Mike Rowe talks about lack of skilled labor

[lxskllr]

im going to go out on a limb and say, I dont believe IT is one of those jobs where apprenticeship is necessary the best way. Sure about 50% of the task you do, it will suffice for. but many of the advanced problem solving tasks I do, that my co-workers cannot, (i have a 4 yr degree in computer scence, they have 2 yr degree in information systems) require lots of the programming and electrical knowledge, I got from my degree.
They may be able to replicate tasks with instructions, but I am the only one which actuallys understands what we are doing any why... and when the procedures dont work as prescribed I can overcome the difficulties, they simply stop and wait for assistance from me.

That comes back to giving a shit, and knowing what you're doing. A piece of paper from a school is proof of nothing. I've gone out to jobs with LICENSED surveyors, and they were told not to come back. The client wanted the dumb old high school grad to do the work. The best surveyor I worked with wasn't licensed. He had to have one on staff for the property jobs, but his skill blew away the "professionals" he had working under him.

There's no doubt in my mind I can do IT. Anything I don't know today, I'll know when I come in tomorrow. After I've gotten the workstations fixed up, I'll graduate to server management, and those machines will work better than they ever did by the time I'm finished. It's all about giving a shit, and finding ways to do things better. If you have spare time, good enough, isn't good enough. Everything can be made better if you put the time in to do so.

 

[sao123]

That comes back to giving a shit, and knowing what you're doing. A piece of paper from a school is proof of nothing. I've gone out to jobs with LICENSED surveyors, and they were told not to come back. The client wanted the dumb old high school grad to do the work. The best surveyor I worked with wasn't licensed. He had to have one on staff for the property jobs, but his skill blew away the "professionals" he had working under him.

There's no doubt in my mind I can do IT. Anything I don't know today, I'll know when I come in tomorrow. After I've gotten the workstations fixed up, I'll graduate to server management, and those machines will work better than they ever did by the time I'm finished. It's all about giving a shit, and finding ways to do things better. If you have spare time, good enough, isn't good enough. Everything can be made better if you put the time in to do so.

Unfortunately, that is the flaw in your reasoning.
one of the most important things about IT is resource availability:

In the world of construction, if you dont know how to install a sink, you can always do it partway, then install the toilet, then come back to the sink the next day... In IT you dont have that luxury.

Sure you can leave a workstation broke for a day or so... but not a server or a database. if your server goes down or database stops functioning, the world stops. You cant do transactions, you cant do anything. You dont have time to wait till tomorrow to learn how get it back up. Uptime is key.

Things like security are so fundamentally vital, if you dont know it, can lead to your entire critical or private data being stolen, deleted, or corrupted.

Whether you accept it or not, IT is a profession, not a skilled trade, and for 100% of all professions, the following is true 100% of the time:

 

[lxskllr]

Unfortunately, that is the flaw in your reasoning.
one of the most important things about IT is resource availability:

In the world of construction, if you dont know how to install a sink, you can always do it partway, then install the toilet, then come back to the sink the next day... In IT you dont have that luxury.

Sure you can leave a workstation broke for a day or so... but not a server or a database. if your server goes down or database stops functioning, the world stops. You cant do transactions, you cant do anything. You dont have time to wait till tomorrow to learn how get it back up. Uptime is key.

Things like security are so fundamentally vital, if you dont know it, can lead to your entire critical or private data being stolen, deleted, or corrupted.

Whether you accept it or not, IT is a profession, not a skilled trade, and for 100% of all professions, the following is true 100% of the time:

Your opinion of IT work is entirely too high. It certainly is a skilled trade. Just because you wield a keyboard instead of a hammer, that doesn't make it any more special ;^)

I specifically said I could start in entry level, and by the time I needed to know server admin, you can be damned sure I'd know how to admin a server.

 

[Engineer]

After working around manufacturing for the last 20 years (in automation and machine building), I have to say that I've never seen such a time (especially with all of the unemployed people in this country) where it is so hard to find skilled operators, maintenance and technical people. I'm called out to factories all the time because they do not have the personnel to handle the job nor can they find them.

Throw on top the fact that people in my position are becoming harder and harder to find (Electrical Engineer in Controls/Automation Engineering). Maybe with the notion that manufacturing is leaving the US, people are just afraid to get anywhere near that. Also, many companies use temp agencies so maybe that's part of the problem. Maybe companies are not willing to pay enough to attract people. Not sure why but I do believe that we have a skills gap and until sentiment changes, I believe we will for the foreseeable future.

