May Day 2008

[Jhhnn]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Jhhnn

Illegals come here to work, and if we want to stop them from coming, we need a system that prevents them from working. Something like national ID and a govt hotline database that employers would need to use before hiring anybody, or employing subcontractors who can't verify that they've complied with that. Very straightforward.

we already have a system in place. when you get a job you file paperwork stateing youre legal to work. A national ID card wont change anything. As far as national hotlinegoes...to do what exactly? Verify a SSN? There are already systems in place that do that, that some companies use (although not for that purpose). So again we're back to...we dont need NEW laws we need to enfore the ones we already have.

A magnificent shower of hogwash, Blackangst1. Sure, you claim that such and such is your ssn- and nobody ever checks it. You could have money from 8 states goint into one account and the system couldn't care less. Yeh, sure, somewhere down the road, somebody will care, maybe, but by then you've moved form Wendy's to BK to Taco Bell to a lot of places... and used several different ssn's in the process. eventually, people will hit on a combination of circumstances that allow them to keep working for somebody like a meatpacking outfit, laundry, janitorial service, smalltime contractor, whatever- they get lost in the shuffle, which is what they and their employer want.

If busted, employers just need to stick to their story- "He showed me his ID, and his green card, Honest! Swear to God!" and there's nobody and no way to prove anything to the contrary.

National picture ID and a pre-employment hotline database solves all that- along with stiff fines for non-compliance. It verifies *identity*. Employers can't hire you if you can't meet those criteria, except in very casual under the table day labor scenarios... and that's not how the vast majority of illegals find work, anyway.

You're either woefully ignorant of how the system works and how easy it is for employers to knowingly hire illegals, or you're just shilling, stirring the pot of anti-illegal emotionalism.

Don't worry, though, because the guys at the top like it just the way it is- a win-win scenario for them. Cheap disposable labor and raving idiots to keep it that way...

There's a price for everything, and the price of stopping the flood of illegals into this country is as I've outlined. very simple. Border fences, deportations, and all the usual ravings won't get the job done, aren't even designed to get the job done, and anybody w/ half a brain should be able to figure that out. If we're not willing to pay that price, then we're not willing to solve the problem.

Well, maybe a border fence would work, if we're willing to put up something like the Berlin Wall, and pay for it... Just remember, it keeps you in just as effectively as it keeps them out... and it'd be a helluva statement for a supposedly free country, as well.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Jhhnn

Illegals come here to work, and if we want to stop them from coming, we need a system that prevents them from working. Something like national ID and a govt hotline database that employers would need to use before hiring anybody, or employing subcontractors who can't verify that they've complied with that. Very straightforward.

we already have a system in place. when you get a job you file paperwork stateing youre legal to work. A national ID card wont change anything. As far as national hotlinegoes...to do what exactly? Verify a SSN? There are already systems in place that do that, that some companies use (although not for that purpose). So again we're back to...we dont need NEW laws we need to enfore the ones we already have.

A magnificent shower of hogwash, Blackangst1. Sure, you claim that such and such is your ssn- and nobody ever checks it. You could have money from 8 states goint into one account and the system couldn't care less. Yeh, sure, somewhere down the road, somebody will care, maybe, but by then you've moved form Wendy's to BK to Taco Bell to a lot of places... and used several different ssn's in the process. eventually, people will hit on a combination of circumstances that allow them to keep working for somebody like a meatpacking outfit, laundry, janitorial service, smalltime contractor, whatever- they get lost in the shuffle, which is what they and their employer want.

If busted, employers just need to stick to their story- "He showed me his ID, and his green card, Honest! Swear to God!" and there's nobody and no way to prove anything to the contrary.

National picture ID and a pre-employment hotline database solves all that- along with stiff fines for non-compliance. It verifies *identity*. Employers can't hire you if you can't meet those criteria, except in very casual under the table day labor scenarios... and that's not how the vast majority of illegals find work, anyway.

You're either woefully ignorant of how the system works and how easy it is for employers to knowingly hire illegals, or you're just shilling, stirring the pot of anti-illegal emotionalism.

Don't worry, though, because the guys at the top like it just the way it is- a win-win scenario for them. Cheap disposable labor and raving idiots to keep it that way...

