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McCain camp throws low blow at Obama

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Originally posted by: lupi
Originally posted by: OrByte
I dont think I want my kindergarten teacher to teach my kids anything related to sex education. Thats my job.

That would pretty much be our point.

but are you trying to be sarcastic? do you really think that kindergarten teachers are going to teach about condoms?


What's to stop them "Each class or course in comprehensive sex education offered in any of grades K through 12 shall include instruction on the prevention of sexually transmitted infections, including the prevention, transmission and spread of HIV AIDS. Nothing in this Section prohibits instruction in sanitation, hygiene or traditional courses in biology."

And if you do want to feel a little creepy, reread the Ill bill for the portions to be newly added and then go look back at the SEICUS brochure. You'll happen to notice that section headings for items to be discussed and the purpose for instruction are earily similar including some of the stuff I posted in this thread.
NOOO don't even say that is "pretty much" your point. Your purpose for bringing up SEICUS and your "talking points" list is to somehow make Obama responsible for your perception that this sex education is going to teach kindergarteners and young children subjects that are not age appropriate.

Your main point is to smear Obama. Everyone can see this. And you attempt to do so very clumsily in this thread. The fact of the matter is, you are waaay off base regarding your list. and waaay off base in terms of what SB99 says it will do regarding sex education.

As for the definition of "age appropriate" By leaving out any definition the bill gives authority to local school districts and municipalities to define, FOR ITS OWN USE, what age appropriate is. That means that people with sensibility and intelligence and EXPERIENCE in working with kids get to decide what is age appropriate. That is how rulemaking works.

Now, you may choose to slant this in some negative manner, and that is your perogative. But this is how most laws and regulations are built, and a lot of thought goes into these processes.


 
Originally posted by: her209
When is it "age appropriate"?

"age appropriate", when referencing this bill and its rules, is whatever your local school administrators, PTA, parents (because they have the authority to withdrawl their children from any courses related to this bill) school counselors, and teachers decide it will be.

 
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: lupi
Originally posted by: her209
When is it "age appropriate"?

I'd feel pretty safe saying that pre-6th grade most parents would answer that in the school is not the answer.

Then shouldn't they be doing it at home? It's ultimately the parents' job but they aren't doing it. Worse, most of the molestation is done by someone the child knows, most likely in the family.

This is the key point. Parents who molest their kids aren't going to be caught unless the schools teach them about this stuff.

Oh, and Lupi, you are a fucking lying piece of slime.



 
Originally posted by: preslove
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: lupi
Originally posted by: her209
When is it "age appropriate"?

I'd feel pretty safe saying that pre-6th grade most parents would answer that in the school is not the answer.

Then shouldn't they be doing it at home? It's ultimately the parents' job but they aren't doing it. Worse, most of the molestation is done by someone the child knows, most likely in the family.

This is the key point. Parents who molest their kids aren't going to be caught unless the schools teach them about this stuff.

Oh, and Lupi, you are a fucking lying piece of slime.

I'm just glad we have an open discussion here without worrying about things like mods.
 
Originally posted by: lupi
I'm just glad we have an open discussion here without worrying about things like mods.

I may disagree with you on a lot of things but I will drink with you to that. :beer:
 
Originally posted by: OrByte
Originally posted by: lupi
Originally posted by: OrByte
I dont think I want my kindergarten teacher to teach my kids anything related to sex education. Thats my job.

That would pretty much be our point.

but are you trying to be sarcastic? do you really think that kindergarten teachers are going to teach about condoms?


What's to stop them "Each class or course in comprehensive sex education offered in any of grades K through 12 shall include instruction on the prevention of sexually transmitted infections, including the prevention, transmission and spread of HIV AIDS. Nothing in this Section prohibits instruction in sanitation, hygiene or traditional courses in biology."

And if you do want to feel a little creepy, reread the Ill bill for the portions to be newly added and then go look back at the SEICUS brochure. You'll happen to notice that section headings for items to be discussed and the purpose for instruction are earily similar including some of the stuff I posted in this thread.
NOOO don't even say that is "pretty much" your point. Your purpose for bringing up SEICUS and your "talking points" list is to somehow make Obama responsible for your perception that this sex education is going to teach kindergarteners and young children subjects that are not age appropriate.