 

[Engineer]

Skilled labor isn't getting outsourced. Plumbers, carpenters, electricians, masons, ect. Those are jobs that require bodies on site. You can't outsource that. Don't confuse skilled labour with manufacturing.

Service jobs(customer support) and manufacturing are the jobs getting shipped across the globe.

So machine builders and tradesman aren't skilled trade? More and more machinery being built in China/Mexico/etc. and jobs are going with them. My plant, with 30 people with 1,000+ years of experience among them, was closed last year. Those people are definitely skilled trade....no ands, ifs or buts about it.

 

[BoomerD]

So machine builders and tradesman aren't skilled trade? More and more machinery being built in China/Mexico/etc. and jobs are going with them. My plant, with 30 people with 1,000+ years of experience among them, was closed last year. Those people are definitely skilled trade....no ands, ifs or buts about it.

I definitely agree with you. The engineering isn't really a "skilled trade," but rather a professional position.
I also agree with your previous post that it seems to be harder for manufacturing companies to fill spots with experienced people.
Perhaps that's because there are very few "trade schools" that teach people such skills, or because, as you suggested, so much manufacturing is going to other countries that people are either choosing a different direction in their careers, or were bitten by a company closure and re-trained into a different career.
Standing in one place all day, feeding the same piece of material into a jig, letting the machine stamp out the part, sending it down the line to the next person...repeat 5,000 times per day...that's not what I call skilled labor...but the guy who sets up those machines, repairs them, and to a lesser degree, does the maintenance on them...that IS skilled labor.
Manufacturing plants usually have a mix of skilled and un-skilled labor.

 

[Tristicus]

In high schools, the vocational arts have all but vanished. We've elevated the importance of "higher education" to such a lofty perch that all other forms of knowledge are now labeled "alternative."

Oh this, and so much of fucking this.

 

[Engineer]

Manufacturing plants usually have a mix of skilled and un-skilled labor.

With the requirements that many plants are requesting on their machinery now, I would dare say it's going more and more unskilled as they want the machine to pick the operator's nose if possible.

 

[BoomerD]

With the requirements that many plants are requesting on their machinery now, I would dare say it's going more and more unskilled as they want the machine to pick the operator's nose if possible.

:biggrin: Then it should be easy for them to find people...😛

 

[Engineer]

:biggrin: Then it should be easy for them to find people...😛

LOL. Noticed that I stated "requesting". Doesn't mean that they are getting it.

More and more robots, servos, vision systems just make the machines better but also more complicated to keep running or setup in some cases. Of course, a good Engineer can make it run well and easy as pie to run/setup! 😛

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

LOL. Noticed that I stated "requesting". Doesn't mean that they are getting it.

More and more robots, servos, vision systems just make the machines better but also more complicated to keep running or setup in some cases. Of course, a good Engineer can make it run well and easy as pie to run/setup! 😛

Unless you work for Motorola. In which case, you need an unskilled laborer to show you where in the plant a particular step in the manufacturing process happens. 😀

 

[BoomerD]

LOL. Noticed that I stated "requesting". Doesn't mean that they are getting it.

More and more robots, servos, vision systems just make the machines better but also more complicated to keep running or setup in some cases. Of course, a good Engineer can make it run well and easy as pie to run/setup! 😛

It's getting harder and harder to find those too...😛

Lots of "engineers" graduate every year...how many have what it takes to become "GOOD engineers" is another story.

 

[Engineer]

It's getting harder and harder to find those too...😛

Lots of "engineers" graduate every year...how many have what it takes to become "GOOD engineers" is another story.

I know what you mean. It's almost like Bigfoot...I've never seen one before.😵

 

[shortylickens]

I know what you mean. It's almost like Bigfoot...I've never seen one before.😵

We had plenty at Tektronix.
They got laid off to save money.

 

[Engineer]

We had plenty at Tektronix.
They got laid off to save money.

No they didn't...they got laid off because they didn't have enough skills. Try to keep up!

#bigbusinesscuttingjobsbecauseyoumaketoomuchfuckingmoneycomparedtochineseengineersmakingonedollarperday.

 

[SP33Demon]

I have a lot of respect for trades but could never do manual labor for the rest of my life, once I had a taste of the good life (white collar computer job) I never missed my manual labor job.

 

[vi edit]

So machine builders and tradesman aren't skilled trade? More and more machinery being built in China/Mexico/etc. and jobs are going with them. My plant, with 30 people with 1,000+ years of experience among them, was closed last year. Those people are definitely skilled trade....no ands, ifs or buts about it.

Manufacturing is different because the overall industry trumps the labor. Machines and programs can replace labor. Higher paid labor can be replaced by cheap labor oversees. Ect. I'm not saying it's an unskilled job, I'm simply saying it's not the same as many of the construction oriented trades because you can't build an office building or fix a broken toilet in Omaha, NE from China, Taiwan, or Mexico.

 

[shortylickens]

I have a lot of respect for trades but could never do manual labor for the rest of my life, once I had a taste of the good life (white collar computer job) I never missed my manual labor job.

Every red blooded American male should be willing to work hard in his life.
But if thats all you ever do I feel sorry for you. At some point you should want more and should strive to get it.

 

[marvdmartian]

Oh man, they covered this perfectly today, in the cartoon SHOE. :thumbsup:

 

[BarneyFife]

I work as an engineer in road/bridge construction and always am in awe of the laborers working onsite, skilled or unskilled. Since all of our projects are federally funded, we have union workers and those guys really kick ass. Electricians, carpenter, operators, finishers etc... The one real negative with these kinds of jobs is the travel. Once you're done working, they ship you to the next job and if there is no "next" job then you aren't getting paid. Times are tough.

 

[notposting]

Just completed my Limited Energy apprenticeship through the IBEW. Not an electrician, we do anything else (paging, security, cameras, data/voice, video, hvac, controls, etc) and usually work alongside them. We usually work 7-330, M-F. Seeing the other skilled (and unskilled) trades makes you appreciate it more. Watching a millwright or sprinkler fitter or any of them at work makes you realize the training, experience, and yes, education that goes into it.

WTF is up with people considering IT to be skilled labor? Also would like to see slayer try to keep up for a week with the trades. Guess he should be fine just reading a little bit before the start of each day since anyone can do it. ROFL. I also roll my eyes usually at the "unable to find skilled *insert trade* here". Well not at the prices that the corporations would like anyway.

And at least here in MI there is a pretty big difference between the union and non-union tradesmen, there are some slugs on our side and some good ones on the non side, but the overall level is far apart. Going onto a non-union site you really see the difference.

 

[BoomerD]

Just completed my Limited Energy apprenticeship through the IBEW. Not an electrician, we do anything else (paging, security, cameras, data/voice, video, hvac, controls, etc) and usually work alongside them. We usually work 7-330, M-F. Seeing the other skilled (and unskilled) trades makes you appreciate it more. Watching a millwright or sprinkler fitter or any of them at work makes you realize the training, experience, and yes, education that goes into it.

WTF is up with people considering IT to be skilled labor? Also would like to see slayer try to keep up for a week with the trades. Guess he should be fine just reading a little bit before the start of each day since anyone can do it. ROFL. I also roll my eyes usually at the "unable to find skilled *insert trade* here". Well not at the prices that the corporations would like anyway.

And at least here in MI there is a pretty big difference between the union and non-union tradesmen, there are some slugs on our side and some good ones on the non side, but the overall level is far apart. Going onto a non-union site you really see the difference.

Yep. When I was a business agent, I tried to steal the best non-union hands for the union contractors.

Around here, GOOD non-union operators make <$20/hr, while the run-of-the-mill operators make $30 or more. (union scale only sets the MINIMUM wage the company has to pay for the job...I usually got $3-$5/hr over scale.)

 

[sao123]

Your opinion of IT work is entirely too high. It certainly is a skilled trade. Just because you wield a keyboard instead of a hammer, that doesn't make it any more special ;^)

I specifically said I could start in entry level, and by the time I needed to know server admin, you can be damned sure I'd know how to admin a server.

your opinion of IT is far too low. Aside from a call center helpdesk, No IT staff dedicates a staff member to such sole tasks such entry level tasks as workstation maintenance. Most office have a staff of 3-5 workers and everyone needs to know how to do everything. Ever read recent IT job ads? 5-10 years experience with a plethora of skills in a wide variety of areas. Apprenticeships in IT do not exist for all of the reasons I told you in my previous post.

 

[SP33Demon]

Every red blooded American male should be willing to work hard in his life.
But if thats all you ever do I feel sorry for you. At some point you should want more and should strive to get it.

So white collar peeps don't work hard? Whatever you say, mental work > physical if you want to live longer. Not going back to physical labor ever again, I strive for mental perfection in my field.

 

[OverVolt]

Really, who cares? There are more important things to worry about. Convenience is a big part of it. It's not 1940 anymore, the world has changed...



sad that zeze is one of the few to realize this

The economic data backs him up.