There's a price for everything, and the price of stopping the flood of illegals into this country is as I've outlined. very simple. Border fences, deportations, and all the usual ravings won't get the job done, aren't even designed to get the job done, and anybody w/ half a brain should be able to figure that out. If we're not willing to pay that price, then we're not willing to solve the problem.

Well, maybe a border fence would work, if we're willing to put up something like the Berlin Wall, and pay for it... Just remember, it keeps you in just as effectively as it keeps them out... and it'd be a helluva statement for a supposedly free country, as well.

Manic today? you didnt read a fucking word I said.

Maybe youre right though. I mean, a national ID card couldnt be forged could it? Talk about ignorant. And how would creating a national ID force employers to verify SSN's? Like I said, they already can. and dont you have to provide valid ID when you fill out your I-9?

 

[TheSlamma]

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Originally posted by: RichardE
Going to be interesting when they finally push people too far and public opinion becomes vile enough that we start doing mass deportations.

Going to be interesting when they are finally all deported and then prices for common goods goes through the roof when companies won't be able to pay Americans to do the work that they are getting done for well below market value by illegal immigrants.

Public opinion will be screams for massive importation of workers.

So you are saying it's okay to pay illegals less then minimum wage with no benefits? Nice.. That sounds very republican to me.. but then again you do that a lot RiW

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: blackangst1
It's unconstitutional to round up those who are here illegally? So whats with the ICE raids?

No, that's not what I said.

BoomerD said that they should go to those rallies and start checking everyone's ID. That would be an unconstitutional unreasonable search of people as you would in effect be searching them for no other reason then that they were participating in a political protest.

Got it. I misunderstood.

I think its cloudy. To me it's similar to DUI checkpoints which ARE constitutional.

*shrug*

DUI checkpoints are intended to combat an immediate threat. Every person identified as over the legal limit at a DUI checkpoint is a hazard on the road NOW.

It's impossible to argue that someone without an ID at a political protest is even remotely in the same category. First, they may well be a U.S. citizen or a legal alien. Second, even if thay are illegal, what's the imminent threat? And you're going to stop every person, demand to see an ID, and take everyone without an ID into custody - possibly for several hours - to make sure they're not illegals? You think THIS trade-off of loss of liberty versus the gain of . . . what, exactly? - is worth it?

You know, it's absolutely stunning how the same people who keep telling us that we shouldn't do anything drastic to combat global warming - despite the strong scientific consensus that it really is a man-made problem, with dire consequences - are the quickest to tell us we SHOULD take drastic measures - include suffering significant curtailment of liberties - to combat illegal immigration, despite a complete LACK of any comprehensive cost/benefit analysis telling us that we're actually suffering a significant loss, or any loss at all/

My analysis is that illegals are the classic scapegoat needed by reactionaries to blame all our problems on, and rational analysis take a back seat. It's really only a matter of degree that separates xenophobic know-nothings from the lynch-mobs of old.

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: blackangst1
Only in america can people who have broken the law and continue to break the law gather and protest for rights.

Ship them all the fuck out.

Black people in the South in the early 1960's broke the laws (such as attempting to attend segregated universities or disobeying Jim Crow laws) and protested for their rights. I guess you were one of the leading advocates for jailing their asses.

nice poke in the eye, prick.

My previous post was over the top - I apologize for that. But I was trying to make a point.

Usually, you say things that are intelligent. Even when I disagree with you (which is most of the time), I usually recognize that there's a brain behind what you write.

Not so in this thread.

Naturally, you can't see that when laws are unjust, people will break them and protest for change. What do you think would happen, for example, if abortions were made illegal?

Do you really believe that illegal immigration is as black and white as your angry little posts make it out to be? Do you really equate the "lawbreaking" implicit in illegal immigration with what we normally think of as "criminal" behavior?

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: blackangst1
Only in america can people who have broken the law and continue to break the law gather and protest for rights.

Ship them all the fuck out.

Black people in the South in the early 1960's broke the laws (such as attempting to attend segregated universities or disobeying Jim Crow laws) and protested for their rights. I guess you were one of the leading advocates for jailing their asses.

nice poke in the eye, prick.

My previous post was over the top - I apologize for that. But I was trying to make a point.

