• Guest, The rules for the P & N subforum have been updated to prohibit "ad hominem" or personal attacks against other posters. See the full details in the post "Politics and News Rules & Guidelines."

Microsoft officially announces Windows 11

Page 4 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Torn Mind

Diamond Member
Nov 25, 2012
6,321
808
126
Methinks AMD and Intel told Microsoft that without some software obsolescence, they and their investors would get screwed over by all these old ass Sandy Bridges to first round of Skylakes....that people refuse to drop fully.
 

deustroop

Golden Member
Dec 12, 2010
1,792
292
136
I think that the hard floor of " Secure Boot capable" means just what it says. Not that the system must enable Secure Boot just be capable of it.
Like many, I have received qualification to upgrade a system that has PTT enabled but not SB. MSinfo32 says, under Secure Boot, "Off".
 

VivienM

Senior member
Jun 26, 2001
486
45
91
Well if you build your own stuff it should be easy to find that option in the BIOS, that's what I did.
What if your hardware is too old to have it?

What's infuriating about this whole thing is that it favours 'new' over 'good'. Sandy Bridge laptops with 16 gigs of RAM, quad core CPUs, 802.11ac upgrades and SSD - junk (no secure boot, no TPM of any sort or maybe a 1.2, barely UEFI boot). Nice solid off-lease corporate desktops with Haswells, likely dead though maybe only on life support because they have TPM 1.2s. Meanwhile, I can go down to Worst Buy, pick up a Celeron N4500 laptop with 4 gigs of RAM and 64 gigs of eMMC, and assuming the N4500 has the same in-CPU TPMs that the fancier modern processors have, that POS can run Windows 11 with 'flying colours'.

Basically, if you buy (or even worse, build as a DIYer) good hardware and maintain it well, you got spectacularly screwed. Similarly, all the machines that enthusiasts might have hooked their grandmothers up with, they're all out of luck for Windows 11. If you buy low end large-OEM junk from WB every 3 years, you're fine.

Really, this is an insult on the same magnitude as Windows 8 - just like Windows 8 wanted to turn nice high-end desktops into junky tablets, Windows 11 says 'I don't care how good or expensive or high-end your computer was, if it's "old", you're SOL.'.

(Do I sound pissed? Yes. I have 6 Windows machines here - my crappiest-but-newest, an Inspiron 3780 piece of junk, is the only one that seems to meet all the requirements. An i7-7700 DIY desktop/gaming box with 64 gigs of RAM, NVME Samsung SSD, etc is borderline given the 8th-gen processor 'requirement'. Everything else is more hopeless. Oh, and my proxmox VMs are all unable to run Win11 too...)
 

VivienM

Senior member
Jun 26, 2001
486
45
91
Methinks AMD and Intel told Microsoft that without some software obsolescence, they and their investors would get screwed over by all these old ass Sandy Bridges to first round of Skylakes....that people refuse to drop fully.
And Microsoft too. If they don't charge for Windows upgrades, the last time Microsoft got any money from these Sandy Bridges and Ivy Bridges and Haswells was probably when they were shipped with a Win7 OEM licence.

This is the flip side of 'free' OS upgrades - it eviscerates the rationale to support old hardware. New OS runs on old hardware, MS doesn't get paid. New OS requires old hardware to be junked, MS gets paid on the replacement hardware.

(And FWIW, as someone with multiple Sandy Bridge laptops, including two that just hit the 10-year-mark, why would I drop them? They have modular RAM (upgraded to 16GB long ago), removable batteries that one can still somewhat source original replacements for, quad core CPUs with HT, upgradeable wifi, upgradeable storage, and if anything breaks, parts are largely plentiful on eBay. Why would I replace that with some new thing with a built-in battery that'll start swelling in 4 years and make me junk the whole thing?!)
 

VivienM

Senior member
Jun 26, 2001
486
45
91
Put some other free OS on it or leave it on Win10?
Leave it on Win10 means... junking it sometime in 2025.

