McCain and Obama on Patriotism

[Vic]

The use of the word Creator in the DoI should in no way be interpreted as referring strictly to the Christian God. Jefferson was simply establishing, in the language of the time, that certain rights are essentially a priori. That they exist because they exist. In fact, the DoI was just as much heresy as it was treason.

 

[jman19]

The only thing this post shows is that PJ is still a hack who will find ANY excuse to cut down on a democratic candidate. Par for the course. I really wish he'd just stop posting.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: dahunan
America was built off of the theft of the strongest blacks Africa had for us to steal

Did South Africa and the Dutch THEFT of all the diamond mines and such DO ANYTHING GOOD for Africa

What utter bullshit.

1. The vast majority of slaves were enslaved by other Africans and traded to the west for goods.

2. VERY little of the African slaves were brought to the US, perhaps 5%. The majority went to the Caribbean, Brazil and Spanish America. If you idea was right then these other areas would be insanely rich, but they aren't. Only 645,000 slaves were actually brought into the US, a small portion of our population.

3. Via the 1860 census only 10% of our population was slaves. And none of those were in the northern states. And as we know via history the north was where all the manufacturing and industry took place.

4. The 1860 census put our population at 31 million, by 1920 the number had grown to 106 million. During that time frame millions of Europeans immigrated to the US. In fact, by 1880 the number of immigrants to the country out numbered the number of former slaves. I.E. the number of Irish, English and Germans to enter the country between 1850 and 1880 out numbered the slaves in the country.

 

[Vic]

And as usual, PJ replies only to the weakest and most off-topic post in the thread, as opposed to those that directly refuted his comments in the OP.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: Vic
And as usual, PJ replies only to the weakest and most off-topic post in the thread, as opposed to those that directly refuted his comments in the OP.

What do you want me to reply too?

Asked about patriotism and Obama replied by talking about himself. What does that say about his psyche?

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
McCain's view could have been written by anyone in America, it is without any personal reference. Obama' view is filled with narcism. It's all about him. I wonder if Obama really views patriotism as a way for him to achieve his goals, or did the politician in him take over and try to craft a story that would add to his political appeal?

Heaven forbid that when asked what an ideal means to a person, they talk about what it means to them based on... Their personal experiences! How narcissistic!

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Nice job Pro-Jo. When Republicans are individualistic it's because that's how things work best, what America was founded on. When Democrats appeal to individualism its narcissism.

This was a good idea for a post if you hadn't crapped it up at the end with that ridiculous commentary.

This

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Patriotism is a disease.
<Snip>

I'd have stopped after the first sentence, but whatever. It's like having pride when your team wins a game. The fuck did you do to contribute? You lived in the city where they're from? Wow. It's bread for the mob.

Your post is sounds rather confused. You seem to put down your own source of enjoyment. Are you a mob?

I hate baseball.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: Vic
And as usual, PJ replies only to the weakest and most off-topic post in the thread, as opposed to those that directly refuted his comments in the OP.

What do you want me to reply too?

Asked about patriotism and Obama replied by talking about himself. What does that say about his psyche?

That he's sane and rational? What he did was provide himself as an excellent living example of just what makes America such a great country. Which he is. I imagine that McCain only wishes that he could say the same, but his father and grandfather were arguably just as accomplished as him.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy
Your second point makes no sense at all. You put quotes around "endowed by their creator," as if to turn this into an attack on religion, without acknowledging that Obama is quoting from the Declaration of Independence, the document that led to the foundation of this country. Then you make the indirect claim that guns are an unalienable right endowed by the creator... Show me one holy text, one, that says God said everyone has an unalienable right to own guns. I'm not even opposed to the right to keep and bear arms, but to claim it's some sort of divine providence is absurd.

No, no, I did NO such thing. The word, "Creator," in this context, was used because people had and still have diverse beliefs. Whether you believe your "Creator" is the Christian God or a result of millions of years or evolution, or whatever else you wish to believe, it doesn't matter. What it is saying is that all people have these rights. It has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with political philosophy.