Your main point is to smear Obama. Everyone can see this. And you attempt to do so very clumsily in this thread. The fact of the matter is, you are waaay off base regarding your list. and waaay off base in terms of what SB99 says it will do regarding sex education.

As for the definition of "age appropriate" By leaving out any definition the bill gives authority to local school districts and municipalities to define, FOR ITS OWN USE, what age appropriate is. That means that people with sensibility and intelligence and EXPERIENCE in working with kids get to decide what is age appropriate. That is how rulemaking works.

Now, you may choose to slant this in some negative manner, and that is your perogative. But this is how most laws and regulations are built, and a lot of thought goes into these processes.

Yeah, leave it to the school board, that can't go wrong. I guess you can just ignore that except for listing the guideline discussion points by age grouping that the bulk of material in that document was added to the bill with near identical text. If he doesn't want people challenging him on issues such as this, then don't vote for the bill (he did that enough) until it is properly written.
 
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: lupi
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: JD50
He already said where he got the list from, scroll up.

I saw that. I wanted to read it and I wanted to see proof that Obama agreed with every word of it rather than just portions of it.

Look, the bottom line here is that lupi doesn't even have kids IIRC. What the hell does he know about this sort of thing? I have a kid in KG and have no problem teaching him things which involve being aware where other people are not allowed to touch him. His mother and I started teaching him that at the age of 3 and it was perfectly fine. We are responsible enough to do that for our kid but we can't control what other parents do or do not do as well as when they choose to do it. Many wait too long. I am glad the schools are trying to make up for their slack. There is nothing about this stuff which is harmful.

It is always hilarious when people come on these boards making all sorts of tough talk about parenting and kids when they have zero first hand experience. They are like teenagers that think they know everything and what is even worse is that some of you just eat it up as if they are experts on the matter.

I see this post is full of fail and lack of knowledge. As I recall it's you whom doesn't have a kid as you married some chick that had gotten knocked up by someone else and complain that the actual father doesn't pay you enough for getting involved in that situation.

No wonder Cosby gets so much flak from the type posting in this thread, why worry about personal responsibility when you can have bumper to bumper legislative cover. Guess they are wasted their time talking about economic reform and rebuiling industry is the standard citizen is going to be treated as one who would have difficulty getting a job watching the counter at 7-11.

Have you read the bill before speaking about ? Did you notice that the revised purposes match extremely well with those from that sex ed insitute. Did you know their program has 6 sections with 4 tiers for age level. Did you notice that the specific areas of interest in the bill are also written with a striking similarity of those 6 areas. About the only thing that bill doesn't include is the specific guideline topics per age group, many of the tier 1 I pasted earlier, and instead simply leaves the well defined never possible to be loopholed "age appropriate" statement.

But continue to come along and make statements regarding people posting on things they don't know about, or for a more general understanding, posting present.

Sigh... I have been my stepson's daily father figure since he was 1 and he is now in kindergarden. In regards to his real father, he has a court order to pay child support and he doesn't do it like so many others. I don't want him to pay me. I want him to pay for the expenses of his son as ordered by our court of law....or do you not believe in our court system? Do you believe he is above the law? I can understand if you disagree with the law but there is a difference between that and people being allowed to act above those laws.

On a less personal note, you can complain about personal responsibility all you want but the bottom line is that people are not being personally responsible about this matter now even without the schools teaching this stuff in the way that bill describes. So, by having it in schools, we really haven't changed anything other than ensuring that the kids get taught the info that they need. There is nothing wrong with that.

I have said it before and I will say it again. The government cannot change how personally responsible the people are for better or for worse. In this case, adding this stuff in the schools is not going to stop any parents who are already responsible enough to teach it to their kids. As a parent who is in regular contact with many other parents, I guarantee it.

While I am just one guy with one opinion. At least I am a responsible parent with that opinion, unlike Lupi who is just here yapping away with zero real life experience on this matter.

