Microsoft must give states Windows code, says judge

[ToBeMe]

I'd be willing to bet that this will end up working in Microsofts' favor in more ways than one! If they proceed........they (the states in question) are going to wish they had settled when all is said and done....................

 

[Tripleshot]

Not everyone wants it.

So use linux or Dos. Who gives a crap about a few people in comparison to the rest of the planet of logical thinking consumers?

Also, they are a monopoly.

Uh, I think the jury is still out on this one. Isn't that part of this lawsuit? And Unix and Linux are out there as well. If their is competition, how can there be a monopoly? Some would argue microsoft just builds a better mousetrap.

Plain and simple

Uh, that is just plain dumb. This is a very complicated case and not everyone agrees with you. That is obvious.

Why let them get away with it or let them benefit from it?

Get away with what? Benifit? This ludicrous case has cost Microsoft plenty. If microsoft wins this case,will the states pay for Microsoft's losses and costs of litigation? I doubt it.

Explain to us the benifit you are talking about. I see this lawsuit driving up costs to consumers. What do you see?

BTW, Are you one of those right wing republicans that cry foul about all those trial lawyers that supposedly the Dems garner favor from? If so, kinda hypocritcal aren't you?

 

[SinNisTeR]

i read somewhere that the source code for win2k was approximately 6 million lines.

 

[n0cmonkey]

<< Not everyone wants it.

So use linux or Dos. Who gives a crap about a few people in comparison to the rest of the planet of logical thinking consumers? >>



I use linux when I have to. The fact I do not like Windows does not make me "illogical." Nice try though



<< Also, they are a monopoly.

Uh, I think the jury is still out on this one. >>



From what I read there was a judge that said they are a monopoly.



<< Isn't that part of this lawsuit? And Unix and Linux are out there as well. >>



Neither are viable desktops.



<< If their is competition, how can there be a monopoly? Some would argue microsoft just builds a better mousetrap.

Plain and simple

Uh, that is just plain dumb. This is a very complicated case and not everyone agrees with you. That is obvious. >>



If everyone agreed with me this would have been solved already.



<< Why let them get away with it or let them benefit from it?

Get away with what? >>



Being a monopoly.



<< Benifit? This ludicrous case has cost Microsoft plenty. If microsoft wins this case,will the states pay for Microsoft's losses and costs of litigation? I doubt it.

Explain to us the benifit you are talking about. I see this lawsuit driving up costs to consumers. What do you see? >>



Microsoft's proposal to benefit from this trial. EDIT: Sorry, this isnt about the monopoly. Oops



<< BTW, Are you one of those right wing republicans that cry foul about all those trial lawyers that supposedly the Dems garner favor from? If so, kinda hypocritcal aren't you? >>



Huh? Im not republican. Im not a democrat.

 

[Bluga]

they are a monopoly. Plain and simple.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Whatever. Lets just forget it. Let Microsoft keep their code secret. They wrote it. They brea^H^H^H^H fix it. They pimp it.

New proposal: The US Government should stop using Microsoft products ASAP. Why pay when there are free alternatives that people like Tripleshot believe are ready.

 

[CocaCola5]

As long as Linux or OSX remains incapable of pressuring MS(as to the cost of a retail package of Windows XP), then MS is a monopoly. The fact though that MS can most likely push XP prices up $30 tomorrow without repercussion to its sales shows it is clearly a monopoly. Whether this is a monopoly that should be maintained and is beneficial to consumers is another argument.

 

[Linux23]

<< Unlike the Microsoft proposal, which has a five-year time limit at which point schools would have to pay Microsoft to renew their licenses and upgrade the software, the Red Hat proposal has no time limit. Red Hat will provide software upgrades through the Red Hat Network online distribution channel. >>




this blew me away. while they would be giving away free hardware/software, in the long run, the schools would have to pay M$ to renew their software licenses???


M$, what kind of deal is this? :|

 

[n0cmonkey]

<<

<< Unlike the Microsoft proposal, which has a five-year time limit at which point schools would have to pay Microsoft to renew their licenses and upgrade the software, the Red Hat proposal has no time limit. Red Hat will provide software upgrades through the Red Hat Network online distribution channel. >>




this blew me away. while they would be giving away free hardware/software, in the long run, the schools would have to pay M$ to renew their software licenses???


M$, what kind of deal is this? :| >>



Its not a very good one. But Microsoft can also set the price of their software. One copy of Win2k Super Dooper Educational Institution Server could cost $1k, $10k, $100k, or $1m. Not to mention Microsoft would be raising these children on Windows which would help out Microsoft in the long run.

 

[Nemesis77]

Here are the facts of this situation:

1. Microsoft claimed that it's impossible to separate IE from Windows
2. States cannot rely on MS's word. MS has already lied about this in the past*
3. Therefore, States must be able to verify that claim themselves.
4. To do that, they must have access to the source.

