

Golden Member
Aug 20, 2003
1,568
1
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This just in, Prineton U just did a study with a bout 3500 individual test...... that came to the conclusion that a Black person with no criminal record is on par with a white person that has a felony. They basically when to 3500 business and filled out applications....getting the bulk of data based on call backs. You probably cant even believe this.
 

cKGunslinger

Lifer
Nov 29, 1999
16,408
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Originally posted by: ExpertNovice
Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: ExpertNovice

Liberals occupy a high percentage of teaching positions and boards. From the elementary level through graduate schools.

Given their stated attitudes on socialism and equal pay. How come the school caretakers (maintenance, grounds keeper, etc.) don't make as much money as the professors and board members? Shouldn't they be leading us by example to an "enlightened" state?

Do you have ANY data to back up your assertions?

Or should we just take your word for it?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8427-2005Mar28.html

Hmmm.. response? No?

ROFL. I don't live on these boards. Did you do any research to even see if I was correct or did you just say, he sounds conservative and I don't like conservatives so he must be wrong?

hehe

? :confused: Are you talking to me?

If so, try reading that again, following the nested quotes this time. ;)
 

cKGunslinger

Lifer
Nov 29, 1999
16,408
57
91
Originally posted by: beyoku
This just in, Prineton U just did a study with a bout 3500 individual test...... that came to the conclusion that a Black person with no criminal record is on par with a white person that has a felony. They basically when to 3500 business and filled out applications....getting the bulk of data based on call backs. You probably cant even believe this.

Only because I can't understand a thing you just said...
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
39,407
32,900
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Originally posted by: g8wayrebel
The state of llinois, after being threatened with having I-64 shut down, has now agreed to provide a 5 year guarantee of funds and training to minorities to get them more of the contracts for state construction jobs.Why do we have to pay for and include any particular group when the state already has a low bid protocol in the first place? If you don;t have the training or the tools, go to school and the hardware store , then bid for the job like everyone else. Haven't we dropped the standards ,to be inclusive, enough already in this country? Is it now a right to be included whether or not you have the skills or the intelligence to do the job?
WTF... wake up people...this is a farce

Rant over , Flame away!

I can actually answer this w/o flaming. Only comment: How many more of these tests/studies do we have to have with the same results before people wake up?
Another study on race and jobs
 

cKGunslinger

Lifer
Nov 29, 1999
16,408
57
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Originally posted by: beyoku
Im saying the conclusion, although unbelievable in this day, is still true.

No, I mean, literally, I didn't understand what you were saying in your post.
 

classy

Lifer
Oct 12, 1999
15,219
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Also like to add I am not sure if this is the same study, but there was another study where most of the applications with black sounding names were far more likely not to be called even though their resumes were exactly like those with white sounding names who were contacted. But I get into this all the time here, been called all kinds of bs, labeled a racist because I tell it like it is and don't bow down and say masta, but its ok. This study is one of many that show we still live in a lopsided world. But the many jack@sses on this board will trash the blacks, talk about Jesse Jackson and the like so called black leaders, and programs like AA, they'll do all of that rather than address the real situation that them and their pals continue to discriminate. Those who want an equal playing field should stop being prejudice. That's the real nitty gritty. While blacks need to take more responsibility, it is ridiculous for anyone say just work hard and it will all work out for you like the white guy. That's just not totally true. Its getting better, but we still got a long ways to go.

 

cKGunslinger

Lifer
Nov 29, 1999
16,408
57
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Originally posted by: classy
Also like to add I am not sure if this is the same study, but there was another study where most of the applications with black sounding names were far more likely not to be called even though their resumes were exactly like those with white sounding names who were contacted. But I get into this all the time here, been called all kinds of bs, labeled a racist because I tell it like it is and don't bow down and say masta, but its ok. This study is one of many that show we still live in a lopsided world. But the many jack@sses on this board will trash the blacks, talk about Jesse Jackson and the like so called black leaders, and programs like AA, they'll do all of that rather than address the real situation that them and their pals continue to discriminate. Those who want an equal playing field should stop being prejudice. That's the real nitty gritty. While blacks need to take more responsibility, it is ridiculous for anyone say just work hard and it will all work out for you like the white guy. That's just not totally true. Its getting better, but we still got a long ways to go.
No, you are often labeled a racist because you keep spouting of crap like I highlighted in your above post. No one here is 'trashing the blacks.' :roll: You don't care to "equalize" anything, you want to be thought of as the 'brave black man' who's not afraid to stick it to the oppressive white man. You have delusions of grandeur, coupled with an inferiority complex, which makes you one of the least-qualified spokesperson for any issue on racial equality.