Going beyond the flippant and factually incorrect post there, if they wanted to provide reinforcement training so they can tell sally that little jimmy shouldn't be putting his hands down her pants during recess, then write legislation to do that. Don't make "comprehensive" sex ed legislation so that when sally's mom tells her they are going to have a new baby and she ask the teacher what that means that she gets a medically accurate play by play of daddy nailing mommy doggie style in the bedroom. After all "comprehensive" legislation is always good, like comprehensive immigration reform, economic policy, health care reform, energy policy...
 
And we all know the legislation for the kiddies always works out well and nothing with this act would leave any child behind.
 
Originally posted by: lupi

Yeah, leave it to the school board, that can't go wrong. I guess you can just ignore that except for listing the guideline discussion points by age grouping that the bulk of material in that document was added to the bill with near identical text. If he doesn't want people challenging him on issues such as this, then don't vote for the bill (he did that enough) until it is properly written.

schools boards get it right sometimes, they get it wrong sometimes. I don't see how that matters. If you dont like what the school is teaching, speak up and say something about it.

We have always had that right, this bill doesnt change that.

As for this "identical text" business. I really dont care to understand your paranoia on this point. The bill can say that teachers can teach about STDs or sex positions or that daddy likes daddy. Bottom line: The bill also grants authority for teachers and parents, and everyone else that is associated with curriculum planning, to lay out an "age appropriate" lesson plan. And that means that it is up to the citizens and educators of Illinois to determine how this law is carried out.

From SB99
All family life courses of instruction shall satisfy the
3 following criteria:
4 (1) Factual information presented in course
5 material and instruction shall be medically accurate and
6 objective.
7 (2) All course material and instruction in classes
8 that teach sex education and discuss sexual activity or
9 behavior shall be age and developmentally appropriate.
10 (3) Course material and instruction shall include a
11 discussion of sexual abstinence as a method to prevent
12 unintended pregnancy and sexually transmitted infections,
13 including HIV.
14 (4) Course material and instruction shall present
15 the latest medically factual information regarding both
16 the possible side effects and health benefits of all
17 forms of contraception, including the success and failure
18 rates for the prevention of pregnancy and sexually
19 transmitted infections, including HIV.
20 (5) Course material and instruction shall stress
21 that sexually transmitted infections are serious possible
22 hazards of sexual activity or behavior. Pupils shall be
23 provided with statistics based on the latest medical
24 information citing the failure and success rates of all
25 contraceptive methods in preventing unintended pregnancy
26 and HIV and other sexually transmitted infections.
27 (6) Course material and instruction shall advise
28 pupils that it is unlawful for males or females of any
29 age to engage in sexual conduct or have sexual relations
30 with a minor as specified in Article 12 of the Criminal
31 Code of 1961.
32 (7) Course material and instruction shall discuss
33 and provide for the development of positive communication
34 skills to maintain healthy relationships and avoid

-7- LRB093 05269 NHT 05359 b
1 unwanted sexual activity.
2 (8) Course material and instruction shall emphasize
3 that the pupil has the power to control personal
4 behavior. Pupils shall be encouraged to base their
5 actions on reasoning, self-discipline, sense of
6 responsibility, self-control, and ethical considerations,
7 such as respect for oneself and others.
8 (9) Course material and instruction shall teach
9 pupils to not make unwanted physical and verbal sexual
10 advances and how to say no to unwanted sexual advances
11 and shall include information about verbal, physical, and
12 visual sexual harassment, including without limitation
13 nonconsensual sexual advances, nonconsensual physical
14 sexual contact, and rape by an acquaintance. The course
15 material and instruction shall contain methods of
16 preventing sexual assault by an acquaintance, including
17 exercising good judgment and avoiding behavior that
18 impairs one's judgment. The course material and
19 instruction shall emphasize personal accountability and
20 respect for others and shall also encourage youth to
21 resist negative peer pressure. The course material and
22 instruction shall inform pupils of the potential legal
23 consequences of sexual assault by an acquaintance.
24 Specifically, pupils shall be advised that it is unlawful
25 to touch an intimate part of another person, as specified
26 in the Criminal Code of 1961.
27 (10) Course material and instruction shall teach
28 male pupils about male accountability for sexual violence
29 and shall teach female students about reducing
30 vulnerability for sexual violence.
31 (11) Course material and instruction shall teach
32 pupils about counseling, medical, and legal resources
33 available to survivors of sexual abuse and sexual
34 assault, including resources for escaping violent