But that's ignoring the bigger question - why is it that high-end Haswells or Skylake DIY systems are out of luck, while the N4500 laptop with 4 gigs of RAM and 64 gigs of eMMC at Worst Buy is "perfectly" able to run Windows 11?

(Not to mention, as someone upthread said, all these promises about Windows as a service, Windows 10 being the last version of Windows, etc. are now being revealed to be complete lies.)
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
28,263
5,313
126
Leave it on Win10 means... junking it sometime in 2025.
15 years is a fair bit of time to continue getting free support.
But that's ignoring the bigger question - why is it that high-end Haswells or Skylake DIY systems are out of luck, while the N4500 laptop with 4 gigs of RAM and 64 gigs of eMMC at Worst Buy is "perfectly" able to run Windows 11?
Because hardware eventually becomes obsolete. Windows tries to support too much hardware as it is.
(Not to mention, as someone upthread said, all these promises about Windows as a service, Windows 10 being the last version of Windows, etc. are now being revealed to be complete lies.)
Yeah, I guess that marketing were less than impressed with that idea. Even so even if Win10 was the last numbered version of Windows there's no reason why Windows would have to support every bit of hardware that's existed in perpetuity.

Theres something weird about people being outraged at not being given the latest software for free to run on the oldest hardware.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pcgeek11

VivienM

Senior member
Jun 26, 2001
486
45
91
15 years is a fair bit of time to continue getting free support.
15 years? Depending on what the actual reality is on pre-8th-gen Intel CPUs, we could be looking at 7-8 years.

My i7-7700, who knows what's going on. I can presumably enable the TPM thingy in the BIOS. But depending on what the actual limitations on pre-8th-gen CPUs are... oops. That was a high-end machine 4.5 years ago, just got freshly upgraded with an RTX 3070, I certainly thought I could get 10 years out of it when I built it. Certainly didn't expect it would meet its end due to arbitrary new Windows requirements rather than i) being too slow, or ii) having the wrong kind of I/O to stay current.

Because hardware eventually becomes obsolete. Windows tries to support too much hardware as it is.

Yeah, I guess that marketing were less than impressed with that idea. Even so even if Win10 was the last numbered version of Windows there's no reason why Windows would have to support every bit of hardware that's existed in perpetuity.

Theres something weird about people being outraged at not being given the latest software for free to run on the oldest hardware.
Are they giving me the option to pay for the latest software? No.

Once upon a time, the business model was that they would sell you upgrades and try their best to support your old hardware, in part because they made a lot more money from retail upgrades than from OEM licences. I still have my Win95 Aug. 24 1995 CD that I bought back then, I probably threw out boxed XP/7/etc upgrades. Those things were like $129CAD for the home versions; when it moved to the NT-based versions with the Pro editions, the price went up. You could probably buy an N4050 laptop with eMMC storage nowadays for the old price of a Win2000 or XP or 7 retail upgrade licence!

Now, the model is "we don't want your money. we want you to take your nice high-end hardware that can run every piece of software you ever care about, throw it into the e-waste pile, and buy new, potentially worse, hardware so we can collect a little bit of money from some OEM."

If Microsoft told me "hey VivienM, it's a free upgrade for 8th-gen-core systems and newer, but if you have a 7th-gen or older, please hand over your credit card number right over there.", I might actually give them the credit card! They're not giving me that option, instead they're telling me my quad-core systems with 16+ gigs of RAM, SSDs, etc are "obsolete" but the N4050 with 4 gigs and 64 gig eMMC at worst buy is perfectly supported.
 

Muadib

Lifer
May 30, 2000
16,895
454
126
Being from the UK this doesn't mean much to me, which holiday?