*= If you want to see what it's like when big corporation is caught with their pants down lying and falsifying evidence, click here. Read it all, it makes for a good read .

 

[Russ]

<< this blew me away. while they would be giving away free hardware/software, in the long run, the schools would have to pay M$ to renew their software licenses???

M$, what kind of deal is this? >>



It's a deal ripped right from the pages of Apple's playbook.

If Microsoft used as a legal argument that they couldn't remove IE without destroying Windows, then it's their owned damned fault (and stupidity - they should fire the lawyers responsible) that the judge made this ruling.

Of course, the idea of a bunch of bureacrats sitting around trying to understand code, when most of them can't even find the power button, would make an excellent sitcom.

Russ, NCNE

 

[wyvrn]

<< Neither are viable desktops. >>



Where did you get this idea? I, my friends, and my coworkers run Linux desktops quite well. I am teaching my wife, she can use it just fine even though she hates computers and learning them. I have taught several people, who have never used a computer before, how to install and run Linux. We play games, do office, email, web, some programing, etc etc.. It is a perfectly viable desktop. Since I have already proven my point, I would be interested to see your definition of "viable".

 

[n0cmonkey]

<<

<< Neither are viable desktops. >>



Where did you get this idea? I, my friends, and my coworkers run Linux desktops quite well. I am teaching my wife, she can use it just fine even though she hates computers and learning them. I have taught several people, who have never used a computer before, how to install and run Linux. We play games, do office, email, web, some programing, etc etc.. It is a perfectly viable desktop. Since I have already proven my point, I would be interested to see your definition of "viable". >>



When my grandfather can use it without calling me weekly. I cant use Linux as a desktop. It confuses me.

 

[wyvrn]

<< When my grandfather can use it without calling me weekly. I cant use Linux as a desktop. It confuses me. >>



That is your limitation, not the OS's. I routinely teach people to use Mandrake that have never used a computer. For instance, there are a lot of immigrants in my classes. I sometimes build them computers and teach them to use Linux, they learn just as quickly as they would at Windows 98. Another friend of mine helps people with Redhat and Suse. None of us are experts on Linux, but we can do anything (and more) on that OS than we can on Windows. And it didn't take any longer to learn it. And if my wife can learn Linux, trust me, ANYBODY can learn it

BTW, you don't have to drop to the command line to run Linux these days. It is just an added benefit for people who want more control of their OS. My favorite OS is Windows 2k, but that is just because I am more familiar with it. The more I learn about Linux, the less my Win2k box gets used.

 

[n0cmonkey]

<<

<< When my grandfather can use it without calling me weekly. I cant use Linux as a desktop. It confuses me. >>



That is your limitation, not the OS's. I routinely teach people to use Mandrake that have never used a computer. For instance, there are a lot of immigrants in my classes. I sometimes build them computers and teach them to use Linux, they learn just as quickly as they would at Windows 98. Another friend of mine helps people with Redhat and Suse. None of us are experts on Linux, but we can do anything (and more) on that OS than we can on Windows. And it didn't take any longer to learn it. And if my wife can learn Linux, trust me, ANYBODY can learn it >>



Trust me, Ive tried. I got tired of trying to learn linux and went with something easy. Ive been using OpenBSD ever since. But I dont think either are viable desktops to the mass market. With another year or two of work and a major company pre-installing it on desktops (Dell only did servers last I heard, and I dont know about IBM or Compaq) and offering it at reduced rates ($100-300 depending on how much Windows costs) it would definitely be a viable solution for many people.

 

[wyvrn]

Linux is a pefectly viable OS to the mass market. Like I said, I routinely train the "mass market" to use Linux. Sorry, but your experience does not mean people can't use Linux, it just means you can't. How long did you spend learning it as compared to the amount of time it took you to get familiar with Windows?

BTW, my current Mandrake install was all GUI from the installation to current setup. I have only used the command lines to do my Unix labs. I have far less experience in Linux than I do Windows (MCP's a plenty), but Linux is still very easy to learn for me and most people I know.

 

[n0cmonkey]

<< Linux is a pefectly viable OS to the mass market. Like I said, I routinely train the "mass market" to use Linux. Sorry, but your experience does not mean people can't use Linux, it just means you can't. How long did you spend learning it as compared to the amount of time it took you to get familiar with Windows?

BTW, my current Mandrake install was all GUI from the installation to current setup. I have only used the command lines to do my Unix labs. I have far less experience in Linux than I do Windows (MCP's a plenty), but Linux is still very easy to learn for me and most people I know. >>



Started reading about UNIX and UNIX-like OSes in 1996/7, installed Linux in 98 (redhat 5.2). Switched to Slackware 7 when it was released, later moved to Mandrake 7.1. Out of those Slackware was the easiest. I now have Debian on one machine. I think Debian is great. Could I use it as a desktop? Sure if I had a different video card. Would it be easy? No, not as easy as OpenBSD.

