Minimum Wage Can Stand Some Maximizing...

[ultimatebob]

Ooh, this is debate is a tough one for me.

On one hand, I used to make a few cents over minimum wage when I was teenager working at a grocery store. I worked with some poor folks who worked 39 hours a week (the store would have needed to give them health benefits by state law if they worked 40) at slightly more than minimum wage, and they still needed welfare and charitable donations to feed their kids. The grocery store chain made millions a year in profits, but didn't pay any more simply because they knew that they didn't HAVE to. See... they were the one of the few workplaces within walking distance of the low income housing areas in town, so they could get away paying the state minimum and still have a fairly large labor pool to pick from. Hell, I bet that they could have payed them only $4 an hour if the government would have let them get away with it I don't care if you're a liberal or a fiscal conservative... you must admit exploitation like that isn't right.

On the OTHER hand, I don't work there anymore. I worked hard to get my college degree, and I only have to visit stores like that when I need to buy groceries. I also hate the idea of having to pay more for those groceries if the minimum wage went up, because I know that the store owners like the one mentioned above will just pay for their increased labor costs by raising prices. I'm sure that gas station convience stores would charge more as well, along with coffee shops and fast food joints.

I guess that the best solution would be a two-tier minimum wage system. Employees under the age of 18 who are still considered dependants could have a minimum wage starting around $5.50 an hour, whereas people over the age of 18 who might have dependants of their own would have a minimum starting salary of $6.50 an hour. You would also need an improved non discrimination policy that would stop employers from firing people simply because they turned 18 and they now need to pay an extra dollar an hour for their labor.

We also need a system for cost of living adjustments to the minimum wage as well. An hourly wage of $5.50 an hour might be enough to live on in rural Alabama, but it wouldn't even pay for your rent in San Francisco or NYC.

 

[bayou]

[/quote]We get it. You're too deluded to understand that every person's life ends in tragedy. You bring up little singular examples of tragedy thinking you prove your point while the rest of us just sigh at your idiotic state of denial. Tragedy awaits us all. No one is spared. Grit your teeth and get used to it. It's inevitable. Your god won't save you (or anyone) any more than the Christian god will save them.


edit: and your sig... :roll: YOU calling Zendari a troll. That's the ultimate in pot calling the kettle black.[/quote]

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: Sure got the deluded part right! Just what our country needs: A deluded, ignorant troll for president:roll:

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: bayou
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: Sure got the deluded part right! Just what our country needs: A deluded, ignorant troll for president:roll:

What does whoever is President have to do with this or anything? Bush is just a weak fool. A puppet for the special interests that control Congress and BOTH parties. Probably the weakest president since Coolidge. IIRC, he hasn't vetoed a single bill out of Congress yet.

 

[OutHouse]

min wage increase = higher prices for my bigmac. :| bad idea.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Citrix
min wage increase = higher prices for my bigmac. :| bad idea.

Do like the poor people do, go without or pack a lunch.

 

[stinkz]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: delas52
Yes needs to be raised

Simply because it makes you feel good is insufficient reasoning. In fact, that would be all the reason not to do it.

LOL, where did he say what his reasoning was?? Raising the minimum wage is the right thing to do. If it makes me feel good, then I guess I will just have to live with it.

Has this discussion lead nowhere? Raising the minimum wage takes jobs from the poor and causes inflation. I don't know who that's "right" for.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: stinkz

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: delas52
Yes needs to be raised

Simply because it makes you feel good is insufficient reasoning. In fact, that would be all the reason not to do it.

LOL, where did he say what his reasoning was?? Raising the minimum wage is the right thing to do. If it makes me feel good, then I guess I will just have to live with it.

Has this discussion lead nowhere? Raising the minimum wage takes jobs from the poor and causes inflation. I don't know who that's "right" for.

Yeah, that's the same "sky is falling" drivel the propagandists trot out everytime the minimum wage is raised and they haven't been right yet. I've heard it several times now and it's just a big lie you chose to believe because you don't care.

Or can you show me where past hikes of the minimum wage have cause undue hardship for the country?

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: stinkz

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: delas52
Yes needs to be raised

Simply because it makes you feel good is insufficient reasoning. In fact, that would be all the reason not to do it.

