Minnesota Moves Forward...

[fskimospy]

Apply that to heterosexuals if you're going to apply it to homosexuals. The behavior of getting married or even being in a monogamous relationship in general is a choice, too. Why is one ok and another not?

Look, can't you see how tolerant they are being? They accept that homosexuality is not a choice, but that behavior is. The obvious solution is simply to never have sex or an intimate relationship with anyone you're attracted to for your entire life, thereby living a life of celibacy and eventually dying alone.

What's so hard about that, really?

 

[MotF Bane]

Look, can't you see how tolerant they are being? They accept that homosexuality is not a choice, but that behavior is. The obvious solution is simply to never have sex or an intimate relationship with anyone you're attracted to for your entire life, thereby living a life of celibacy and eventually dying alone.

What's so hard about that, really?

An excellent plan. Then they avoid offending the delicate sensibilities of the sexually uptight puritans and the bigoted Christians, leaving the heterosexuals their sacred sacrament of misery and divorce.

:awe:

 

[classy]

Ah, I get it now. I was a little confused in the Chicago black firefighters thread, but now I see that classy is like a charicature of a black guy. He's for affirmative action, he's hyper-masculine, he thinks homosexuality is immoral and he's terribly insecure. Got it.

I am not hyper masculine. Why do people insist on thinking folks like me who don't support homosexuality are some how afraid or insecure about our own sexuality. Its foolish thinking. The lifestyles we accept do have an impact on us all. I have stated numerous times, that while I have my opinion on this subject, I don't believe my opinion is absolute. It is shaped by the way I see the world and life in general and so is everyone else's.

If we accept gay marriage as a society we have to accept all of it. It will no longer be a choice for couples such as me to show displeasure as to curriculum in school. The gay movement has already tried to force organizations like The Boy Scouts to accept leaders who are gay, despite the fact they believe in teaching young boys to grow up as men. To say that the sexuality of a man is not defined by who the man has sex with is completely hogwash.

Now some may say what is the problem we did the same thing for blacks and civil rights. But I contend there is no morality in a person's skin color or their ethinicity. The base argument always is well its not a choice. If your moral base believes in a certain sexual manner in which a person conducts themselves then it is a choice. Adultery is a sin, despite some will say they can't help it. And that argument runs deep for many different fronts.

I have a moral base where I believe certain things. I don't smoke and don't allow it in my house. I don't drink. I even filter the entire internet in my home so my kid doesn't view certain things. Does that mean she'll grow up perfect or won't be exposed to those things or even do those things? The answer is no. But as a parent it is still my job to teach her and provide the enviroment where she can learn those lessons that I believe will help her live the life I believe she ought to live. Then when she is old enough, then she will have to accept or reject those things where she sees fit.

I truly don't care what a person does in his or her own home. But if I give my support despite the fact it may violate my own conscience as to what I believe is right, then I am lying to myself. We are going through some things right now where a certain person has done something rather awful and is projecting a really bad image right now. I have refused this person to see my kid since this all happened. Why? If I don't filter who she has contact with, I can't complain when she turns around and does those same things.

We are influenced by what we see, hear, and experience. This is how we learn. So to say someone's sexuality can't be influenced by being those who engage in certain sexual activities is a lie. Our entire psychy is influenced by who we hang around. This is why messed up parents and homes turn out messed up kids. I believe in working with people no matter how they live their personal life. But I don't believe in adopting or allowing things I believe that are contrary to my moral center to run through my house like a parade either. Me and my wife have been married a long time. She still has not met some of my family because I know how they think. And because of that I don't want their negative influence projected on to her.

This is not just a decision on where to go for lunch. This is decision that will affect everyone on a personal basis on some level. But I refuse to buy this profound argument that a person's sexuality is not learned. And a person sexual appetities does majorly influence their personality. In short you can do what you want, but don't blame and crucify everyone else who doesn't agree. Being a prostitute or being in polygamous marriage really never hurt anyone outside of those engaged directly. But I don't wanna hang up posters and have a march supporting them either. I got a lot of flaws, but I do have resolve on certain things.

 

[fskimospy]

This is not just a decision on where to go for lunch. This is decision that will affect everyone on a personal basis on some level. But I refuse to buy this profound argument that a person's sexuality is not learned. And a person sexual appetities does majorly influence their personality. In short you can do what you want, but don't blame and crucify everyone else who doesn't agree. Being a prostitute or being in polygamous marriage really never hurt anyone outside of those engaged directly. But I don't wanna hang up posters and have a march supporting them either. I got a lot of flaws, but I do have resolve on certain things.

So when did you learn to be heterosexual?