-8- LRB093 05269 NHT 05359 b
1 relationships.
2 (12) Course material and instruction in classes
3 that discuss sexual activity or behavior shall teach
4 pupils that it is wrong to take advantage of or to
5 exploit another person.
6 (13) Course material and instruction shall be free
7 of racial, ethnic, gender, religious, and sexual
8 orientation biases.


That is just a part of the bill. Now, if I am looking at the wrong SB99 then I apologize. But I still don't see anything that is abhorent to my sensibilities as a parent when I see what this bill is attempting to teach kids at school. I especially don't see anything abhorent to my sensibilities when I see that I can discuss with my kids teachers, anything related to the curriculum. AND I can pull my kids out of the lesson if I don't agree with what is being taught. You can read this version of SB99 to see what it is I am referring to.
 
Where is the maverick that stood for his own ideals? Where is the guy who said this was going to be a clean campaign about issues that matter? The modern day McCain and his camp are despicable. Lucky for them they're running against a black guy with a muslim sounding name in an ignorant country.
 
Originally posted by: Vic
McCain and Lupi want children to be molested. 🙁


On a rather amazing cooincidence, I was listening to a short discussion on this very matter today. I was just absolutely amazed to find out that even though Senator Present supported this bill, it failed to gain enough votes to pass and had a fair amount of critics; those critics going after it based on the generalities of the bill as written.

Hmmm, if only someone around here could have brought up those same points.
 
Originally posted by: lupi
Originally posted by: Vic
McCain and Lupi want children to be molested. 🙁


On a rather amazing cooincidence, I was listening to a short discussion on this very matter today. I was just absolutely amazed to find out that even though Senator Present supported this bill, it failed to gain enough votes to pass and had a fair amount of critics; those critics going after it based on the generalities of the bill as written.

Hmmm, if only someone around here could have brought up those same points.

It's hard to get common sense legislation passed when the critics are rabid immoral liars.
You probably believe the complete fabrication that the Global Poverty Act is the "United Nations Tax" too, right?

And hey, didn't you spend months here pretending to us that you were a Hillary supporter when you never were?....

Hmm... if only you weren't a corrupt piece of shit.
 
Originally posted by: OrByte
Originally posted by: lupi

Yeah, leave it to the school board, that can't go wrong. I guess you can just ignore that except for listing the guideline discussion points by age grouping that the bulk of material in that document was added to the bill with near identical text. If he doesn't want people challenging him on issues such as this, then don't vote for the bill (he did that enough) until it is properly written.

schools boards get it right sometimes, they get it wrong sometimes. I don't see how that matters. If you dont like what the school is teaching, speak up and say something about it.

We have always had that right, this bill doesnt change that.

As for this "identical text" business. I really dont care to understand your paranoia on this point. The bill can say that teachers can teach about STDs or sex positions or that daddy likes daddy. Bottom line: The bill also grants authority for teachers and parents, and everyone else that is associated with curriculum planning, to lay out an "age appropriate" lesson plan. And that means that it is up to the citizens and educators of Illinois to determine how this law is carried out.