LOL, where did he say what his reasoning was?? Raising the minimum wage is the right thing to do. If it makes me feel good, then I guess I will just have to live with it.

Has this discussion lead nowhere? Raising the minimum wage takes jobs from the poor and causes inflation. I don't know who that's "right" for.

Since you're wrong on both counts, historically, why not try a new talking point?

 

[stinkz]

The propagandists are the ones that want to make you believe that raising the minimum wage is helping the poor, while ignoring economics altogether.

I can hear the idiotic liberal minds at work now... (preface these statements with "we hate business and love poor people, so...")
"Maybe if we force businesses to pay their lowest income workers more, we can give free money to all poor people!"
this sounds similar to...
"Maybe if we force businesses to cap their prices at a certain level, we can provide poor towns with cheaper goods!"

Simple macroeconomics, nay, common sense can fix these idiotic notions. Hopefully you already see the problem with the government controlling business with a price cap (the business will move from the poor town if it can not charge enough to produce profit). But the first one is just as simple. Raise the minimum wage without increasing profits gives businesses two choices: hire fewer low-wage workers, or raise prices.


If a proposal was accepted to raise the minimum wage by more than just a few cents, you better believe we'd see "undue hardship" arise.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: stinkz
The propagandists are the ones that want to make you believe that raising the minimum wage is helping the poor, while ignoring economics altogether.

I can hear the idiotic liberal minds at work now... (preface these statements with "we hate business and love poor people, so...")
"Maybe if we force businesses to pay their lowest income workers more, we can give free money to all poor people!"
this sounds similar to...
"Maybe if we force businesses to cap their prices at a certain level, we can provide poor towns with cheaper goods!"

Simple macroeconomics, nay, common sense can fix these idiotic notions. Hopefully you already see the problem with the government controlling business with a price cap (the business will move from the poor town if it can not charge enough to produce profit). But the first one is just as simple. Raise the minimum wage without increasing profits gives businesses two choices: hire fewer low-wage workers, or raise prices.


If a proposal was accepted to raise the minimum wage by more than just a few cents, you better believe we'd see "undue hardship" arise.

What, all BS opinion and no links to back them up???? What a surprise. :laugh:

 

[stinkz]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: stinkz
The propagandists are the ones that want to make you believe that raising the minimum wage is helping the poor, while ignoring economics altogether.

I can hear the idiotic liberal minds at work now... (preface these statements with "we hate business and love poor people, so...")
"Maybe if we force businesses to pay their lowest income workers more, we can give free money to all poor people!"
this sounds similar to...
"Maybe if we force businesses to cap their prices at a certain level, we can provide poor towns with cheaper goods!"

Simple macroeconomics, nay, common sense can fix these idiotic notions. Hopefully you already see the problem with the government controlling business with a price cap (the business will move from the poor town if it can not charge enough to produce profit). But the first one is just as simple. Raise the minimum wage without increasing profits gives businesses two choices: hire fewer low-wage workers, or raise prices.


If a proposal was accepted to raise the minimum wage by more than just a few cents, you better believe we'd see "undue hardship" arise.

What, all BS opinion and no links to back them up???? What a surprise. :laugh:

Macroeconomics is a good course. Take it.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: stinkz

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: stinkz
The propagandists are the ones that want to make you believe that raising the minimum wage is helping the poor, while ignoring economics altogether.

I can hear the idiotic liberal minds at work now... (preface these statements with "we hate business and love poor people, so...")
"Maybe if we force businesses to pay their lowest income workers more, we can give free money to all poor people!"
this sounds similar to...
"Maybe if we force businesses to cap their prices at a certain level, we can provide poor towns with cheaper goods!"

Simple macroeconomics, nay, common sense can fix these idiotic notions. Hopefully you already see the problem with the government controlling business with a price cap (the business will move from the poor town if it can not charge enough to produce profit). But the first one is just as simple. Raise the minimum wage without increasing profits gives businesses two choices: hire fewer low-wage workers, or raise prices.


If a proposal was accepted to raise the minimum wage by more than just a few cents, you better believe we'd see "undue hardship" arise.

What, all BS opinion and no links to back them up???? What a surprise. :laugh:

Macroeconomics is a good course. Take it.

LMAO, does it teach you to make claims you can't back-up with historical data??

 

[stinkz]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: stinkz

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: stinkz
The propagandists are the ones that want to make you believe that raising the minimum wage is helping the poor, while ignoring economics altogether.

I can hear the idiotic liberal minds at work now... (preface these statements with "we hate business and love poor people, so...")
"Maybe if we force businesses to pay their lowest income workers more, we can give free money to all poor people!"
this sounds similar to...
"Maybe if we force businesses to cap their prices at a certain level, we can provide poor towns with cheaper goods!"

Simple macroeconomics, nay, common sense can fix these idiotic notions. Hopefully you already see the problem with the government controlling business with a price cap (the business will move from the poor town if it can not charge enough to produce profit). But the first one is just as simple. Raise the minimum wage without increasing profits gives businesses two choices: hire fewer low-wage workers, or raise prices.


If a proposal was accepted to raise the minimum wage by more than just a few cents, you better believe we'd see "undue hardship" arise.

What, all BS opinion and no links to back them up???? What a surprise. :laugh:

Macroeconomics is a good course. Take it.

LMAO, does it teach you to make claims you can't back-up with historical data??

Since an appeal to reason is obviously the wrong approach with you, I shall merely point out that you have presented no evidence for any of your opinions. And no, sarcastic laughs and emotional rhetoric don't count.

An anti-business stance automatically disqualifies you from any rational discussion of economic policy, in my opinion.

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: stinkz

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: stinkz
The propagandists are the ones that want to make you believe that raising the minimum wage is helping the poor, while ignoring economics altogether.

I can hear the idiotic liberal minds at work now... (preface these statements with "we hate business and love poor people, so...")
"Maybe if we force businesses to pay their lowest income workers more, we can give free money to all poor people!"
this sounds similar to...
"Maybe if we force businesses to cap their prices at a certain level, we can provide poor towns with cheaper goods!"

Simple macroeconomics, nay, common sense can fix these idiotic notions. Hopefully you already see the problem with the government controlling business with a price cap (the business will move from the poor town if it can not charge enough to produce profit). But the first one is just as simple. Raise the minimum wage without increasing profits gives businesses two choices: hire fewer low-wage workers, or raise prices.


If a proposal was accepted to raise the minimum wage by more than just a few cents, you better believe we'd see "undue hardship" arise.

What, all BS opinion and no links to back them up???? What a surprise. :laugh:

Macroeconomics is a good course. Take it.

I think you missed a few key concepts of Macroeconomics:
The price of an Item is decided soley by supply and demand and not the cost to produce said item so increase the minimum wage can't increase prices unless it decreased supply or increased demand. The price would not increase because businesses want more profit.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: stinkz

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: stinkz

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: stinkz
The propagandists are the ones that want to make you believe that raising the minimum wage is helping the poor, while ignoring economics altogether.

I can hear the idiotic liberal minds at work now... (preface these statements with "we hate business and love poor people, so...")
"Maybe if we force businesses to pay their lowest income workers more, we can give free money to all poor people!"
this sounds similar to...
"Maybe if we force businesses to cap their prices at a certain level, we can provide poor towns with cheaper goods!"

Simple macroeconomics, nay, common sense can fix these idiotic notions. Hopefully you already see the problem with the government controlling business with a price cap (the business will move from the poor town if it can not charge enough to produce profit). But the first one is just as simple. Raise the minimum wage without increasing profits gives businesses two choices: hire fewer low-wage workers, or raise prices.


If a proposal was accepted to raise the minimum wage by more than just a few cents, you better believe we'd see "undue hardship" arise.

What, all BS opinion and no links to back them up???? What a surprise. :laugh:

Macroeconomics is a good course. Take it.

LMAO, does it teach you to make claims you can't back-up with historical data??

Since an appeal to reason is obviously the wrong approach with you, I shall merely point out that you have presented no evidence for any of your opinions. And no, sarcastic laughs and emotional rhetoric don't count.

An anti-business stance automatically disqualifies you from any rational discussion of economic policy, in my opinion.

Not man enough to admit you can't find any historical data to prove YOUR assertions, huh. That's OK, you have your OPINION and I have mine.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Citrix
min wage increase = higher prices for my bigmac. :| bad idea.

Do like the poor people do, go without or pack a lunch.