Not impressed with the Microsoft account thing. I don't mind using one but I don't want my kids having to use one, particularly the youngest.
It's Christmas Day sir! It's a thing there too! I know I'm late, but I just had to tell you. :p
 
  • Haha
Reactions: WelshBloke

amenx

Platinum Member
Dec 17, 2004
2,872
639
136
Methinks AMD and Intel told Microsoft that without some software obsolescence, they and their investors would get screwed over by all these old ass Sandy Bridges to first round of Skylakes....that people refuse to drop fully.
Even Kaby Lake (7700k, etc) launched 4 years ago not compatible.
 
  • Like
Reactions: VivienM

PowerEngineer

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2001
3,350
394
126
Shoulda waited since MS is saying that Skylake is not supported. It may still work but there's no guarantee that the final version of 11 will install.
Yes, you are right about there being no guarantee. On the other hand, I figured it was pretty much guaranteed that the TPM boards would quickly become unobtainable if they were needed. At worst, I suppose I can chalk it off as cheap insurance.
 

VivienM

Senior member
Jun 26, 2001
486
45
91
Even Kaby Lake (7700k, etc) launched 4 years ago not compatible.
And that's the great insult from my POV - my 7700 non-K, junk. Some low-end laptop with an N4050, 4 gigs of RAM, 64 gig eMMC, supported.

For the first time in Windows history, Microsoft is looking at how old your equipment is rather than how capable it is. This is an earth-shattering shift.

It's especially an insult for enthusiasts given the generalized stagnation in performance on desktop in the past 5-8 years. Intel can't get their s**t together, ship 10nm, increase single-core performance markedly, etc... so MS comes up with this crazy requirement to make enthusiasts throw out 6700s and 7700s. (And I'm sure they know fully well that most enthusiasts wouldn't appreciate the 'sit back and keep running Windows 10 until 2025' alternative)
 
  • Like
Reactions: ryan20fun

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
10,093
2,354
136
For the first time in Windows history, Microsoft is looking at how old your equipment is rather than how capable it is. This is an earth-shattering shift.
Zen 1 isn't supported either. I almost wonder if there is some random instruction added to Zen+ and Coffee Lake that Microsoft wants to baseline on.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dlerious

Muadib

Lifer
May 30, 2000
16,895
454
126
Well this has taken me down a rabbit hole. All this time I thought I was using UEFI, but wasn't. Sad thing is I had to reinstall Windows to fix it. Wasn't using TPM either, but I am now. Bring it on Windows 11!!!
 

VivienM

Senior member
Jun 26, 2001
486
45
91
Zen 1 isn't supported either. I almost wonder if there is some random instruction added to Zen+ and Coffee Lake that Microsoft wants to baseline on.
Or that they want to give themselves the option to baseline on in the first feature upgrade to Windows 11.

(There's been a suggestion that older processors with TPMs will work after a big ominous warning, which means they are giving themselves the right to unexpectedly brick those installs in a later patch or feature upgrade.)

The thing is, a little honesty would have been nice - if they had said buried somewhere 'x64-compatible processor with X and Y instruction' required, it might go over a little better and might explain why my 7700 is trash and an N4500 is not.
 

kn51

Senior member
Aug 16, 2012
684
105
106
Well this has taken me down a rabbit hole. All this time I thought I was using UEFI, but wasn't. Sad thing is I had to reinstall Windows to fix it. Wasn't using TPM either, but I am now. Bring it on Windows 11!!!
Me too. All I did was run MBR2GPT and switched the BIOS over without reinstalling.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Muadib and pcgeek11

dlerious

Senior member
Mar 4, 2004
954
226
116
Does secure boot have to be enabled? Or just a board capable of it? Also how do I know what TPM my board(s) have?
tpm.msc for what you have enabled. motherboard manual or web for what board supports.
 