From SB99
All family life courses of instruction shall satisfy the
3 following criteria:
4 (1) Factual information presented in course
5 material and instruction shall be medically accurate and
6 objective.
7 (2) All course material and instruction in classes
8 that teach sex education and discuss sexual activity or
9 behavior shall be age and developmentally appropriate.
10 (3) Course material and instruction shall include a
11 discussion of sexual abstinence as a method to prevent
12 unintended pregnancy and sexually transmitted infections,
13 including HIV.
14 (4) Course material and instruction shall present
15 the latest medically factual information regarding both
16 the possible side effects and health benefits of all
17 forms of contraception, including the success and failure
18 rates for the prevention of pregnancy and sexually
19 transmitted infections, including HIV.
20 (5) Course material and instruction shall stress
21 that sexually transmitted infections are serious possible
22 hazards of sexual activity or behavior. Pupils shall be
23 provided with statistics based on the latest medical
24 information citing the failure and success rates of all
25 contraceptive methods in preventing unintended pregnancy
26 and HIV and other sexually transmitted infections.
27 (6) Course material and instruction shall advise
28 pupils that it is unlawful for males or females of any
29 age to engage in sexual conduct or have sexual relations
30 with a minor as specified in Article 12 of the Criminal
31 Code of 1961.
32 (7) Course material and instruction shall discuss
33 and provide for the development of positive communication
34 skills to maintain healthy relationships and avoid

-7- LRB093 05269 NHT 05359 b
1 unwanted sexual activity.
2 (8) Course material and instruction shall emphasize
3 that the pupil has the power to control personal
4 behavior. Pupils shall be encouraged to base their
5 actions on reasoning, self-discipline, sense of
6 responsibility, self-control, and ethical considerations,
7 such as respect for oneself and others.
8 (9) Course material and instruction shall teach
9 pupils to not make unwanted physical and verbal sexual
10 advances and how to say no to unwanted sexual advances
11 and shall include information about verbal, physical, and
12 visual sexual harassment, including without limitation
13 nonconsensual sexual advances, nonconsensual physical
14 sexual contact, and rape by an acquaintance. The course
15 material and instruction shall contain methods of
16 preventing sexual assault by an acquaintance, including
17 exercising good judgment and avoiding behavior that
18 impairs one's judgment. The course material and
19 instruction shall emphasize personal accountability and
20 respect for others and shall also encourage youth to
21 resist negative peer pressure. The course material and
22 instruction shall inform pupils of the potential legal
23 consequences of sexual assault by an acquaintance.
24 Specifically, pupils shall be advised that it is unlawful
25 to touch an intimate part of another person, as specified
26 in the Criminal Code of 1961.
27 (10) Course material and instruction shall teach
28 male pupils about male accountability for sexual violence
29 and shall teach female students about reducing
30 vulnerability for sexual violence.
31 (11) Course material and instruction shall teach
32 pupils about counseling, medical, and legal resources
33 available to survivors of sexual abuse and sexual
34 assault, including resources for escaping violent

-8- LRB093 05269 NHT 05359 b
1 relationships.
2 (12) Course material and instruction in classes
3 that discuss sexual activity or behavior shall teach
4 pupils that it is wrong to take advantage of or to
5 exploit another person.
6 (13) Course material and instruction shall be free
7 of racial, ethnic, gender, religious, and sexual
8 orientation biases.


That is just a part of the bill. Now, if I am looking at the wrong SB99 then I apologize. But I still don't see anything that is abhorent to my sensibilities as a parent when I see what this bill is attempting to teach kids at school. I especially don't see anything abhorent to my sensibilities when I see that I can discuss with my kids teachers, anything related to the curriculum. AND I can pull my kids out of the lesson if I don't agree with what is being taught. You can read this version of SB99 to see what it is I am referring to.

Yes, the citizens always have such a key part In school board discussion. I've never seen one where they decided against the majority of parents or neglected to allow parental input on contreversial subjects.

And you may think you could have full control of what they tell your kid, but that bill would allow them to openly respond to questions of a sexual nature when prompted by the child without a lesson plan being prepared or notifications being sent out to parents.
 
I think that the response from the Obama campaign sums up the ad quite appropriately:

Obama campaign spokesman Bill Burton said in a statement. "Last week, John McCain told Time magazine he couldn?t define what honor was. Now we know why."
 
Originally posted by: lupi

Yes, the citizens always have such a key part In school board discussion. I've never seen one where they decided against the majority of parents or neglected to allow parental input on contreversial subjects.

And you may think you could have full control of what they tell your kid, but that bill would allow them to openly respond to questions of a sexual nature when prompted by the child without a lesson plan being prepared or notifications being sent out to parents.

well now I can play that game too and say that if a child blurted out an inappropriate question, then a teacher could reply that it isn't a topic of discussion because it is inappropriate. And let me ask you this; do you think this sort of thing isn't happening NOW? in schools all over the country?