 

[MotF Bane]

We are influenced by what we see, hear, and experience. This is how we learn. So to say someone's sexuality can't be influenced by being those who engage in certain sexual activities is a lie. Our entire psychy is influenced by who we hang around. This is why messed up parents and homes turn out messed up kids. I believe in working with people no matter how they live their personal life. But I don't believe in adopting or allowing things I believe that are contrary to my moral center to run through my house like a parade either. Me and my wife have been married a long time. She still has not met some of my family because I know how they think. And because of that I don't want their negative influence projected on to her.

So how do some homosexuals grow up in extremely religious communities and families?

 

[zsdersw]

So how do some homosexuals grow up in extremely religious communities and families?

And, for that matter, plenty of homosexual African-Americans and Hispanics.

 

[shira]

GOP logic...

Gay people getting married a threat to traditional marriage

Divorce/multiple wives....not so much

Yes, because if straight couples see successful same-sex marriages, it will make them feel bad that their own marriages suck. Gotta protect those heterosexual feelings.

 

[classy]

So when did you learn to be heterosexual?

For me I grew up with a father and uncles and quite frankly from the time I was little, I was always being taught how to interact with a woman.

So how do some homosexuals grow up in extremely religious communities and families?

And, for that matter, plenty of homosexual African-Americans and Hispanics.

Explain to me Anne heche and the thousands like her. There are gays in every culture. But there are less gays in the AA and Hispanic community than you'll find in the white community. Also my second cousin is gay, got a long time partner and all. Good guy too, just sweet, thats all, lol.

Here is the question you need to ask. If you believe society's culture can influence the way people live, then how can you not believe that society can influence a person's sexuality?

This is where I stand, probably in totality on life in general, there is not one aspect of any individual's life can't be influenced by their enviroment.

 

[fskimospy]

For me I grew up with a father and uncles and quite frankly from the time I was little, I was always being taught how to interact with a woman.

But why do you think that interactions with your father/uncle were what made you heterosexual? Do you remember a time where you thought about having sex with men instead but were taught that women were what you should want? You've said that sexuality is learned, so when did you learn it?

 

[classy]

I can give you an example of what I mean.

I had my first daughter at 19, so I was rather young. One of my close friends also had his first daughter at the same time. My girlfriend and his girlfriend met in the hospital and became good friends. Now he was up out of his daughter's life but I stayed in mine. His daughter became real resentful and as she got older she became rougher, tough persona. She had this attitude that she needed to protect herself. Well to make a long story short, she turned out gay. Now did she just develop that way or was her lack of a relationship with her real father a driving force. I shared custody with my daughter's mom. So I would have have her several weeks during the summer, holidays, and two weekends a month.

Now her friend would also want to come and I knew her dad wasn't spending time with her so I would bring her with me. But she became resentful and just grew to hate her dad because he wouldn't spend time with her. I specualte that out of that resentment she despised men and even came to the conclusion any contact , even intimate with a man was a waste of time. Now you may say that has nothing to do with it, but I beg to differ. So many of them will say somewhere in their past they got hurt really bad, or this is all they ever knew. My one friend who moved to Atlanta said he was in a homosexual relationships all his life. He will tell you thats all I knew. He said he was the only boy and had 7 sisters. He said he just grew up and wanted to be like them.

So............

 

[zsdersw]

Explain to me Anne heche and the thousands like her. There are gays in every culture. But there are less gays in the AA and Hispanic community than you'll find in the white community. Also my second cousin is gay, got a long time partner and all. Good guy too, just sweet, thats all, lol.

It's not hard to explain at all people like Anne Heche. Where is it defined or proven that human sexual orientation is binary? It's not.. because it isn't. It is also not binary in the rest of the animal kingdom, by the way.

Here is the question you need to ask. If you believe society's culture can influence the way people live, then how can you not believe that society can influence a person's sexuality?

This is where I stand, probably in totality on life in general, there is not one aspect of any individual's life can't be influenced by their enviroment.

Sexuality is innate. Sexual activity is a choice.. and is influenced by a lot of things. It's really not hard to understand. The thing of it is, though, why are heterosexuals allowed to choose to seek government recognition of their chosen relationships, but homosexuals are not?

 

[fskimospy]

I can give you an example of what I mean.

I had my first daughter at 19, so I was rather young. One of my close friends also had his first daughter at the same time. My girlfriend and his girlfriend met in the hospital and became good friends. Now he was up out of his daughter's life but I stayed in mine. His daughter became real resentful and as she got older she became rougher, tough persona. She had this attitude that she need ed to protect herself. Well to make a long story short, she turned out gay. Now did she just develop that way or was her lack of a relationship with her real father a driving force. I shared custody with my daughter mom. So I would have have her several weeks during the summer, holidays, and two weekends a month.