Feb 4, 2009
31,380
11,779
136
Upgrade advisor says I am not eligiable, I do not support "Secure Boot" in my asrock ufei I do have an option to turn on secure boot, I think I need to get a key to do so. Should I do it? Any risk of adding secure boot to a home machine?

asrock x570 steel legend (non wifi version)
3800x
 

Cronox

Junior Member
Jun 26, 2021
13
3
36
It doesn't seem to be the case this time, Microsoft started demanding OEMs to ship TPM 2.0 enabled by default on new models ever since 2016.

and they were making arguably good use of it already:


I simply can't understand why they waited so much time without warning consumers too. All they needed to do was to start with OEMs in 2016 and announce consumers in 2018 that starting with 2020 TPM enabled devices will get front row seats for Windows updates and features. Nice 2 year cadence, no drama.
It is not so simple, because not everyone respected the agreements with Microsoft.

From that document :
TPM 2.0 Compliance for Windows 10
Windows 10 for desktop editions (Home, Pro, Enterprise, and Education)

  • Since July 28, 2016, all new device models, lines or series (or if you are updating the hardware configuration of a existing model, line or series with a major update, such as CPU, graphic cards) must implement and enable by default TPM 2.0 (details in section 3.7 of the Minimum hardware requirements page). The requirement to enable TPM 2.0 only applies to the manufacturing of new devices. For TPM recommendations for specific Windows features, see TPM and Windows Features.

The reality (unfortunately for me, new Zotac OEM system ZBOX CA621 launched last year 2020 with Ryzen 3200U):
Zotac CA621.png
So I haven't into the BIOS any option to enable the fTPM of the ryzen 3200U embedded (that is on windows 11 CPU supported list from Microsoft website) and naturally I can't install any discrete TPM chip because it is an OEM system with no header on the motherboard. So now I can't pass the win 11 validation phase.

If there had been proper communication from Microsoft, certainly cases like this would not have occurred. All of us would have checked with much more care the respect by the manufacturers of the presence of the TPM in the products purchased since we would have known, in time, that later it would become necessary to install the next windows OS.

Probably in this case it would have been difficult anyway because the option to enable the TPM was present in the product from launch until May 2020, then with a BIOS update it was later removed. But at least someone could have saved himself.

Now instead what should do anyone in a situation like mine? Microsoft continues to declare, even today, that if you have a processor included in their list you should not worry too much about the TPM presence. This because in the "ideal" world they live everyday, they probably trust that their agreements with OEMs have been respected...but if not? if the OEM refuse to comply with that agreement from 2016 and simply reply now "the TPM is not supported by this product"? they give me support against the manufacturer at this point?

That's why, as many others have said, it is always better to know things in advance so you avoid situations of this type. Just wanted to share my experience with this windows 11 launch.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: crashtech

mxnerd

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2007
6,149
886
126
If you have another machine that is Win11 capable, install Win11 on that machine and then move the disk to the machine you desired and see if it works.

I did this on my Dell (TPM 1.2 only) and move the disk to another machine that does not have TPM at all and it worked.

The TMP 2.0 requirement is for new machines that will ship with Win11 later this year.

Do not trust any software that tells you that your machine does not meet the requirement.

Try to install Win11 on the machine you want, that's the only way to tell. Even if it tells you the minimum requirement is not met, you still have other tricks to make it work.
 
Last edited:

Cronox

Junior Member
Jun 26, 2021
13
3
36
Thanks for the suggestion, however every tricks probably works because now there is only this "leaked" version ("leaked"...lol...the version that, as happens every time, they intentionally decided to distribute to the public to evaluate reactions) and they have already stated that with the "final" version things will be different.

Today also they edited again the compatibility page and now they removed every distinction between soft-floor (CPU generation - TPM 2.0) and hard-floor (TPM 1.2). There is now only soft-floor (CPU generation - TPM 2.0) and this for all, migration from win10 and new machines, I've never read differently. For now, unfortunately, this is the case. Hopefully things will change before the final release who knows at this point.

Also because from their list of CPU supported, beyond Intel Gen 6th and 7th, as remembered many times, are also excluded all Ryzen 1 xxx, Threadripper 1xxx, APU ryzen 2xxxG (mid-2018!!). A lot of good CPU
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY