I don't think I can take reading any more of this pseudo-literary gibberish, but I do have one point to make as a counterargument to the above poster who says that this man cannot be punished because he is mentally ill.
Who are you to decide that this was an act of mental illness? I allow that someone whose perception and understanding of reality is completely wrong cannot be meaningfully punished.
But what if, as humans, many of us have an enormous capacity for violence and ability to disregard the suffering of others? Perhaps this man was not "sick", but just so shortsighted and immoral that he allowed his instincts to take over and respond to his anger? Anger makes people do irrational things all the time.
It is the customs and laws that are a part of our civilization that allow us, at least as a society, to be more that brutish animals. Someone who commits an act like this one should be removed from society for the rest of their life either by incarceration or death. In my opinion, insanity or mental illness is a mitigating factor only when the person is completely unable to percieve reality. NOT "my wife made me mad so I went insane" or "I hate myself so I am mentally ill."
Who are you to decide that this was an act of mental illness? I allow that someone whose perception and understanding of reality is completely wrong cannot be meaningfully punished.
But what if, as humans, many of us have an enormous capacity for violence and ability to disregard the suffering of others? Perhaps this man was not "sick", but just so shortsighted and immoral that he allowed his instincts to take over and respond to his anger? Anger makes people do irrational things all the time.
It is the customs and laws that are a part of our civilization that allow us, at least as a society, to be more that brutish animals. Someone who commits an act like this one should be removed from society for the rest of their life either by incarceration or death. In my opinion, insanity or mental illness is a mitigating factor only when the person is completely unable to percieve reality. NOT "my wife made me mad so I went insane" or "I hate myself so I am mentally ill."
LunarRay
Diamond Member
- Mar 2, 2003
- 9,993
- 1
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Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I posted this story because I knew moonbeam would defend this horrible person and I would then be able to use that fact to discredit everything that moonbeam says from this point forward.
Haven't you been paying attention? Us right wingers are brilliant at doing stuff like this.. sheeeeesh. :roll:
:Looking at forum title "Politics and News": hmmm this is news right? I actually thought we would all agree that this guy is a horrible person. Whether he should be executed, if baby dies, is a matter of personal opinion. Luckily moonbeam has done such an eloquent job of illustrating the failures of the death penalty that we all have changed our mind on it.
Well.... ProfJohn... not quite ..
In a nut shell... (hehehehhehehe) the response from MB is not a defense of a potentially guilty felon... but, rather, an explanation of why we feel the way we do indicated by our posts and why he the 'bad guy' did what he did...
Moonster went on to elaborate that to see above the clouds you can't see through you need to climb the mountain and from that vantage you can see amazing sights.. you learn the truth of what is above the clouds..
It is normal for folks (blinded by their ego) to want revenge the killing of folks by invoking the death penalty on the perpetrators in THESE situations... but while folks support that revenge they have no such feelings about the folks who have bombs dropped on them while they nurse their babies etc.. Why is that true? ok.. it is war and in war collateral damage is acceptable.. Well the same insanity that make folks war makes folks do what the OP indicates occured..
War is insanity on a grander scale... MB says.. only love is truth.. can there be war and the opponents love each other? ..... the greatest man of peace said that to Love your neighbor AS you love yourself is equally as important as loving your God totally.. ... So he knew that the reverse is also true.... that to Hate your neighbor AS you hate yourself is the greatest motivator away from Love... If you get the drift..
You know moonbeam you seem to know more about people around here then they know about themselves. How is it you find the kind of time to gain knowledge and insight about everyone that disagrees with you or has a different outlook when you are posting on average 11 times a day?
I mean if you are that introspective about the human condition, then I would think you would put your abilities to better use like helping your fellow man, such as the gentlemen that stabbed this child. If you are so convinced he is worth saving then show him the light.
But then that would entail you to actually step away from the anonymity of the keyboard and put you into a position where you may actually have to put your money where your mouth is and that is a pretty scary thought isn't it? Having to actually be responsible for the things you say and do, and backing up your words with deeds and all......
LunarRay
Diamond Member
- Mar 2, 2003
- 9,993
- 1
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Ahhh.,.... the Irony..
Some read and don't understand and reflect in their responses the reality of what one person has indicated and proceed to castigate in any manner at hand...