OK, point taken. In that case, the DOI says that the creator has endowed us with the unalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Again, no mention of firearms... Yet you indicate in your prior post that Obama's vote on the DC gun ban indicates that he is attempting to take away our unalienable rights. So let me ask the question this way: Where do you find the unalienable right to firearms? Don't say the second amednment; that's a right granted by the government, and as you say, unalienable rights "means these rights are not offered by the government." So where is our unalienable right to guns?

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: Vic
And as usual, PJ replies only to the weakest and most off-topic post in the thread, as opposed to those that directly refuted his comments in the OP.

Nah.. the most embarrassing part is that he goes on to basically defend slavery ...

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: dahunan
America was built off of the theft of the strongest blacks Africa had for us to steal

Did South Africa and the Dutch THEFT of all the diamond mines and such DO ANYTHING GOOD for Africa

What utter bullshit.

1. The vast majority of slaves were enslaved by other Africans and traded to the west for goods.

2. VERY little of the African slaves were brought to the US, perhaps 5%. The majority went to the Caribbean, Brazil and Spanish America. If you idea was right then these other areas would be insanely rich, but they aren't. Only 645,000 slaves were actually brought into the US, a small portion of our population.

3. Via the 1860 census only 10% of our population was slaves. And none of those were in the northern states. And as we know via history the north was where all the manufacturing and industry took place.

4. The 1860 census put our population at 31 million, by 1920 the number had grown to 106 million. During that time frame millions of Europeans immigrated to the US. In fact, by 1880 the number of immigrants to the country out numbered the number of former slaves. I.E. the number of Irish, English and Germans to enter the country between 1850 and 1880 out numbered the slaves in the country.

Your understanding of slavery seems to need a little work.

1.) So only the sellers, not the buyers are at fault? We created the market.

2.) It's not 5%, it's about 20%. That doesn't tell the whole story though. One of the reasons for smaller amounts brought to the US was because they tended to live much longer then those in the Caribbean.

In addition, much of the wealth generated by slavery in the Caribbean was shipped back to the mother country. This is not the case in the United States where the wealth was used to build up the country itself. This is why people say the US was built on slavery.

3.) No one is arguing that other people did not also generate wealth for the US, but do you even hear what you're saying? One out of ten people in this country were enslaved. Ten percent of the population was being placed into work camps.

4.) This point is irrelevant.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: Vic
And as usual, PJ replies only to the weakest and most off-topic post in the thread, as opposed to those that directly refuted his comments in the OP.

What do you want me to reply too?

Asked about patriotism and Obama replied by talking about himself. What does that say about his psyche?

Obama talked about patriotism by discussing his own past experiences and how they have come to shape his idea of what patriotism really is. Therefore, all that says to me is that he defines patriotism based on his own individual experiences just like every other American including McCain. For some reason, you are just twisting that in some really strange way which somehow lead you to a conclusion about how his views are "filled with narcism" which I completely do not understand. Have we ever had a presidential candidate that did not believe that they were good patriots? How the heck did you get from point A to point B with this one?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

When I hear the word patriotism used by ideologues, it is Samuel Johnson's quote which comes to mind- "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."

 

[StageLeft]

When McCain loses in November do you promise to stop with these?

 

[lupi]

Originally posted by: dahunan

America was built off of the theft of the strongest blacks Africa had for us to steal

Did South Africa and the Dutch THEFT of all the diamond mines and such DO ANYTHING GOOD for Africa

You need a little reading time on the history of slavery before you try to backhand pin it on something again.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
When I hear the word patriotism used by ideologues, it is Samuel Johnson's quote which comes to mind- "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."

Amen.

McCain using the word "LIBERTY", and Obama referencing the CONSTITUTION make me sick when they both support FISA. That being said, Obama's definition of patriotism appealed to pragmatism (good), whereas McCain appealed to emotion (stupid). Why am I not surprised? Obama > McCain's summary.

 

[Fern]

Yes, they describe patriotism differently. IMO, the differences are to be expected because of their different perspectives.