Now here friend would also want to come and I knew her dad wasn't spending time with her so I would bring her with me. But she became resentful and just grew to hate her dad because he wouldn't spend time with her. I specualte that out of that resentment she despised men and even came to the conclusion any contact , even intimate with a man was a waste of time. Now you may say that has nothing to do with it, but I beg to differ. So many of them will say somewhere in their past they got hurt really bad, or this is all they ever knew. My one friend who moved to Atlanta said he was in a homosexual relationships all his life. He will tell you thats all I knew. He said he was the only boy and had 7 sisters. He said he just grew up and wanted to be like them.

So............

I have no idea what you are trying to say there. I'll ask again, when did YOU learn to be heterosexual?

 

[fskimospy]

It's not hard to explain at all people like Anne Heche. Where is it defined or proven that human sexuality is binary? It's not.. because it isn't. It is also not binary in the rest of the animal kingdom, by the way.



Sexuality is innate. Sexual activity is a choice.. and is influenced by a lot of things. It's really not hard to understand. The thing of it is, though, why are heterosexuals allowed to choose to seek government recognition of their chosen relationships, but homosexuals are not?

Not to mention that homosexuality is seen throughout the animal kingdom. I guess all those monkies, rams, etc. just didn't have caring enough monkey-fathers.

 

[zsdersw]

I can give you an example of what I mean.

I had my first daughter at 19, so I was rather young. One of my close friends also had his first daughter at the same time. My girlfriend and his girlfriend met in the hospital and became good friends. Now he was up out of his daughter's life but I stayed in mine. His daughter became real resentful and as she got older she became rougher, tough persona. She had this attitude that she needed to protect herself. Well to make a long story short, she turned out gay. Now did she just develop that way or was her lack of a relationship with her real father a driving force. I shared custody with my daughter's mom. So I would have have her several weeks during the summer, holidays, and two weekends a month.

Now her friend would also want to come and I knew her dad wasn't spending time with her so I would bring her with me. But she became resentful and just grew to hate her dad because he wouldn't spend time with her. I specualte that out of that resentment she despised men and even came to the conclusion any contact , even intimate with a man was a waste of time. Now you may say that has nothing to do with it, but I beg to differ. So many of them will say somewhere in their past they got hurt really bad, or this is all they ever knew. My one friend who moved to Atlanta said he was in a homosexual relationships all his life. He will tell you thats all I knew. He said he was the only boy and had 7 sisters. He said he just grew up and wanted to be like them.

So............

My mother died when I was 11. I lived with my father, just us two, until I moved out of the house at 19. I had (and still have) a good relationship with my father. When I was a kid we went camping, to archery and bowhunting events.. and I was pretty good with a bow-and-arrow back then. So how did I end up homosexual?

I also grew up in a rural area... surrounded by forested areas and farms. If environment is a key factor in determining sexual orientation, surely I should be heterosexual... right?

 

[classy]

I have no idea what you are trying to say there. I'll ask again, when did YOU learn to be heterosexual?

From the time I could remeber. At no point in time in my life was I ever exposed to being homosexual. Never. I grew up in the late 70s-80s and even though we speculated those who were gay, they didn't project that outward.

As for the animal kingdom that is just dumb. Animals don't have sex out of reason, they do it out of instinct. Animals don't have a moral compass, thats why a rabbit will hump anything. For humans, we guide our sexual desires with reason. Always have always will. If we didn't I would be humping this chick in the next office, lol. the use of animal behavior is a seriously seriously flaky one.

 

[zsdersw]

From the time I could remeber. At no point in time in my life was I ever exposed to being homosexual. Never.

Neither was I when I was growing up.

As for the animal kingdom that is just dumb. Animals don't have sex out of reason, they do it out of instinct. Animals don't have a moral compass, thats why a rabbit will hump anything. For humans, we guide our sexual desires with reason. Always have always will. If we didn't I would be humping this chick in the next office, lol. the use of animal behavior is a seriously seriously flaky one.

No, you're the one who's dumb. The point of homosexuality existing in the animal kingdom isn't about moral compasses and the like... it's about demonstrating that homosexuality is not just a Hollywood, big-city creation; it's a biological reality.

Of course we guide our sexual desires with reason... but, again, that's not the point. The point is that we have sexual desires, and they're all not exactly the same..

 

[classy]

My mother died when I was 11. I lived with my father, just us two, until I moved out of the house at 19. I had (and still have) a good relationship with my father. When I was a kid we went camping, to archery and bowhunting events.. and I was pretty good with a bow-and-arrow back then. So how did I end up homosexual?

I also grew up in a rural area... surrounded by forested areas and farms. If environment is a key factor in determining sexual orientation, surely I should be heterosexual... right?

I don't know. I don't know what kind of enviroment you were allowed to or took part of out of the home either. I don't know if you had gay relatives or watched gay shows. I don't know what kind of friends you were allowed to have or the homes were allowed to sleep over either.

