McCain and Obama on Patriotism

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
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A Cause Greater Than Self
by John McCain

Patriotism means more than holding your hand over your heart during the national anthem. It means more than walking into a voting booth every two or four years and pulling a lever. Patriotism is a love and a duty, a love of country expressed in good citizenship.

Patriotism and the citizenship it requires should motivate the conduct of public officials, but it also thrives in the communal spaces where government is absent, anywhere Americans come together to govern their lives and their communities - in families, churches, synagogues, museums, symphonies, the Little League, the Boy Scouts, the Girl Scouts, the Salvation Army or the VFW. They are the habits and institutions that preserve democracy. They are the ways, small and large, we come together as one country, indivisible, with freedom and justice for all. They are the responsible exercise of freedom and are indispensable to the proper functioning of a democracy. Patriotism is countless acts of love, kindness and courage that have no witness or heraldry and are especially commendable because they are unrecorded.

The patriot must not just accept, but in his or her own way protect the ideals that gave birth to our country: to stand against injustice and for the rights of all and not just one's own interests. The patriot honors the duties, the loyalties, the inspirations and the habits of mind that bind us together as Americans.

We are the heirs and caretakers of freedom - a blessing preserved with the blood of heroes down through the ages. One cannot go to Arlington Cemetery and see name upon name, grave upon grave, row upon row, without being deeply moved by the sacrifice made by those young men and women.

And those of us who live in this time, who are the beneficiaries of their sacrifice, must do our smaller and less dangerous part to protect what they gave everything to defend, lest we lose our own love of liberty.

Love of country is another way of saying love of your fellow countrymen - a truth I learned a long time ago in a country very different from ours. Patriotism is another way of saying service to a cause greater than self-interest.

If you find faults with our country, make it a better one. If you are disappointed with the mistakes of government, join its ranks and work to correct them. I hope more Americans would consider enlisting in our armed forces. I hope more would consider running for public office or working in federal, state and local governments. But there are many public causes where your service can make our country a stronger, better one than we inherited.

The good citizen and patriot knows happiness is greater than comfort, more sublime than pleasure. The cynical and indifferent know not what they miss. For their mistake is an impediment not only to our progress as a civilization but to their happiness as individuals.

A Faith in Simple Dreams
by Barack Obama

When I was a child, I lived overseas for a time with my mother. And one of my earliest memories is of her reading to me the first lines of the Declaration of Independence, explaining how its ideas applied to every American, black and white and brown alike. She taught me that those words, and the words of the United States Constitution, protected us from the brutal injustices we witnessed other people suffer during those years abroad.

I've been reminded of this recently as I've followed the brutal injustice surrounding Zimbabwe's so-called elections. For weeks, the opposition party and its supporters have been silently hunted, tortured and killed. They have been dragged from their homes in the middle of the night and strangled while their children watched. The wife of a newly elected mayor was so badly beaten that her own brother only recognized her by the skirt she wore on the day she was killed. Even voters suspected of disloyalty to the President have been herded together and thrashed for hours, all for the simple crime of casting their ballot.

We are a nation of strong and varied convictions and beliefs. We argue and debate our differences vigorously and often. But when all is said and done, we still come together as one people and pledge our allegiance not just to a place on a map or a certain leader but to the words my mother read to me years ago: "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

That is the true genius of America - a faith in simple dreams, an insistence on small miracles. It's the idea that we can tuck in our children at night and know that they are fed and clothed and safe from harm; that we can say what we think, write what we think, without hearing a sudden knock on the door; that we can have an idea and start our own business without paying a bribe; that we can participate in the political process without fear of retribution; and that our votes will be counted.

For me, it is the love and defense of these ideals that constitutes the true meaning of patriotism. They are ideals that do not belong to any particular party or group of people but call each of us to service and sacrifice for the sake of our common good.