Usually, you say things that are intelligent. Even when I disagree with you (which is most of the time), I usually recognize that there's a brain behind what you write.

Not so in this thread.

Naturally, you can't see that when laws are unjust, people will break them and protest for change. What do you think would happen, for example, if abortions were made illegal?

Do you really believe that illegal immigration is as black and white as your angry little posts make it out to be? Do you really equate the "lawbreaking" implicit in illegal immigration with what we normally think of as "criminal" behavior?

I appreciate the apology. I dont apologize, however, to point out your blatent disregard to our sovereignty as a nation (are you American?).

Originally posted by: shira
You think THIS trade-off of loss of liberty versus the gain of . . . what, exactly? - is worth it?

What loss of liberty exactly?

Originally posted by: shira
to combat illegal immigration, despite a complete LACK of any comprehensive cost/benefit analysis telling us that we're actually suffering a significant loss, or any loss at all

So...making a decision to enforce our laws should be considered in regards to cost? Have you heard the phrase the cost is higher than the price? It's not going to happen, but even if we could wave a wand and *poof* all illegals were gone...this country isnt going to spiral out of control. Ever heard of principles? THAT is why we need to enfore our laws.


Let me ask you something. I've only asked one other person on this board this question (Dave) but I'd like to ask you. Obviously you support some kind of program to integrate illegals into society legally. Right? I wouldnt think you would simply want to keep the status quo willey nilley. Would you?

So. How exactly would you implement this? More specifically, would you want to see the same requirements of legalization as LEGAL immigrants? Or would you support some kind of fast track system? Which requirements that LEGAL immigrants have would you bypass? Do you even have a clue how legal immigration works? I dont ask this to be rude, but most people dont have a clue. I do. Ive not only immigrated my wife, but also helped a friend immigrate here via a work visa. I know intimately how it works.

So. Same requirements? Or do you even know what the requirements are?

Lets say you want to bypass requirements. Which means...no criminal background check. No background check from the original host country. No validation of identity. No health screening. Sound good?

Which brings me to my question. If my wife stood before you and asked "Why should someone who came here illegally get their green card/work permit/path to citizenship easier and less costly than someone like me who did it legally?"

You know what Dave said? Tough shit. This is how we are dealing with it. Maybe your husband should have smuggled you in.

What say you?

 

[Jhhnn]

I read every word, Blackangst1, more than once. What you said in no way supports reality- employers *knowingly* hire illegals, because they can get away with it. And i think you're the one suffering from a willfull lack of comprehension. I said it would take 3 things- national ID, a mandatory verification between govt and employers, and a database/personnel to support that, along with stiff fines for non-compliance by employers. Right now, all the verification that exists is that names and numbers match, and that's completely voluntary, anyway. John Doe or Juan Gomez can hold 11 jobs in 9 different states, simultaneously, just so long as the names and numbers match up. And if they don't at the end of the year, the employer has no liability whatsoever. I-9? It's a joke.

Forge the card? OK, that won't get you past the mandatory verification. Employer fails to verify? that won't get past the IRS or the SS people if it's set up right in the first place... only small outfits can get away with paying under the table for any length of time at all...

The part that you, and all the other anti-illegal folks refuse to accept, is that employers are the ones drawing illegals into this country, who want them here, who are willing to work with them to get around the half-assed system we have today. It's like drugs- there's demand, therefore supply. The only way to curtail the supply is to limit demand, and that won't happen so long as the law is structured in such a way that employers can easily skate around it...

Which is not to say that I actually support such a system, but that's what we'll have to do if we really want to curtail illegal immigration rather than rave about it, use it as a convenient soapbox to preach ignorance and stupidity to the masses...

 

[BradAtWork]

Mandatory detention

Serious Win.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
I read every word, Blackangst1, more than once. What you said in no way supports reality- employers *knowingly* hire illegals, because they can get away with it. And i think you're the one suffering from a willfull lack of comprehension. I said it would take 3 things- national ID, a mandatory verification between govt and employers, and a database/personnel to support that, along with stiff fines for non-compliance by employers. Right now, all the verification that exists is that names and numbers match, and that's completely voluntary, anyway. John Doe or Juan Gomez can hold 11 jobs in 9 different states, simultaneously, just so long as the names and numbers match up. And if they don't at the end of the year, the employer has no liability whatsoever. I-9? It's a joke.

Forge the card? OK, that won't get you past the mandatory verification. Employer fails to verify? that won't get past the IRS or the SS people if it's set up right in the first place... only small outfits can get away with paying under the table for any length of time at all...

The part that you, and all the other anti-illegal folks refuse to accept, is that employers are the ones drawing illegals into this country, who want them here, who are willing to work with them to get around the half-assed system we have today. It's like drugs- there's demand, therefore supply. The only way to curtail the supply is to limit demand, and that won't happen so long as the law is structured in such a way that employers can easily skate around it...

Which is not to say that I actually support such a system, but that's what we'll have to do if we really want to curtail illegal immigration rather than rave about it, use it as a convenient soapbox to preach ignorance and stupidity to the masses...

Not sure where you got the idea that I dont believe "that employers are the ones drawing illegals into this country, who want them here, who are willing to work with them to get around the half-assed system we have today"...I didnt say anything remotely close. What I said was, we already have a verification system in place that isnt being used extensively. Why the hell should we create yet another verification? What, by calling it "manditory" will make it work? Please. Even you know better.

The only area we disagree is, first, you dont see a problem with people coming over our border illegally, and second, how to go about fixing it. you think we need to spend billions creating a system that couldnt be any better than whats in place, and my opinion that we need to enfore the laws and use the tools we already have.

But I also know you like to pick fights, so maybe you see something else.

 

[magomago]

The biggest problem with this I see is that that they seem to be politically active. Of course you have to cut out everyone who really has no idea what they are talking about (All the Che photos are hilarious considering he was more concerned with violent revolution everywhere than to help stabilize a situation; that said no matter what rarely do people choose to give up their life of luxury to fight for another cause...righteous or not).

For those wanting to "Write off So Cal"....riiiiiiight. There is a reason they are coming here - and its that the living isn't that great in Mexico. Imo we should deport all illegals - but we should make coming into the US substantially easier. There should be no reason for it to be as hard as it is~ don't have a criminal record, pass a simple physical? Fill out these papers and come on right in. Glad to have you and hope you can make a contribution to this country by working hard to raise your economic status.

 

[magomago]

Oh - and the reason that we don't see this in the MSM is they probably do not want to give it exposure. If no one hears of an idea, its harder to spread...

 

[Darthvoy]

Originally posted by: magomago
Oh - and the reason that we don't see this in the MSM is they probably do not want to give it exposure. If no one hears of an idea, its harder to spread...

The reason the MSM doesn't show that is because those in the pictures are only a small minority in the whole "movement". As with any sort of movement, you are going to have some who are on the extreme side of the issue. Think of the black panthers, KKK, etc. Showing the extremist, in this case, distracts from discussing the real issue with civility. As you can see from several posts in this thread, it does a good job of riling up the xenophobes. It makes them say stupid things like let them have southern California, shoot them on sight, deport them all...etc. Those are the types of things people say when they haven't given real thought to the issue.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: OrByte

correlation fallacy. Just because immigration (illegal and legal) is possibly associated with population explosion, damaging the environment, poverty, poor schools, and cheap labor doesnt mean that if you take legal/illegal immigration out of the equation you will have eradicated such social plights.

That is not true and you can't make that argument considering there are other factors which contribute to those plights you listed. But maybe you aren't making that argument?

Where in my post did I say that those social plights would be eradicated? I didn't say that ending mass immigration would solve all of our problems or even those specific problems you mentioned. My point is that mass immigration makes those problems worse and harder to solve and that for those reasons it isn't in Americans' rational selfish interest.

I understand why illegals do not consider themselves criminals. But they do break the law. This isn't a civil rights issue ala the 60s, but I think it is an issue of liberty. We used to be a country where liberty was important, and so the same goes for the idea of making a better life for oneself. I don't know what the answer is but I feel as though this attitude of shooting all illegals and flying apache helicopters over our borders will not positively contribute to a solution. People still want to come into this country and we ought to continue to find ways to allow for this to happen. The current system is about as effective as it can be given our governmental resources. Any future changes to our "illegal problem" should not be directed at the illegals themselves but to the big businesses that utilize illegals.

money is everything folks.

Oh, trust me, I wish we could allow any decent person who wanted to become an American to become an American. I really do and I understand why so many people support immigration for those reasons. Unfortunately, we also have to face the reality that we live in a world and a country of finite resources and that there is such a thing as a carrying capacity and supply, demand, and price points.

 

[RightIsWrong]

Originally posted by: TheSlamma

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Originally posted by: RichardE
Going to be interesting when they finally push people too far and public opinion becomes vile enough that we start doing mass deportations.

Going to be interesting when they are finally all deported and then prices for common goods goes through the roof when companies won't be able to pay Americans to do the work that they are getting done for well below market value by illegal immigrants.

Public opinion will be screams for massive importation of workers.

So you are saying it's okay to pay illegals less then minimum wage with no benefits? Nice.. That sounds very republican to me.. but then again you do that a lot RiW

Wooohooo! I haven't been accused of being a Republican in a while.

I will spell it out since you seem to have missed it initially.

1. A lot of Americans (mostly right-leaning) cling to the notion that we should deport all illegal immigrants

2. The vast majority of those people are not making 6+ figure salaries

3. If they get their wish, goods and services will go through the roof making their < 6 figure salaries disappear a lot quicker

4. Their attitudes will almost surely change once the results of their actions truly hits home

5. They will start demanding that prices get back to where they had even a little disposable income again

6. The only way this is going to happen will be via migrant workers

Now, I am definitely not a supporter of big business and a large number of methods that they have used to maximize profits. I am however a realist and know that they would not be able to get many Americans to do the kinds of work for the money that they are paying illegals currently. That is why there needs to be....get ready for it....compromising when it comes to a real solution to the immigration process and a plan for allowing those that are already here to stay here so long as they have no other criminal history.

And don't give me the bullshit "Amnesty" line of rhetoric. We as Americans accept the fact that thousands of criminals are given probation every day and also accept the fact that those with the most wealth are able to get a lot of legal matters to just disappear via settlements or knowing whom to give a timely "donation" to.

The only reason we are okay with those and not the other is because most people are too stupid to realize that they are being toyed with and being made to feel some empty nationalistic pride or patriotism.

 

[piasabird]

They just beg us to send in the tanks.

 

[Jhhnn]

From Blaackangst1-

Not sure where you got the idea that I dont believe "that employers are the ones drawing illegals into this country, who want them here, who are willing to work with them to get around the half-assed system we have today"...I didnt say anything remotely close. What I said was, we already have a verification system in place that isnt being used extensively. Why the hell should we create yet another verification? What, by calling it "manditory" will make it work? Please. Even you know better.

Yeh, right- we have a verification system in place that isn't being used extensively. Of course not. It's specifically designed to allow the kind of behavior we're seeing from employers- it's largely voluntary, and completely unenforceable except on a capricious basis. That's obvious. The part of all this that you're refusing to recognize is that the current situation isn't an accident, but is rather the result of intentional structural deficiencies. It works as planned.

Let's put together a typical pre-employment scenario, you as the job seeker, me as the prospective employer under the scenario I proposed.

As an employer, I must register with the database. They'll supply me with an account that I must use for further inquiries.

You fill out an application including your national ID info. I accept it. I call or email the hotline, using the info you supplied, which sends a reply, and an acceptance code, which I must note on the application itself. They also notify you that an application has been filed in your name, including a different code.

I decide that you're a good prospect, so we interview and an agreement is reached. You must now give me the code which was sent to you, which I send along with the code given to me to the database center. They reply with another code, which we both save for our records. This opens accounts in the IRS and SS systems, and you're now working for me. I don't even need to use the hotline for pre-employment, but must once employment is agreed upon... If your employment terminates for any reason, I must notify the database.

If anything doesn't match anywhere along the way, I face stiff fines for hiring you at all, and verification is ongoing and continuous in the IRS and SS databases. If I try to withhold taxes w/o the proper accounts having been established, I'm busted almost immediately. If somebody tries to use your identity to gain employment illegally, you're notified. If somebody tries to fake it entirely, I can't get the initial verification, and can't hire you unless I'm willing to pay totally under the table. And the system is set up to raise flags internally wrt any unusual circumstances, like you working for 11 different employers in 9 different states... There are people who do have such arrangements, independent sales reps, so additional steps can be taken to verify the legitimacy of their situations.

If I employ subcontractors, I must obtain a code verifying their legitimacy, that they're registered in the database. All the cross verification, above, applies. If they don't have the proper accounts set up, I face stiff fines for hiring them.

Even that won't get 100%, but it'd reduce demand for illegal labor to nearly nothing, confining it to small time service providers who work on a cash only basis...

Such a system could even be state administered, as it is wrt CDL's.

So far as bureaucracy is concerned, it'd replace several redundant and disconnected bureaucracies, provided that your national ID served as SS card, ID or driver's license and voter registration rolled into one... it'd also allow tracking and continuous garnishment of deadbeats across state lines, if so desired.

Yeh, sure, there are privacy concerns to be addressed and it would probably entail some additional expense, but it, or something like it, is the only way to prevent the widespread hiring of illegal labor. If illegals can't work, they can't survive, and they'll go home or never come in the first place.

We'll only get what we're willing to pay for, and if we're not, then the results will reflect that, as they do today.

 

[blackangst1]

Jhhnn youre out of your mind if you tihnk this is even feasable.

and where is your guarantee of genuine codes, ID's and such? right. None.

We'll agree to disagree I guess I dont have a problem with that.

 

[Jhhnn]

And you're just not thinking it through, blackangst1. All of your objections are addressed in the process itself, in the back and forth communication. Both employers and employees have to already be in the database in order to be hooked together. It could even be made more robust by adopting web based secure connection technology.

Millions upon millions of much more complex tasks in internet banking and commerce take place every day- saying it won't work is just sticking your head in the sand, entering denial... particularly after you've claimed that a demonstrably dysfunctional system can be made to work if we just try harder...

So, uhh, rave on, secure in the knowledge that you'll be able to do so for at least the next decade or so. The current situation serves business quite well while providing a facade of honest intent and compliance, so it won't change until the citizenry insists on real change, not the bandaids on a sucking chest wound prescription you'd apply.

You want something for nothing, so you won't get it.

 

[BoomerD]

COULD the USA do more to reduce illegal immigration? HELL YES.

WILL the USA do more to reduce illegal immigration? HELL NO!

All the round-ups we see in the news are just so much bullshit lip service being paid to the (mostly) righties who want to see the illegal immigration stopped.

Big business sure doesn't want to see their supply of cheap labor dry up, and since they control the purse strings for the Republican party, the most we'll get are a few token raids and round--ups to show the sheeple, "See? We're pretending to do something. Keep sending your campaign contributions."

I'm a life-long Democrat and I'm ok with legal immigration, but IMO, they need to apply more controls on who actually gets to come here. If we're going to let immigrants in, they need to bring with them job skills that enhance our economy, not a bunch of folks with virtually no education or skills. All they do is drag down the wages for the lower-wage earning Americans.
Remember, they don't come here to do jobs that Americans don't want, they come here to do jobs that Americans won't do for the cheap-ass wages the illegals will accept.

 

[halik]

Cuba is that way *points south*

These idiots have no idea what it is like to live under communism... no idea. It's like white suburban kids dressing up like gangsta rappers.

<- born and raised behind the iron courtain

 

[Jhhnn]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
COULD the USA do more to reduce illegal immigration? HELL YES.

WILL the USA do more to reduce illegal immigration? HELL NO!

All the round-ups we see in the news are just so much bullshit lip service being paid to the (mostly) righties who want to see the illegal immigration stopped.

Big business sure doesn't want to see their supply of cheap labor dry up, and since they control the purse strings for the Republican party, the most we'll get are a few token raids and round--ups to show the sheeple, "See? We're pretending to do something. Keep sending your campaign contributions."

I'm a life-long Democrat and I'm ok with legal immigration, but IMO, they need to apply more controls on who actually gets to come here. If we're going to let immigrants in, they need to bring with them job skills that enhance our economy, not a bunch of folks with virtually no education or skills. All they do is drag down the wages for the lower-wage earning Americans.
Remember, they don't come here to do jobs that Americans don't want, they come here to do jobs that Americans won't do for the cheap-ass wages the illegals will accept.

I think you're right wrt business interests, but wrong wrt who should be let in. The problem isn't that they'll work for low wages, but that they'll work for illegally low wages, that they have no rights and therefore can't be organized.

this country was built by waves of immigrants who essentially came in at the bottom- Irish, Italians, Slavs, Chinese, Japanese and a host of others. I don't see why we should abandon our heritage in that respect, at all. It's a seniority system of sorts, and it hasn't failed us yet.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn

Originally posted by: BoomerD
COULD the USA do more to reduce illegal immigration? HELL YES.

WILL the USA do more to reduce illegal immigration? HELL NO!

All the round-ups we see in the news are just so much bullshit lip service being paid to the (mostly) righties who want to see the illegal immigration stopped.

Big business sure doesn't want to see their supply of cheap labor dry up, and since they control the purse strings for the Republican party, the most we'll get are a few token raids and round--ups to show the sheeple, "See? We're pretending to do something. Keep sending your campaign contributions."

I'm a life-long Democrat and I'm ok with legal immigration, but IMO, they need to apply more controls on who actually gets to come here. If we're going to let immigrants in, they need to bring with them job skills that enhance our economy, not a bunch of folks with virtually no education or skills. All they do is drag down the wages for the lower-wage earning Americans.
Remember, they don't come here to do jobs that Americans don't want, they come here to do jobs that Americans won't do for the cheap-ass wages the illegals will accept.

I think you're right wrt business interests, but wrong wrt who should be let in. The problem isn't that they'll work for low wages, but that they'll work for illegally low wages, that they have no rights and therefore can't be organized.

this country was built by waves of immigrants who essentially came in at the bottom- Irish, Italians, Slavs, Chinese, Japanese and a host of others. I don't see why we should abandon our heritage in that respect, at all. It's a seniority system of sorts, and it hasn't failed us yet.

I agree. If done legally.

Jhhnn I will repost this to you, since I have yet to get an answer from shira:

Let me ask you something. I've only asked one other person on this board this question (Dave) but I'd like to ask you. Obviously you support some kind of program to integrate illegals into society legally. Right? I wouldnt think you would simply want to keep the status quo willey nilley. Would you?

So. How exactly would you implement this? More specifically, would you want to see the same requirements of legalization as LEGAL immigrants? Or would you support some kind of fast track system? Which requirements that LEGAL immigrants have would you bypass? Do you even have a clue how legal immigration works? I dont ask this to be rude, but most people dont have a clue. I do. Ive not only immigrated my wife, but also helped a friend immigrate here via a work visa. I know intimately how it works.

So. Same requirements? Or do you even know what the requirements are?

Lets say you want to bypass requirements. Which means...no criminal background check. No background check from the original host country. No validation of identity. No health screening. Sound good?

Which brings me to my question. If my wife stood before you and asked "Why should someone who came here illegally get their green card/work permit/path to citizenship easier and less costly than someone like me who did it legally?"

You know what Dave said? Tough shit. This is how we are dealing with it. Maybe your husband should have smuggled you in.

What say you?

 

[Jhhnn]

what I do know about the current process is that it's deliberately obtuse, designed more to cause people to give up and go away than to allow for entry by anybody.

So in response to your wife's theoretical question, I'd apologize, and tell her that we were wrong to put her through so much unnecessary grief and expense.

That's really the crux of the matter- that we've been very wrong for a very long time, but that it's no excuse to be wrong forever.

 

[blackangst1]

Well thats a well informed, well thought out answer.

Thanks-

 

[JohnnyGage]

1. A lot of Americans (mostly right-leaning) cling to the notion that we should deport all illegal immigrants

Not true. There are some loud mouth ones who do, but I think if you asked it probably would NOT be 'most' but some. It would be saying, in the same vein that most left leaning Americans want to let all illegals in--there are some but not most. I would like to think that most Americans want a fair solution to this problem. If it means fast tracking those that are already in line for legal immigration and then deal with illegals would be fine with most clear thinking Americans. Or we could just institute the way Mexico deals with illegal immigrants.

I loved the photos by the way. Esp. those upset about oppression in the U.S., then they actually support truly oppressive governments--like Cuba and China. I need the shirt that says "Communism killed 100 million people and all I got was this lousy shirt".