 

g8wayrebel

Senior member
Nov 15, 2004
694
0
0
I can site some examples from my past that make me feel the way I do. I would like you to address them and you tell me how I should feel differently classy.
In the first , I was a trainer for an OTR company. The student I had at the time was from Louisville Kentucky. While near his home and during the running of the Derby , he asked to swing by to see what was going on at his "crib". He stated that he had a house full of people in town working and staying at his house. As it turns out , they were all using his house as a hang while they went out and stole other peoples stuff. He and I got into a heated argument because he couldn't see the difference between "working" and stealing others property. In his mind that was "working" because that is how the people made a living. Example number two would involve another student. I can't go into the details that brought up the conversation , but it came down to a racial argument ending with this question and answer:
If you had a business and needed labor , would you go out on the street and hire the first 100 people you met in my neighborhood.
Answer: Yes
Would you go out in the street and hire the first 100 people you came to in your neighborhood.
Answer:" F^^K no! Them ni$$ers would rob me blind." Needless to say , he was black.
The point is that you know what the story is as well as everyone else does, You just don't want to admit it. I know hundreds of black people that would be welcome in my home at any time. I also know that they, by choice or not,relative or friend, associate with many others that they wouldn't even want to know where you live if you have anything worth having that can be gotten to.I have had them blow me off because they didn't want the person or people with them to come to my house. I can take you to a location in St Louis right now where the Man in the house is a cop and the Woman is a Sherrif, both black. They have to have a family member arrested several times a year when they have functions because they come in to the neighborhood to the families house and don't even have the decency to respect them enough to take the criminal activity back to where they came from. They have had family arrested for robbery . car theft , and in one case distribution on the same block on which they lived while visiting from out of the area.
It is typical to see a movie where the Grandma is telling ten year old boys to quit casing a car or other such activity. No I don't believe everything I see on TV , but the truth is the truth and in the case of blacks , the numbers don't lie...not the governments numbers , but the ones I see everyday. It is up to you to change the perception of yourselves. If you can honestly tell me right now that you live in an urban area in the US and don't know a number of people who make a living dealing ,stealing, or conning , I would be tremendously impressed. Hell, anymore they flash it in your face. You "the black citizen" live in fear of retribution for being "involved" in the prosecution of thes people which is the very thing that you must do in order to get respect. You must be the ones to change things , not the rest of the world. As my SIG says , you command respect not demand it. You (unfortunately this refers to a race , not an individual in this case) have to earn a better opinion by dealing with the issues or deal with the consequences of silence. As it is now , the black "nation" is opressed , both physically by fear , and financially by political choice. Change starts with you. I for one judge each and every individual for themselves , but I also have to consider who I may have to deal with by association before finalizing an opinion in certain situations where a business or personal commitment may be involved. This is a civil society , and it's about time the "black nation" makes a conscious effort to join it. I don't believe that has ever been an objective.
 

beyoku

Golden Member
Aug 20, 2003
1,568
1
71
NO, The US Govt shoud FORCE those jobs. It was the Us GOVT through institutionalized racism that created the problem in the first place. It was ILLEGAL for us to vote, buy land in certain plces, go to certain schools etc. Only the US Govt can fix the problem that it created in the first place. How can you even EXCUSE or COMMENT on a study that shows a black male, with NO criminal record, has an equal and in some times a lesser chance in getting a job than a white male with a FELONY,. This shiit is beyond pitiful, how can this be anyones fault other than the people who do the hiring? Maybe, just maybe, when things are EQUAL people will not be forced to hire minorites.

A black male with a Felony, really cant get a job, BUT white people would burn down the gates to the white house if he were give equal or greater chance than a white person with no criminal record because of AA.........and you know it. You guys have your AA, its built into the system, and its Racism, plain and simple. In this day give me a reason why this study can come to these conclusions and it be simply OK?
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Affirmitive action is a dilemma, kinda like rent control, regardless black students have been headed to black schools more now and minoritys are down in a lot of white schools.

The white students have better high schools and not the stigma of being black to deal with in a still racist country.

Axing it was not a good idea IMO. As previous poster pointed out the whites of this country made this problem.

A recent article about decline of minoritys in schools.

I am not so sure bringing it back in it's old form is the answer but tossing the idea away of reaching out a hand to underprividged americans away is pig-headed. And the whining from neocons in this country that helping make sure a balance is struck is racist in itself is nothing but more thinly veiled racist circular logic.

AA in some form is still nessasary,as racism in this country is alive and well.

just look at this forum.