I write this knowing that if previous generations had not taken up this call, I would not be where I am today. As a young man of mixed race, without a firm anchor in any community, without even a father's steadying hand, this essential American ideal - that our destinies are not written before we are born - has defined my life. And it is the source of my profound love for this country: because with a mother from Kansas and a father from Kenya, I know that stories like mine could only happen in America.
Like everything else these two provide very different views on the meaning of patriotism.

What I find most interesting is that the individual verse collective aspect of their views.

The Republicans Party is the party of individualism, but McCain's view on patriotism is filled with collective views. He speaks of the Boy Scouts and the Salvation Army and about joining the armed forces or working in government. Overall he seems to speak of patriotism as a group idea and being part of something larger than ones self.

The Democrat Party on the other hand is the party of collectivism. Social Security, Universal Healthcare, Social Justice etc. However, Obama's take on patriotism is filled with references to ones self. He speaks about himself constantly, his childhood, his mom, his dad etc. He sums it up by saying his story could only happen in America.

McCain's view could have been written by anyone in America, it is without any personal reference. Obama' view is filled with narcism. It's all about him. I wonder if Obama really views patriotism as a way for him to achieve his goals, or did the politician in him take over and try to craft a story that would add to his political appeal?
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
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Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Like everything else these two provide very different views on the meaning of patriotism.

What I find most interesting is that the individual verse collective aspect of their views.

The Republicans Party is the party of individualism, but McCain's view on patriotism is filled with collective views. He speaks of the Boy Scouts and the Salvation Army and about joining the armed forces or working in government. Overall he seems to speak of patriotism as a group idea and being part of something larger than ones self.

The Democrat Party on the other hand is the party of collectivism. Social Security, Universal Healthcare, Social Justice etc. However, Obama's take on patriotism is filled with references to ones self. He speaks about himself constantly, his childhood, his mom, his dad etc. He sums it up by saying his story could only happen in America.

McCain's view could have been written by anyone in America, it is without any personal reference. Obama' view is filled with narcism. It's all about him. I wonder if Obama really views patriotism as a way for him to achieve his goals, or did the politician in him take over and try to craft a story that would add to his political appeal?

You are a real piece of work, PJ. Ignorance is strength!

Patriotism in America is supposed to individualistic. Rags to riches, land of opportunity, and the American Dream. Get a clue. McCain clearly reveals himself as a fascist.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
You cannot be this stupid. Both are from different perspectives but they mean the same. One is personal while the other is (more or less) and overview.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,342
53,949
136
Nice job Pro-Jo. When Republicans are individualistic it's because that's how things work best, what America was founded on. When Democrats appeal to individualism its narcissism.

This was a good idea for a post if you hadn't crapped it up at the end with that ridiculous commentary.
 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,303
144
106
McCain's words frighten me:

Patriotism is a love and a duty, a love of country expressed in good citizenship.

that sounds more like patriotism in the military, but not for a society. Sometimes it takes bad citizenship to uphold the ideals and loyalties he speaks about regarding patriotism, just look at the civil rights movements of the 60s for one example.

And the USA was in fact founded on acts of citizenship that many considered not so good.
SO I guess our founding fathers weren't so patriotic... :(


and also, he plagerized:

"one country, indivisible, with freedom and justice for all."

:p

 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
Originally posted by: OrByte
McCain's words frighten me:

Patriotism is a love and a duty, a love of country expressed in good citizenship.

that sounds more like patriotism in the military, but not for a society. Sometimes it takes bad citizenship to uphold the ideals and loyalties he speaks about regarding patriotism, just look at the civil rights movements of the 60s for one example.

And the USA was in fact founded on acts of citizenship that many considered not so good.
SO I guess our founding fathers weren't so patriotic... :(


and also, he plagerized:

"one country, indivisible, with freedom and justice for all."

:p

I suppose it depends on what good citizenship is.

I think doing what you think is right might be classified as good citizenship. I wouldn't, therefore, classify the civil rights movement as bad citizenship.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
McCain...