As far as my Windows experience goes, I started with DOS something.other. Win 3.1- Win98se were fine. I spent a short time learning WinNT before moving totally over to UNIX-like OSes. I briefly used Win2k, but it did not fit the bill. UNIX-like OSes are definitely more intuitive than Windows, thank god for good command lines.

My problems with linux were mainly poor package management. BSD ports is a great system. Slackware had no good package management, but at the time I was just starting out and doing fine (in my eyes). Debian's dselect is definitely one of the best systems out there. It ranks up there with BSD ports (coming from a BSD snob this is a good compliment ). I think Corel's distribution (taken over by someone else) had the best shot at being a great desktop. dselect makes it almost too easy.

I think its great you are teaching people to use linux. Keep it up. What software do you teach with Linux?

 

[Russ]

<< Linux is a pefectly viable OS to the mass market. >>



No it's not. A linux proponent can repeat that until their windpipes blow up, and it won't make it so. The "mass market" does not go and get training on operating systems. The "mass market" goes to the store, buys a computer, takes it home, plugs it in and turns it on. The "mass market" has a hard enough time with Windows, and is completely and utterly lost in a *nix environment.

There is nothing wrong with supporting Linux and making an effort to help the OS gain more users, but you don't accomplish that by making claims that everybody knows are ridiculous.

Russ, NCNE

 

[MadRat]

Other facts you missed:

1. The judge declared the monopoly is over software for Windows O/S's, not x86-compatible O/S's like you are trying to imply.
2. The browser has been ruled as an application, not apart of the Windows O/S.
3. The court has ruled that Microsoft used its monopoly power of the Windows O/S's to run competing browsers out of the Windows market.

This has nothing to do with Linux, Unix, or any other desktop O/S.

 

[gopunk]

Of course, the idea of a bunch of bureacrats sitting around trying to understand code, when most of them can't even find the power button, would make an excellent sitcom.

oooh... i like!

and no, linux is not ready for the mainstream... it works fine if there are no problems, but i don't think it's dumbed down enough in some areas.

 

[AaronP]

not like the politicians and lawyers are gonna look over the code personally, they'll hire experts.

 

[Barnaby W. Füi]

<<

<< Linux is a pefectly viable OS to the mass market. >>



No it's not. A linux proponent can repeat that until their windpipes blow up, and it won't make it so. The "mass market" does not go and get training on operating systems. The "mass market" goes to the store, buys a computer, takes it home, plugs it in and turns it on. The "mass market" has a hard enough time with Windows, and is completely and utterly lost in a *nix environment.

There is nothing wrong with supporting Linux and making an effort to help the OS gain more users, but you don't accomplish that by making claims that everybody knows are ridiculous.

Russ, NCNE >>


you're saying that if someone bought a computer with mandrake or suse installed (maybe redmond linux or even lindows if that turns out good), they couldn't figure out how to use it? its no harder than windows...at least not for 'normal' people's computer tasks. there's a browser sitting there just like IE, there's solitaire, a calculator, mail program, notepad-type editor, and any other basic windows program. and if lindows actually turns out how we think it will (we'll see...), they'll be able to install almost any windows program (perhaps not the best idea anyways but...). then again, i dont necessarily like the thought of them installing worms and whatnot through wine, if they just used mandrake alone they would be fine, and if mandrake included debian's apt (there's apt-rpm or something, they could more easily do that) + some gui apt manager (there are some), people could install stuff incredibly easily.

 

[Nemesis77]

In related news, DOJ has released 47 "major" comments regarding the DOJ/MS settlement as said in the Tunney-act. Most of the comments were against the settlement. Those comments can be read here. They give good insights on both sides of the issue.

 

[Russ]

<< you're saying that if someone bought a computer with mandrake or suse installed (maybe redmond linux or even lindows if that turns out good), they couldn't figure out how to use it? >>



That's exactly what I'm saying. The "mass market" consists of 90% AOL users. You need to step outside of the geek echo chamber, and see the consumer world as it is.

Russ, NCNE

 

[Barnaby W. Füi]

<<

<< you're saying that if someone bought a computer with mandrake or suse installed (maybe redmond linux or even lindows if that turns out good), they couldn't figure out how to use it? >>



That's exactly what I'm saying. The "mass market" consists of 90% AOL users. You need to step outside of the geek echo chamber, and see the consumer world as it is.

Russ, NCNE >>


hrm i suppose you're right about aol, considering you HAVE to use their software to connect. oh well :/

but someone using normal dial up could do it, mandrake is NOT that much different from windows, gui-wise.