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Man, this housing thing is going to get REALLY ugly

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This whole thread is built of straw. If only we up-zone, we can solve homelessness.
Where did anybody say you can solve homelessness?

But there is a clear affordable housing problem, due to lack of enough inventory, so please explain how building more housing where people want to live will not help reduce prices as supply starts to catch up with demand.
 
This whole thread is built of straw. If only we up-zone, we can solve homelessness.

Isn’t it just objective reality that more housing stock -> housing prices decrease -> more renters buying homes -> rent prices decrease -> more people making rent and not becoming homeless?
 
We should start building over golf courses and cemeteries. Those are massive wastes of land that could be used for housing and other stuff that matters, like foot massage places.
 
Isn’t it just objective reality that more housing stock -> housing prices decrease -> more renters buying homes -> rent prices decrease -> more people making rent and not becoming homeless?
No, the real issue is income distribution. The push to destroy our communities in the name of affordability is just the squirrels wrestling over the last few nuts after the orchard is harvested, a red herring.
 
I don't think its purely a zoning issue. Just read this:


I also think speculation has a lot to do with it. I live in a medium sized Midwestern town. Living here is suppose to be cheap.
Normal starter homes are NOT supposed to cost 400-500k here.
 
No, the real issue is income distribution. The push to destroy our communities in the name of affordability is just the squirrels wrestling over the last few nuts after the orchard is harvested, a red herring.

So hypothetically everybody in the US now makes $100k if they work at a job. Great, there still isn’t enough housing supply in cities where those jobs are located. Didn’t really solve anything there.

Not sure how adding duplexes, or triples or quads in place of a single family, or apartment buildings here or there destroys communities, but okay. I live in a single family myself with apartments by the hundreds under a tenth of a mile away. I find it vibrant and lively and it wouldn’t be the same if it was all quiet single family lots.
 
So hypothetically everybody in the US now makes $100k if they work at a job. Great, there still isn’t enough housing supply in cities where those jobs are located. Didn’t really solve anything there.

Not sure how adding duplexes, or triples or quads in place of a single family, or apartment buildings here or there destroys communities, but okay. I live in a single family myself with apartments by the hundreds under a tenth of a mile away. I find it vibrant and lively and it wouldn’t be the same if it was all quiet single family lots.
At least we can agree that a neighborhood packed with apartment complexes is not the same as a neighborhood of single family housing. One person's lively is another person's noisy.
 
At least we can agree that a neighborhood packed with apartment complexes is not the same as a neighborhood of single family housing. One person's lively is another person's noisy.

I live on a silent dead end street with about ten cars driving on it per day. The apartment complexes a short way down the road add enough people to support restaurants, markets, buses and a train stop straight to downtown Boston in a nicely maintained town square. So horrible to live here and never step over a homeless person! 🙄
 
No, the real issue is income distribution. The push to destroy our communities in the name of affordability is just the squirrels wrestling over the last few nuts after the orchard is harvested, a red herring.

You just saying 'destroying communities' and nothing else is an absolutely terrible statement with zero basis in reality. It's fear politicking at its absolute worst.
 
You just saying 'destroying communities' and nothing else is an absolutely terrible statement with zero basis in reality. It's fear politicking at its absolute worst.
No, if people buy into a community because it is quiet and then that community is turned from a quiet neighborhood into a very noisy one, it is functionally destroyed for the folks that chose to live there because of the quiet nature of the neighborhood. The noise created by the up-zoning destroys the quality of life for the folks who live there.
 
No, if people buy into a community because it is quiet and then that community is turned from a quiet neighborhood into a very noisy one, it is functionally destroyed for the folks that chose to live there because of the quiet nature of the neighborhood. The noise created by the up-zoning destroys the quality of life for the folks who live there.

What do you think, we propose razing swaths of single families and plopping down skyscrapers. I mean you are just fear-mongering absolute nonsense. It's bonkers. Based upon your statement about turning Central Park into towers it's clear you have zero leg to stand on, that's just total nonsense speaking.

If your neighbor wants to make their single family into a two or three family, it should be absolutely none of your business and it's certainly not going to destroy the neighborhood. And if there are areas of town that can handle small low-mid density apartment complexes in certain areas, that's not going to do that either.

I've seen it in the town I grew up, this apartment complex is going to destroy our town! It got built, absolutely nothing bad happened, businesses had more customers, township had more tax revenue. I think they were more worried about the blacks moving in, pretty conservative lily white Jersey suburb. They like it white.
 
What do you think, we propose razing swaths of single families and plopping down skyscrapers. I mean you are just fear-mongering absolute nonsense. It's bonkers. Based upon your statement about turning Central Park into towers it's clear you have zero leg to stand on, that's just total nonsense speaking.

If your neighbor wants to make their single family into a two or three family, it should be absolutely none of your business and it's certainly not going to destroy the neighborhood. And if there are areas of town that can handle small low-mid density apartment complexes in certain areas, that's not going to do that either.