More anectdotal evidence to be sure but its kind of a funny story. I remember back in 8th grade it was raining outside and so the whole class was stuck indoors for lunch. Catholic school, the teacher turns to us and says that we are old enough to see this, so she whips out a cigaretted and lights it up. Dont ask me how the conversation turned to secs but I remember her trying to explain to an 8th grade class what an orgasm feels like during that rained out lunch period. ahhhh memories... 😛

But getting back to the point. Now you and I are submitting "what if" scenarios and thats even more pointless then trying to explain rulemaking, evidently.
 
I always enjoy watching the DU'ers say how evil McCain is and how good and just Obama is.

Thanks for the laugh boys. 🙂
 
Originally posted by: Specop 007
I always enjoy watching the DU'ers say how evil McCain is and how good and just Obama is.

Thanks for the laugh boys. 🙂

what does DU mean anyway?
 
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Specop 007
I always enjoy watching the DU'ers say how evil McCain is and how good and just Obama is.

Thanks for the laugh boys. 🙂

Speaking of low blow

If the shoe fits.....And if the posters are rabid liberals.....Well......Nice shoes Red.

I actually swung by to see if there was any mention of Lehman. Course not. ATDU would rather spit out all the GO BAMA BURN MCSAME crap over and over and over. Its to the point I actually find the daily meltdown amusing.
 
Originally posted by: lupi
Going beyond the flippant and factually incorrect post there, if they wanted to provide reinforcement training so they can tell sally that little jimmy shouldn't be putting his hands down her pants during recess, then write legislation to do that. Don't make "comprehensive" sex ed legislation so that when sally's mom tells her they are going to have a new baby and she ask the teacher what that means that she gets a medically accurate play by play of daddy nailing mommy doggie style in the bedroom. After all "comprehensive" legislation is always good, like comprehensive immigration reform, economic policy, health care reform, energy policy...
 
And we all know the legislation for the kiddies always works out well and nothing with this act would leave any child behind.

Honestly man, you can take your paranoia and stick it where the sun doesn't shine. You really ought to listen to OrByte in this situation. He has it figured out.

Apparently, no one has informed you that no matter what you do you will never be in complete control of what goes on inside of those classrooms. You can have an influence if you play your cards right and you most certainly can invoke change, but you need to let go of that fact that you will not be in constant control of everything that happens in the school system. The teachers have a responsibility to teach and to make wise decisions when it comes to their lesson plans as well as when they should and shouldn't teach something based on the age of the child.

This is nothing new. It has always been like this. It will never change. The material in this bill is perfectly fine. I want America's children to know this stuff when their age is appropriate and I have enough faith in our teachers to make the right decisions most of the time. If they make the wrong decisions then I will find out about it and the right people will be informed.

We are basically giving the teachers the freedom to teach this stuff. If they screw up or abuse those freedoms then they will be taken away just like every other freedom that gets abused too much. You talk big about encouraging personal responsibility yet you are completely against the idea of allowing teachers to have the opportunity to be personally responsible for this material. Pot meet kettle.
 
Originally posted by: OrByte
Originally posted by: Specop 007
I always enjoy watching the DU'ers say how evil McCain is and how good and just Obama is.

Thanks for the laugh boys. 🙂

what does DU mean anyway?

It's freeper-speak for anyone who won't bob McCain's nob.
 
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: OrByte
Originally posted by: Specop 007
I always enjoy watching the DU'ers say how evil McCain is and how good and just Obama is.

Thanks for the laugh boys. 🙂

what does DU mean anyway?

It's freeper-speak for anyone who won't bob McCain's nob.

Now theres a poorly designed website
 
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: OrByte
Originally posted by: Specop 007
I always enjoy watching the DU'ers say how evil McCain is and how good and just Obama is.

Thanks for the laugh boys. 🙂

what does DU mean anyway?

It's freeper-speak for anyone who won't bob McCain's nob.

That sounds like DailyKOS speak for anyone who won't lick Obama's balls.
 
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