The patriot must not just accept, but in his or her own way protect the ideals that gave birth to our country

I'd like to ask McCain where "the ideals that gave birth to our country" include spreading Democracy in foreign lands by use of force.

We are the heirs and caretakers of freedom

Yeah, freedom here, in the USA.

I hope more Americans would consider enlisting in our armed forces.

If our military were used only to protect American rights, borders, and lives, this wouldn't be a problem.

I know that we can't go back in time and not invade Iraq, but McCain, even with 20/20 hindsight, refuses to acknowledge that doing so was a mistake.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
Originally posted by: bamacre
McCain...

The patriot must not just accept, but in his or her own way protect the ideals that gave birth to our country

I'd like to ask McCain where "the ideals that gave birth to our country" include spreading Democracy in foreign lands by use of force.

We are the heirs and caretakers of freedom

Yeah, freedom here, in the USA.

I hope more Americans would consider enlisting in our armed forces.

If our military were used only to protect American rights, borders, and lives, this wouldn't be a problem.

I know that we can't go back in time and not invade Iraq, but McCain, even with 20/20 hindsight, refuses to acknowledge that doing so was a mistake.

I dunno man. Sometimes I think democratization by force might be a good thing in places like Zimbabwe, which Obama mentioned.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
Obama...

I've been reminded of this recently as I've followed the brutal injustice surrounding Zimbabwe's so-called elections. For weeks, the opposition party and its supporters have been silently hunted, tortured and killed. They have been dragged from their homes in the middle of the night and strangled while their children watched. The wife of a newly elected mayor was so badly beaten that her own brother only recognized her by the skirt she wore on the day she was killed. Even voters suspected of disloyalty to the President have been herded together and thrashed for hours, all for the simple crime of casting their ballot.

As tragic as this is, WTF does this have to do with the USA?

We are a nation of strong and varied convictions and beliefs. We argue and debate our differences vigorously and often. But when all is said and done, we still come together as one people and pledge our allegiance not just to a place on a map or a certain leader but to the words my mother read to me years ago: "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Sounds good, but Obama's record on privacy, especially recently, and his support of DC's gun ban, conflict with this entire paragraph. Unalienable rights, Mr. Obama, "endowed by their Creator," Mr. Obama, that means these rights are not offered by the government, but that it's the government's job to protect them. Who are you to trample on the rights given to us by our Creator?

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,138
6,617
126
Patriotism is a disease. It is a false god, a religion, an idiology, a source of nationalism and war and hate. It is the essence of self hate, the externalization of the absence of self worth and the substitution of diefication manufactured out there in the world by bass psychotic adulation.

I am a piece of shit, but I love country X which is the greatest country in the world and I will kill you if you say otherwise because if you do you threaten my lie and expose me to potential memory. I may remember and feel again how worthless I was made to feel as a child. You will not mess with my denial, you will not take away my shield. I am worthless, but I'm part of the good, damit.

The only way you can love your neighbor, your fellow American in this case, is if you love yourself. Until you love you you will always be a danger to yourself and others.

You come before anything. It is the individual that matters. You are all that is good in the universe. The appeal to the collective as the source of good that is not based on the value of the self is pure evil. Real colectivism, the love of others, can really happen only after the love of the self is real. You see this Zen drawings on the ten stages of enlightenment, the final being the big fat Santa in the market place smiling and living life.

Self love gives rise to compassion and empathy. There is only love and love is being. Love is the end of boundry. There is no you apart from me or me apart from you.

All our madness is the illusions of the ego.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
Originally posted by: Atreus21
I dunno man. Sometimes I think democratization by force might be a good thing in places like Zimbabwe, which Obama mentioned.

It doesn't seem to work for us to have our soldiers die for someone else's democracy. It's the citizens of Zimbabwe that should be fighting against Mugabe's thugs for their own freedom.

If we went in, we'd create tribalism and local strongmen just like in Afghanistan and Iraq.
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
20
81
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Patriotism is a disease. It is a false god, a religion, an idiology, a source of nationalism and war and hate. It is the essence of self hate, the externalization of the absence of self worth and the substitution of diefication manufactured out there in the world by bass psychotic adulation.

I am a piece of shit, but I love country X which is the greatest country in the world and I will kill you if you say otherwise because if you do you threaten my lie and expose me to potential memory. I may remember and feel again how worthless I was made to feel as a child. You will not mess with my denial, you will not take away my shield. I am worthless, but I'm part of the good, damit.

The only way you can love your neighbor, your fellow American in this case, is if you love yourself. Until you love you you will always be a danger to yourself and others.

You come before anything. It is the individual that matters. You are all that is good in the universe. The appeal to the collective as the source of good that is not based on the value of the self is pure evil. Real colectivism, the love of others, can really happen only after the love of the self is real. You see this Zen drawings on the ten stages of enlightenment, the final being the big fat Santa in the market place smiling and living life.

Self love gives rise to compassion and empathy. There is only love and love is being. Love is the end of boundry. There is no you apart from me or me apart from you.

All our madness is the illusions of the ego.

I'd have stopped after the first sentence, but whatever. It's like having pride when your team wins a game. The fuck did you do to contribute? You lived in the city where they're from? Wow. It's bread for the mob.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
Originally posted by: Atreus21
I dunno man. Sometimes I think democratization by force might be a good thing in places like Zimbabwe, which Obama mentioned.

It doesn't seem to work for us to have our soldiers die for someone else's democracy. It's the citizens of Zimbabwe that should be fighting against Mugabe's thugs for their own freedom.

If we went in, we'd create tribalism and local strongmen just like in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Agreed. Let Africans take care of their own problems.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
Originally posted by: Atreus21
I dunno man. Sometimes I think democratization by force might be a good thing in places like Zimbabwe, which Obama mentioned.

Political philosophy, like religion, cannot be spread by force. Belief cannot be spread by force. Only by example can we spread democracy.

John Quincy Adams....

And now, friends and countrymen, if the wise and learned philosophers of the elder world, the first observers of nutation and aberration, the discoverers of maddening ether and invisible planets, the inventors of Congreve rockets and Shrapnel shells, should find their hearts disposed to enquire what has America done for the benefit of mankind?

Let our answer be this: America, with the same voice which spoke herself into existence as a nation, proclaimed to mankind the inextinguishable rights of human nature, and the only lawful foundations of government. America, in the assembly of nations, since her admission among them, has invariably, though often fruitlessly, held forth to them the hand of honest friendship, of equal freedom, of generous reciprocity.

She has uniformly spoken among them, though often to heedless and often to disdainful ears, the language of equal liberty, of equal justice, and of equal rights.

She has, in the lapse of nearly half a century, without a single exception, respected the independence of other nations while asserting and maintaining her own.

She has abstained from interference in the concerns of others, even when conflict has been for principles to which she clings, as to the last vital drop that visits the heart.

She has seen that probably for centuries to come, all the contests of that Aceldama the European world, will be contests of inveterate power, and emerging right.

Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be.

But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy.

She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all.

She is the champion and vindicator only of her own.

She will commend the general cause by the countenance of her voice, and the benignant sympathy of her example.

She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom.

The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force....

She might become the dictatress of the world. She would be no longer the ruler of her own spirit....

[America's] glory is not dominion, but liberty. Her march is the march of the mind. She has a spear and a shield: but the motto upon her shield is, Freedom, Independence, Peace. This has been her Declaration: this has been, as far as her necessary intercourse with the rest of mankind would permit, her practice.

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,138
6,617
126
Originally posted by: Atreus21
Originally posted by: bamacre
McCain...

The patriot must not just accept, but in his or her own way protect the ideals that gave birth to our country

I'd like to ask McCain where "the ideals that gave birth to our country" include spreading Democracy in foreign lands by use of force.

We are the heirs and caretakers of freedom

Yeah, freedom here, in the USA.

I hope more Americans would consider enlisting in our armed forces.

If our military were used only to protect American rights, borders, and lives, this wouldn't be a problem.

I know that we can't go back in time and not invade Iraq, but McCain, even with 20/20 hindsight, refuses to acknowledge that doing so was a mistake.

I dunno man. Sometimes I think democratization by force might be a good thing in places like Zimbabwe, which Obama mentioned.

Sometimes I like to go out at night when everybody sleeps and scream at my tomatoes to grow, 'you sluggard bastards, grow, I want some fucking tomatoes'. I see no reason though, with our technical capacity, why a piano couldn't somehow fall 50,000 feet from the shy and kill that guy. Not sure yet whether Yamaha or Baldwin.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
Originally posted by: Atreus21
I dunno man. Sometimes I think democratization by force might be a good thing in places like Zimbabwe, which Obama mentioned.

It doesn't seem to work for us to have our soldiers die for someone else's democracy. It's the citizens of Zimbabwe that should be fighting against Mugabe's thugs for their own freedom.

If we went in, we'd create tribalism and local strongmen just like in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Agreed. Let Africans take care of their own problems.

America was built off of the theft of the strongest blacks Africa had for us to steal

Did South Africa and the Dutch THEFT of all the diamond mines and such DO ANYTHING GOOD for Africa

 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Atreus21
I dunno man. Sometimes I think democratization by force might be a good thing in places like Zimbabwe, which Obama mentioned.

Political philosophy, like religion, cannot be spread by force. Belief cannot be spread by force. Only by example can we spread democracy.

How about Protecting the ideals of Democracy by force?


 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,303
144
106
Originally posted by: Atreus21
Originally posted by: OrByte
McCain's words frighten me:

Patriotism is a love and a duty, a love of country expressed in good citizenship.

that sounds more like patriotism in the military, but not for a society. Sometimes it takes bad citizenship to uphold the ideals and loyalties he speaks about regarding patriotism, just look at the civil rights movements of the 60s for one example.

And the USA was in fact founded on acts of citizenship that many considered not so good.
SO I guess our founding fathers weren't so patriotic... :(


and also, he plagerized:

"one country, indivisible, with freedom and justice for all."

:p

I suppose it depends on what good citizenship is.

I think doing what you think is right might be classified as good citizenship. I wouldn't, therefore, classify the civil rights movement as bad citizenship.

Sometimes doing what you think is right isn't lawful or right by law. Again going back to civil rights, was Rosa Parks a good citizen in the eyes of the law? That's why I cringe wen I read McCain claiming that patriotism is "expressed by being a good citizen," because by stating that, I don't think he embraces an individuals moral compass but rather a 'collective good' not associated with morality. unfortunately for him, individuals follow their own moral compass, which is why plenty of people think a right to choose is OK, while plenty of people think we need to defend the right of a baby to live as being OK (Using just one example.)

In short, patriotism and individual morality created this country. I think Obama's words more closely represent this ideal, while McCains words seem to promote a similar viewpoint, however I question whether he believes individuals are capable of making the right and moral decision. it's almost like he wants us all to be apathetic and allow our country to make its laws and conduct its business while we stand on the sidelines and wave our flags (which means to him we are patriotic by being 'good citizens'.) Then he states that if we don't like how our country is run then we need to join in the process to change what it is we don't like....sounds good to me! when is it MY TURN to be President!? :p Thanks for throwing me a bone McCain. I don't necessarily disagree with him, but I also don't see how reasonable it is just to simply state that, "If you find faults with our country, make it a better one. If you are disappointed with the mistakes of government, join its ranks and work to correct them." Sometimes, as again illustrated in the civil rights movement, it takes a not-so-good citizen like a Rosa Parks, to change that which we do not like about our government. McCain needs to be willing to embrace that idea in order for me to believe in him.

Hell I would go so far as to even claim that Rosa Parks intent was NOT to be Patriotic, but the movement that followed defines Patriotism.

Anyway's that's all I'm saying. I'm getting off my soapbox for now :)
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
Originally posted by: dahunan
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
Originally posted by: Atreus21
I dunno man. Sometimes I think democratization by force might be a good thing in places like Zimbabwe, which Obama mentioned.

It doesn't seem to work for us to have our soldiers die for someone else's democracy. It's the citizens of Zimbabwe that should be fighting against Mugabe's thugs for their own freedom.

If we went in, we'd create tribalism and local strongmen just like in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Agreed. Let Africans take care of their own problems.

America was built off of the theft of the strongest blacks Africa had for us to steal

Did South Africa and the Dutch THEFT of all the diamond mines and such DO ANYTHING GOOD for Africa

We can't dwell on the past forever. These nations are now free. Let them deal with it themselves.
 
Feb 6, 2007
16,432
1
81
Originally posted by: bamacre
Obama...

I've been reminded of this recently as I've followed the brutal injustice surrounding Zimbabwe's so-called elections. For weeks, the opposition party and its supporters have been silently hunted, tortured and killed. They have been dragged from their homes in the middle of the night and strangled while their children watched. The wife of a newly elected mayor was so badly beaten that her own brother only recognized her by the skirt she wore on the day she was killed. Even voters suspected of disloyalty to the President have been herded together and thrashed for hours, all for the simple crime of casting their ballot.

As tragic as this is, WTF does this have to do with the USA?

We are a nation of strong and varied convictions and beliefs. We argue and debate our differences vigorously and often. But when all is said and done, we still come together as one people and pledge our allegiance not just to a place on a map or a certain leader but to the words my mother read to me years ago: "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Sounds good, but Obama's record on privacy, especially recently, and his support of DC's gun ban, conflict with this entire paragraph. Unalienable rights, Mr. Obama, "endowed by their Creator," Mr. Obama, that means these rights are not offered by the government, but that it's the government's job to protect them. Who are you to trample on the rights given to us by our Creator?

The comparison to Zimbabwe is used to illustrate the point that, for all the differences we may have with one another ideologically (Republican vs. Democrat for example), at the end of the day, we come together as Americans, unified by our faith in our Constitution. We aren't killing each other in the streets based on differences of opinion. That's the strength of American democracy; we don't need to agree with each other all the time, yet we can still remain unified in our love of American democracy, freedom, etc.

Your second point makes no sense at all. You put quotes around "endowed by their creator," as if to turn this into an attack on religion, without acknowledging that Obama is quoting from the Declaration of Independence, the document that led to the foundation of this country. Then you make the indirect claim that guns are an unalienable right endowed by the creator... Show me one holy text, one, that says God said everyone has an unalienable right to own guns. I'm not even opposed to the right to keep and bear arms, but to claim it's some sort of divine providence is absurd.

As to the OP... McCain's speech felt hackneyed. I felt like I was reading the back of a cereal box trying to explain to kids what patriotism is. Obama takes these same principles of patriotism but applies them to real world situations to put them in perspective. Obama's prose is much, much better than McCain's; it's not hard to see why he is praised for his ability to make pretty speeches.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,138
6,617
126
Originally posted by: jonks
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Patriotism is a disease. It is a false god, a religion, an idiology, a source of nationalism and war and hate. It is the essence of self hate, the externalization of the absence of self worth and the substitution of diefication manufactured out there in the world by bass psychotic adulation.

I am a piece of shit, but I love country X which is the greatest country in the world and I will kill you if you say otherwise because if you do you threaten my lie and expose me to potential memory. I may remember and feel again how worthless I was made to feel as a child. You will not mess with my denial, you will not take away my shield. I am worthless, but I'm part of the good, damit.

The only way you can love your neighbor, your fellow American in this case, is if you love yourself. Until you love you you will always be a danger to yourself and others.

You come before anything. It is the individual that matters. You are all that is good in the universe. The appeal to the collective as the source of good that is not based on the value of the self is pure evil. Real colectivism, the love of others, can really happen only after the love of the self is real. You see this Zen drawings on the ten stages of enlightenment, the final being the big fat Santa in the market place smiling and living life.

Self love gives rise to compassion and empathy. There is only love and love is being. Love is the end of boundry. There is no you apart from me or me apart from you.

All our madness is the illusions of the ego.

I'd have stopped after the first sentence, but whatever. It's like having pride when your team wins a game. The fuck did you do to contribute? You lived in the city where they're from? Wow. It's bread for the mob.

Your post is sounds rather confused. You seem to put down your own source of enjoyment. Are you a mob?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,138
6,617
126
Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy
Originally posted by: bamacre
Obama...

I've been reminded of this recently as I've followed the brutal injustice surrounding Zimbabwe's so-called elections. For weeks, the opposition party and its supporters have been silently hunted, tortured and killed. They have been dragged from their homes in the middle of the night and strangled while their children watched. The wife of a newly elected mayor was so badly beaten that her own brother only recognized her by the skirt she wore on the day she was killed. Even voters suspected of disloyalty to the President have been herded together and thrashed for hours, all for the simple crime of casting their ballot.

As tragic as this is, WTF does this have to do with the USA?

We are a nation of strong and varied convictions and beliefs. We argue and debate our differences vigorously and often. But when all is said and done, we still come together as one people and pledge our allegiance not just to a place on a map or a certain leader but to the words my mother read to me years ago: "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Sounds good, but Obama's record on privacy, especially recently, and his support of DC's gun ban, conflict with this entire paragraph. Unalienable rights, Mr. Obama, "endowed by their Creator," Mr. Obama, that means these rights are not offered by the government, but that it's the government's job to protect them. Who are you to trample on the rights given to us by our Creator?

The comparison to Zimbabwe is used to illustrate the point that, for all the differences we may have with one another ideologically (Republican vs. Democrat for example), at the end of the day, we come together as Americans, unified by our faith in our Constitution. We aren't killing each other in the streets based on differences of opinion. That's the strength of American democracy; we don't need to agree with each other all the time, yet we can still remain unified in our love of American democracy, freedom, etc.

Your second point makes no sense at all. You put quotes around "endowed by their creator," as if to turn this into an attack on religion, without acknowledging that Obama is quoting from the Declaration of Independence, the document that led to the foundation of this country. Then you make the indirect claim that guns are an unalienable right endowed by the creator... Show me one holy text, one, that says God said everyone has an unalienable right to own guns. I'm not even opposed to the right to keep and bear arms, but to claim it's some sort of divine providence is absurd.

As to the OP... McCain's speech felt hackneyed. I felt like I was reading the back of a cereal box trying to explain to kids what patriotism is. Obama takes these same principles of patriotism but applies them to real world situations to put them in perspective. Obama's prose is much, much better than McCain's; it's not hard to see why he is praised for his ability to make pretty speeches.

Hehe, nice. When I read his post I had similar thoughts. Maybe God packs a 9 million mm
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy
Your second point makes no sense at all. You put quotes around "endowed by their creator," as if to turn this into an attack on religion, without acknowledging that Obama is quoting from the Declaration of Independence, the document that led to the foundation of this country. Then you make the indirect claim that guns are an unalienable right endowed by the creator... Show me one holy text, one, that says God said everyone has an unalienable right to own guns. I'm not even opposed to the right to keep and bear arms, but to claim it's some sort of divine providence is absurd.

No, no, I did NO such thing. The word, "Creator," in this context, was used because people had and still have diverse beliefs. Whether you believe your "Creator" is the Christian God or a result of millions of years or evolution, or whatever else you wish to believe, it doesn't matter. What it is saying is that all people have these rights. It has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with political philosophy.