W: never said that I was tryng to help any cause...I just think and feel that the bastard deserves a slow painful death considering what he has done.
M: Yes, and as I said that makes you different in what way from the killer who decided the same thing about his wife and child. In other words, who gives a sh!t about what you think you think and feel. We need some assurance your thoughts and feelings are sane, no?
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W: So you are equating killing an innocent child with killing his killer? I see. Sounds logical.
M: You needn't use the word logic when your argument is so full of passion. You are not capable of logic here. I said that your certainty that the killer should die is identical to the certainty the attempted killer had that his victims also needed to die. You and he share the same hate and emotional need to act it out. You simply call yours justified and his not. His point of view would in here be the opposite, so again you are just like him. You aren't used, I think, to looking at yourself so my points are hard for you to catch.
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W: The choices are not scott free or death. There is the option of imprisonment, but when you look at that option, like I said he will come to be able to live with what he did...don't think so? Consider what it takes for someone to stab a 2 year old child to begin with. He will eventually develope a psychological mechanism that allows him to cope and possibly even justify what he did in his own mind....has he learned anything? does he feel remorse? He still gets free room and board, free meals, interaction with human beings, a chance at a better education etc. etc. all the while this child never gets a chance for anything...who knows what that life could have developed into? we'll never know.
M: Yes, and you also have come to live most comfortably with this wish to kill him which I consider to be equally insane. Why get pissed off at him for something you're doing too?
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W: And again we see that you equate the two...nice so far.
M: Yes, you and the would be killer have much in common which is why you know so much about him and why, also, I know so much about you. Because you have no compassion for the killer you see nothing about yourself in him, but I don't have that problem to your extreme. I'm not a proud as you. I can see the killer in me.
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W:So given the options, with all the benefits that prison has to offer and the fact he learns to live with his actions, yes he will get off scott free in comparison to death.
M: You mean he is going to suffer after he's dead? Where do you acquire this certainty as to what scott free and what isn't. Could it just be a silly opinion?
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W: No sillier than your statement about Jesus rising from the dead....care to furnish any proof that is NOT based on a simplistic blind faith, if you can't, I would say that is an opinion.
M: Certainly, listen to me and forgive. See if you're not reborn. This axiom has been tested and proven for thousands of years.
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W: Some are justified, some are not...this man made a choice...he choose poorly. Choosing poorly means that there are consequences to ones actions. Likewise choosing correctly means there is a reward to ones actions.
M: Leaving aside the silly argument you tried to make that killing in self defense is murder, where do you get this crazy notion that there should be consequences for our actions. There are always consequences of one kind or another, why do you think your notion of what they should be should prevail.
Where do you get this ridiculous notion that bad choices should be punished when we are not talking, really, about choices at all. Of course you like to hold people responsible for their actions, call what they do choice, because that frees you to judge then as animals, but in fact they have no more choice in what they do than you do reacting as you do. You are incapable of making the right choice in how you should react, with compassionate understanding, because you are incapable of making that choice, so far. You are a machine just like the killer. You react according to the degree you are conscious.
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W: #1- I am assuming that your self defense referral is having to do with a mother or wife protecting herself or her child? No one ever said that they had to do as the attack occured. What about women who wait months to kill thier abuser? They wait until he is asleep or in a vunerable state...why not leave and go to authorites instead?
My responses was to your blanket statement that all killing is based on self hate...you do remember saying that right? apparently you missed the connection.
M: No, you just missed the fact that we are discussing here a particular murder, a crime of family passion, a class of murder to which my statement always applies.
W: Ummmm....moon people are animals, but they are animals that have the ability to make choices. Non human animals don't have that capacity, they use instincts over concious choice. They do what they do because they are simple minded creatures.
M: Again you have far more pride than I do. I find myself to be a rather simple animal. I said that when a person is made to feel his self hate, get close to it via something triggering some repressed memory, the instant reaction is to kill. When a person, also through no fault of their own reached the age of maturity without developing any sort of moral character and self respect, he can act out those feelings. It has nothing to do with choice because all the things that motivate us are in us without any choice on our part, just as the failure to grow up responsibly and successfully mature is not something we can will. We are what circumstances have made us. Murder exists in the violent nation of America because our conditions dictate that it will occur and we do little to change that. You and I are as responsible for violence as the violent.
W: People always can make a choice, granted it is sometimes hard in the heat of the moment, but the fact remains, that the ability to choose is there. if no one is held responsible then where are we at?
M: You know, then, that what I say is true. Well there is something called a second chance. There is remediation, education, changing the environment, counseling, ministry, psychotherapy, tons of things. We have to hold people to standards that they not harm others, but we don't have to call those who do 'guilty or worthless scum'. In their circumstances they are likely just like we would be. It is circumstance that creates them and new circumstance can lead them also to change.
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W: You are hold me and many others you disagree with responsible for thier words do you not? Why? Why are you able to hold people accountable yet others are not? Are you not holding us accountable according to
your standards? what makes that ok for you and no one else?...see were seeing that you are really no different and no better than the rest of us.
M: No way. You can't be different than you are and I said that. You see at the level that your understanding permits and that is all you can see. You would have to choose to see what I say is so but you don't have that choice. You can't be held responsible for who you are because you are what you can be. I merely offer you a different circumstance. Quite likely you have never heard the truth before.
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W: As much as your heart wants it to be about me and my personal feelings, it is not, it is about right and wrong and the punishment of the wrong choice and that the punishment should be at a minimum equal to the damage of the wrong choice, otherwise lessons are never learned. The topic about the effectiveness of the death penalty is a different matter and for another discussion.
M:
You fail, continually, to see that your notions of punishment for wrong choices and eye for an eye revenge are about nothing more than you and your personal feelings. They are a total product of your own invention. They have no reality at all.
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W: Ummmm...YEAH.... much like your lack of punishment for such actons are based on
your feelings. If we depended on people like you, no one would get punished for anything apparently.
M: Yes true. I would not punish but try to help people find the lost buried good that is in us all. Naturally I would have to keep people from harming others by a prison system of some kind, but I would try to treat the sick in the way that would have made them well had they always been treated that way. How will anybody learn to love others if they aren't themselves exposed to love? And, of course, how will anybody know if somebody changes if they themselves never have?
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W: And as I have said, punishment is not always just about punishment, it is also about retribution. As it should be.
M: Sorry,
but to claim something should be does nothing to prove the case. [/quote]
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W: your right, at least we agree on something...so stop making claims like: "just happen to know you both better than either of you know yourselves"
According to you since all you have is a claim, then you have no case.
M: Hehe, I can assure you that my case is obvious to others with vision and I am not arguing for the sake of arguing but I'm here to create conditions that just might affect your view. There is noting I can win or lose. I'm sort of following my bliss.
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W: If you don't think that there should be consequences for actions, then what do
you think should happen?
M: There are consequences for actions. This putz will never know marital happiness or the pride of being a father. He may lose his life. He will certainly lose years and years of his life if not all of it as a prisoner. If he ever retrieves his deeper self he will experience crushing remorse and guilt and carry a tremendous burden. All I feel for him is deeply deeply sad. He grew up in darkness and never had a chance. His self hate was such that he had to make all the wrong choices.
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W: Remember you said " where do you get this crazy notion that there should be consequences for our actions?"
M: Yes, you could never arrange consequences that can touch the ones this man has earned. He successfully proved he's the worst in the world.
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