 

[zsdersw]

I don't know. I don't know what kind of enviroment you were allowed to or took part of out of the home either. I don't know if you had gay relatives or watched gay shows. I don't know what kind of friends you were allowed to have or the homes were allowed to sleep over either.

I was raised Catholic, we didn't have cable TV, my friends were average everyday kids (sports, cars, girls, guns, hunting), and I rarely slept over at anyone's house.

I went to a Catholic grade school, then to a small rural public school district from middle-school on through high school. My graduating class had, IIRC, 80-some kids. In other words, I didn't grow up and go to school in the Castro or LAUSD.

 

[fskimospy]

From the time I could remeber. At no point in time in my life was I ever exposed to being homosexual. Never. I grew up in the late 70s-80s and even though we speculated those who were gay, they didn't project that outward.

As for the animal kingdom that is just dumb. Animals don't have sex out of reason, they do it out of instinct. Animals don't have a moral compass, thats why a rabbit will hump anything. For humans, we guide our sexual desires with reason. Always have always will. If we didn't I would be humping this chick in the next office, lol. the use of animal behavior is a seriously seriously flaky one.

So lets get your reasoning straight here. You have been heterosexual for as long as you even knew what sexuality was, right? From this you infer that you were taught it by someone. Why? We have large numbers of behaviors that do not need to be taught, so for what earthly reason would you assume that sexuality was taught?

Your point about animals is actually helping my argument, not yours. Animals have sex out of instinct, and some animals apparently have an instinct to only mate with those of the same sex. Humans are animals. Now what does this tell you?

 

[fskimospy]

I was raised Catholic, we didn't have cable TV, my friends were average everyday kids (sports, cars, girls, guns, hunting), and I rarely slept over at anyone's house.

I went to a Catholic grade school, then to a small rural public school district from middle-school on through high school. My graduating class had, IIRC, 80-some kids. In other words, I didn't grow up in the Castro.

My brother and I grew up in the same house and had most of the same friends. He's gay and I'm not. He must have gone to special homofication classes when I wasn't around.

 

[classy]

The point is that we have sexual desires, and they're all not exactly the same..

And finally you have spoken my exact point on this issue for years. We all have sexual desires, but when do you allow a moral compass to be a guide for those desires? This is and has been my point all along. And your desire is not compass for what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. I have the desire to bone women who are not my wife, but morally I restrain myself because it is unacceptable. There are sexual stuff people do I would never do because it violates my moral judgement. I have never been spank and nor have I given a spanking, notin the literal sense anyway.

Now if you have no moral compass, or just rely on the animal kingdom instinct, then yea anything goes. My moral compass says a person should stay and live true to their gender. And I didn't have to go to college to learn that one either.

 

[classy]

I was raised Catholic, we didn't have cable TV, my friends were average everyday kids (sports, cars, girls, guns, hunting), and I rarely slept over at anyone's house.

I went to a Catholic grade school, then to a small rural public school district from middle-school on through high school. My graduating class had, IIRC, 80-some kids. In other words, I didn't grow up and go to school in the Castro or LAUSD.

Well having a little fun here, you went to Catholic school huh? You don't say, lol

 

[zsdersw]

And finally you spoken my exact point on this issue for years. We all have sexual desires, but when do you allow a moral compass to be a guide for those desires? This is and has been my point all along. And your desire is not compass for what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. I have the desire to bone women who are not my wife, but morally I restrain my self because it is unacceptable. There are sexual stuff people do I would never do because it violates my moral judgement. I have never been spank and nor have I given a spanking, notin the literal sense anyway.

Now if you have no moral compass, or just rely on the animal kingdom instinct, then yea anything goes. My moral compass says a person should stay and live true to their gender. And I didn't have to go to college to learn that one either.

Way to miss the boat.

Restraint? Yes, I don't have sex with just any man that I think is hot. When I've been in relationships, I've restrained myself from having sex with anyone else but him.

You're talking about being choosy about which women to have sex with and which ones not to. Your "moral compass" doesn't tell you not to have sex with a man... your sexual orientation does... just as my sexual orientation tells me not to have sex with a woman.. while my reasoned restraint (a "moral compass", in your parlance) keeps me from having sex with just any man I find attractive.

 

[zsdersw]

Well having a little fun here, you went to Catholic school huh? You don't say, lol

Yes I did and no there wasn't anything like that there.

 

[Nebor]

This thread just makes me that much more in favor of severely restricting parents autonomy in raising their kids. We're permitting them to raise backwards, biggotted Americans. If we can get a good, progressive agenda into schools, and take away their ability to shield their kids from it, their argument will significantly weaken when they can no longer claim to be dislike homosexuality because they want to shelter their kids from it.