I've seen it in the town I grew up, this apartment complex is going to destroy our town! It got built, absolutely nothing bad happened, businesses had more customers, township had more tax revenue. I think they were more worried about the blacks moving in, pretty conservative lily white Jersey suburb. They like it white.
Oh fuck off with your histrionics. If you want to debate, I'm glad to but your belittling attitude sucks and quite frankly, I don't deserve it. The fact is that up-zoning does add noise and it adds traffic and congestion to neighborhoods that were never designed to handle it. If my neighbor wants to live in a two-three family unit, they can move. This boils down to greed on the part of the neighbor who wants to cash in on their lot, neighbors be damned.
 
I live on a silent dead end street with about ten cars driving on it per day. The apartment complexes a short way down the road add enough people to support restaurants, markets, buses and a train stop straight to downtown Boston in a nicely maintained town square. So horrible to live here and never step over a homeless person! 🙄

i stayed in westborough one time to save money on a visit to boston, and i enjoyed it

i loved the small town feel and taking the train in wasn't a problem at all
 
Oh fuck off with your histrionics. If you want to debate, I'm glad to but your belittling attitude sucks and quite frankly, I don't deserve it. The fact is that up-zoning does add noise and it adds traffic and congestion to neighborhoods that were never designed to handle it. If my neighbor wants to live in a two-three family unit, they can move. This boils down to greed on the part of the neighbor who wants to cash in on their lot, neighbors be damned.

my histrionics? that's rich. you the one making hysterical statements that central park should be razed for housing and communities are going to be destroyed, so expect some pushback. I mean those are just lunacy. Me: you know maybe we should be able to build 2 or 3 families where it's single family zoning. You: Central Park should be razed and communities will all be destroyed.

and I'm histrionic. You are hilarious.

As far as your neighbour goes, why is it just them being greedy? Maybe they want to live there and get a little income too. Maybe they just want a good investment. Who gives a shit, why should you be able to tell them that land is only good for a single family home and that's it? I'm not saying they should be able to plop down a parking garage, a ten story apartment building, or put in an animal slaughterhouse or plop down a strip club, but your highly irrational statements about what can happen if they make it a 2 family is completely nonsensical and the reason this country is fubared with housing.

The fact is pure single family zoning is inefficient and subsidized by denser areas. Your lifestyle that you are forcing on others is subsidized by others. I think they should get their money back at least if you insist on making hysterical arguments.

Let's see how Minneapolis is in 5 years. According to you it will be destroyed. Want to make a wager?

 
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The places with housing surpluses (on paper anyway, a lot of what's technically units aren't even inhabitable anymore) aren't exactly flourishing economical
So blue states and the fleas are coming South after fucking up their own shit.
Imagine that.🙄

I'm moving next to @IronWing. We might not agree on politics but we do on nature and rocks.
 
my histrionics? that's rich. you the one making hysterical statements that central park should be razed for housing and communities are going to be destroyed, so expect some pushback. I mean those are just lunacy.

As far as your neighbour goes, why is it just them being greedy? Maybe they want to live there and get a little income too. Maybe they just want a good investment. Who gives a shit, why should you be able to tell them that land is only good for a single family home and that's it? I'm not saying they should be able to plop down a parking garage, a ten story apartment building, or put in an animal slaughterhouse or plop down a strip club, but your highly irrational statements about what can happen if they make it a 2 family is completely nonsensical and the reason this country is fubared with housing.

The fact is pure single family zoning is inefficient and subsidized by denser areas. Your lifestyle that you are forcing on others is subsidized by others. I think they should get their money back at least if you insist on making hysterical arguments.

Let's see how Minneapolis is in 5 years. According to you it will be destroyed. Want to make a wager?

I didn't force anything on anybody. They knew what they were buying when they bought it. Now they want to change the rules to the detriment of the rest of the neighborhood so they can grab a little cash.
 
Is living in upstate NY, for example, really that terrible? There are certainly less opportunities but it's liveable.

I've moved recently and a few other times as an adult and always chose cities that fit my budget.
Upstate NY is magical. Prove me wrong.
 
It gets really pricey really fast building new public transit. That's just building it let alone the operational cost. Doesn't take much to get into the billions. You can see why it's tough to convince people in SFH suburbia to spend that kind of money on something they'd never use. Gets even worse if people are allowed to WFH since the ridership will remain depressed.
This is why you need smart, planned density. Not like here where the little density we do have is shotgunned all over the fucking place.

The other problem is most American prefer single family homes, which do not lend themselves to public transportation at all. Even stilling, if cities would develop with high density commercial and residential districts, PT could be done, even with large amounts of single family homes in other districts.
 
We should start building over golf courses and cemeteries. Those are massive wastes of land that could be used for housing and other stuff that matters, like foot massage places.
You have me with golf courses, but leave my cemeteries alone. Only place I can go for a walk without a billion people around. If you can make people more afraid of something than their own mortality that also has large plots of land associated with it (forests? shoreline?), I'd be willing to negotiate.
 
This is why you need smart, planned density. Not like here where the little density we do have is shotgunned all over the fucking place.

The other problem is most American prefer single family homes, which do not lend themselves to public transportation at all. Even stilling, if cities would develop with high density commercial and residential districts, PT could be done, even with large amounts of single family homes in other districts.
And this is good. I think cities should plan for higher density in new areas. People would know what they are buying into.
 
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