McCain's seems clearly to be heavily influenced by his, and his family's, military background or service.

At first blush, Obama's reminds me very much of that you hear from immigrants to this country, which is not to be unexpected given his background. But I also suspect somewhere in there is the concept, frequently mentioned by Bill Cosby and others, that you CAN be want you want; that long past injustices are not a valid excuse for, ahem, a certain group's persistent problems. But mostly, I think this description of patriotism was crafted to be in keeping with his big campaign theme of "Hope"; and not narcism unless holding oneself out as an exmple of what hope and aspirations in the USA can achieve is narcisistic.

Cliffs: They're both politically crafted definitions.

Fern

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
When I hear the word patriotism used by ideologues, it is Samuel Johnson's quote which comes to mind- "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."

Amen.

McCain using the word "LIBERTY", and Obama referencing the CONSTITUTION make me sick when they both support FISA. That being said, Obama's definition of patriotism appealed to pragmatism (good), whereas McCain appealed to emotion (stupid). Why am I not surprised? Obama > McCain's summary.

Uhh... I don't think it's quite accurate to say that Obama is supporting FISA. He's just note voting or participating in the filibuster. Quite different than McCain's open support and him voting for it.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: dahunan

Originally posted by: Vic
And as usual, PJ replies only to the weakest and most off-topic post in the thread, as opposed to those that directly refuted his comments in the OP.

Nah.. the most embarrassing part is that he goes on to basically defend slavery ...

No, you need to understand what really built America.

It was not slave labor, if that was true then Brazil would be far richer since they got a LOT more slaves than we did.

Slavery sucked and was a horrible stain on our history, but it is in no way shape or form responsible for the greatness that America has achieved.

 

[UberNeuman]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: dahunan

Originally posted by: Vic
And as usual, PJ replies only to the weakest and most off-topic post in the thread, as opposed to those that directly refuted his comments in the OP.

Nah.. the most embarrassing part is that he goes on to basically defend slavery ...

No, you need to understand what really built America.

It was not slave labor, if that was true then Brazil would be far richer since they got a LOT more slaves than we did.

Slavery sucked and was a horrible stain on our history, but it is in no way shape or form responsible for the greatness that America has achieved.

Yeah, it was built on killing and pushing the Native Americans off their land....

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Patriotism is a disease. [... ]

Patriotism is neither good nor bad, it just is. You ought to qualify it with some context when issuing your moral pronouncements... otherwise it's just more anti-conceptual blather for your celebrated Desiderata.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Patriotism is a disease. [... ]

Patriotism is neither good nor bad, it just is. You ought to qualify it with some context when issuing your moral pronouncements... otherwise it's just more anti-conceptual blather for your celebrated Desiderata.

Patriotism just is? Patriotism has the very psychological roots I said it does. It may be, however, that because you can't see that you are forced to assume it just is. The context I was speaking in is obviously that defined by McCain. I would say also that it you who is the conceptual thinker. I'm talking about things I know.

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: lupi

Originally posted by: dahunan

America was built off of the theft of the strongest blacks Africa had for us to steal

Did South Africa and the Dutch THEFT of all the diamond mines and such DO ANYTHING GOOD for Africa

You need a little reading time on the history of slavery before you try to backhand pin it on something again.

Is that right? You gonna blame it on the africans for selling slaves?

Why don't you go buy some underage prostitutes and blame it on the pimp

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: UberNeuman

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: dahunan

Originally posted by: Vic
And as usual, PJ replies only to the weakest and most off-topic post in the thread, as opposed to those that directly refuted his comments in the OP.

Nah.. the most embarrassing part is that he goes on to basically defend slavery ...

No, you need to understand what really built America.

It was not slave labor, if that was true then Brazil would be far richer since they got a LOT more slaves than we did.

Slavery sucked and was a horrible stain on our history, but it is in no way shape or form responsible for the greatness that America has achieved.

Yeah, it was built on killing and pushing the Native Americans off their land....

TY .. That too