Your "poor people" eat BigMacs. That's one of many reasons why they're poor -- they always pay more than they need to for essential goods and services.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: stinkz

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: stinkz
The propagandists are the ones that want to make you believe that raising the minimum wage is helping the poor, while ignoring economics altogether.

I can hear the idiotic liberal minds at work now... (preface these statements with "we hate business and love poor people, so...")
"Maybe if we force businesses to pay their lowest income workers more, we can give free money to all poor people!"
this sounds similar to...
"Maybe if we force businesses to cap their prices at a certain level, we can provide poor towns with cheaper goods!"

Simple macroeconomics, nay, common sense can fix these idiotic notions. Hopefully you already see the problem with the government controlling business with a price cap (the business will move from the poor town if it can not charge enough to produce profit). But the first one is just as simple. Raise the minimum wage without increasing profits gives businesses two choices: hire fewer low-wage workers, or raise prices.


If a proposal was accepted to raise the minimum wage by more than just a few cents, you better believe we'd see "undue hardship" arise.

What, all BS opinion and no links to back them up???? What a surprise. :laugh:

Macroeconomics is a good course. Take it.

I think you missed a few key concepts of Macroeconomics:
The price of an Item is decided soley by supply and demand and not the cost to produce said item so increase the minimum wage can't increase prices unless it decreased supply or increased demand. The price would not increase because businesses want more profit.

And I think you missed the class. Reduced profits lowers the amount of capital invested into production of said item which decreases supply which (if substantial demand still exists for said item) results in an increase in price.
The idea that cost has nothing to do with price is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[3chordcharlie]

I think you all missed the fact that your arguments came from relevant bits of microeconomics.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
I think you all missed the fact that your arguments came from relevant bits of microeconomics.

And how is that revelant? Are you going to argue as well that cost has no effect on price? The simple fact is that increased cost at stable demand and prices will inevitably reduce supply (as lower profits send capital seeking greener pastures) which will inevitably drive up prices. Markets are self-organizing, not chaotic. They ebb and flow seeking an ever-elusive equillibrium.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
I think you all missed the fact that your arguments came from relevant bits of microeconomics.

And how is that revelant? Are you going to argue as well that cost has no effect on price? The simple fact is that increased cost at stable demand and prices will inevitably reduce supply (as lower profits send capital seeking greener pastures) which will inevitably drive up prices. Markets are self-organizing, not chaotic. They ebb and flow seeking an ever-elusive equillibrium.

Increasing wages might conceivably drive investment away from low-wage industries, but it's unlikely as the effect is simply not that big.

I was directly that comment mostly at Stinkz and his arguing buddies after he made several consecutive posts bragging about his knowledge of macro-economics, then making bad arguments based on micro-economics.

When one tries to give arguments a veneer of credibility by claiming some sort of 'expert' status, it is a good idea to make sure you know something about the subject first.

 

[Vic]

The effect is always just big enough to erase the benefit of the wage increase.

Keep in mind though that (and I have argued this before in this thread) the job market is already well ahead of the minimum wage. Even evil Wal-Mart pays its "associates" an average of $9.50/hr., or almost twice the federal minimum wage of $5.15/hr. There are very few workers in America making the minimum wage, and most of them are teenage kids living at home with their parents.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Vic
Keep in mind though that (and I have argued this before in this thread) the job market is already well ahead of the minimum wage.

There are very few workers in America making the minimum wage, and most of them are teenage kids living at home with their parents.

and you have proof of this where???

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: Vic
The effect is always just big enough to erase the benefit of the wage increase.

Keep in mind though that (and I have argued this before in this thread) the job market is already well ahead of the minimum wage. Even evil Wal-Mart pays its "associates" an average of $9.50/hr., or almost twice the federal minimum wage of $5.15/hr. There are very few workers in America making the minimum wage, and most of them are teenage kids living at home with their parents.

So the fact that it effects so few is the reason it needs increasing.

 

[herm0016]

michigan just decided to raise the min. wage. they are going to drive what jobs we still have left out. raising the min. wage will just make everything cost more and drive up inflation which is the oppsist of what we really need to do.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: herm0016
michigan just decided to raise the min. wage. they are going to drive what jobs we still have left out.

raising the min. wage will just make everything cost more and drive up inflation which is the oppsist of what we really need to do.

Good

Besides Republicans keep saying we don't need those lousy jobs anyway so what are you complaning about?