Some read and partially understand and reflect this too in their responses but castigate none the less in what can only be described as an attempt to discredit based on the ASSUMED inaction of the TRUTH BRINGER... Go forth and cure is the claim... heheheheheh
Some read and fully understand and marvel at the journey yet to be undertaken by the many and sympathy and understanding at the splinters which will be found with each step.....
Read and try to see the words and not the Clown... but that Clown is like steel... hardened by the jouney... the twigs of words tossed will net deter the Clown... his mission is not complete..
Some read and don't understand and reflect in their responses the reality of what one person has indicated and proceed to castigate in any manner at hand...
Some read and partially understand and reflect this too in their responses but castigate none the less in what can only be described as an attempt to discredit based on the ASSUMED inaction of the TRUTH BRINGER... Go forth and cure is the claim... heheheheheh
Some read and fully understand and marvel at the journey yet to be undertaken by the many and sympathy and understanding at the splinters which will be found with each step.....
Read and try to see the words and not the Clown... but that Clown is like steel... hardened by the jouney... the twigs of words tossed will net deter the Clown... his mission is not complete..
I think moonbeam has the right idea, some idiots would assume that this meant we shouldnt protect society from this killer, but that isnt the case at all, its simply that the solution of slaying the man will not have a more positive result on society..for every action there are reactions, when someone kills another he cannot simply absorb it and just be the same man he once was....the truth is that by murdering the murderer (when it is not necessary for survival) you devalue life even more than he is because you have given away yourself
Rangoric
Senior member
- Apr 5, 2006
- 530
- 0
- 71
Originally posted by: sjvlad
It's the wall of text defense. Often used on message forums, this unique defense helps substantiate a nonsensicle point by beating the other users over the head with a crapton of useless, rambling paragraphs.
Now is that an example of...
http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/filibuster.htm
or of
http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/philosopher.htm
Because holy wall of text Batman.
Anyways. Just felt like putting that out there, made me think of that site
Corn
Diamond Member
- Nov 12, 1999
- 6,389
- 29
- 91
Sometimes I simply wonder if Moonie is a murderer in waiting......like he's trying to talk himself into a justification for the act. He projects his feelings of worthlessness, of being the worst in the world, unto us who don't have the impulse to murder the innocent (born or unborn).....as a smokescreen for his morbid thoughts or terrible guilt.......
In Moonie's world; porn bad, murderer good.........yes, it makes one wonder sometimes.......
this make me sad because I'm father of 2 and I know this would have turn me into murder(if was my child) because I would gone after this a$$hole... I'm sorry but that how feel right now, and anger toward this guy because why the child? wtf could child have done to him?
Punishment cannot and should not always mean that the convicted get some kind of redemption out of it or that society has to benifit. You think living with the knowlege that he killed a two year old is worse than dying? In time he will come to grips with what he has done and learn to live his life accordingly. This isn't the movies or TV he WILL be able to sleep a night...eventually, so then what kind of punishment is that? He gets a warm bed, 3 meals a day, a routine in which to plan the rest of his life, TV and if he chooses the ability to get an education, so that IF he ever does get out he has an opportunity....so what? Why should he be able to get these things when the innocent child he killed does not ever have the chance.
If this guys gets fried, I have not given anything away, and if I have, I gladly do it JUST to see him die, and not a quick death either...a slow painful one that takes months or years.
Would I be able to sleep at night if that kind of pain was inflicted on him? Hell yes I would.
LunarRay
Diamond Member
- Mar 2, 2003
- 9,993
- 1
- 76
Corn,
Gosh Corn he never said it was good... but simply said what motivates one to do it.. and that everyone has some false feelings locked up inside and depending on just what is in that vault motivates folks to do those and other damnable things.. force one to see their hidden and they react..
MB says that to rid everyone of the motivator requires first everyone to unlearn the false that binds them to the outward manifestion of that false...
Gosh Corn he never said it was good... but simply said what motivates one to do it.. and that everyone has some false feelings locked up inside and depending on just what is in that vault motivates folks to do those and other damnable things.. force one to see their hidden and they react..
MB says that to rid everyone of the motivator requires first everyone to unlearn the false that binds them to the outward manifestion of that false...
LunarRay
Diamond Member
- Mar 2, 2003
- 9,993
- 1
- 76
The question is valid.. why would folks even harm a puppy... they do. What inside a person can enrage them to do any violence at all?
We who are not even personally involved feel a sense of rage toward this person... Why?
We want to lash out and feel better? Why? Will we feel better having 'punished' this person who folks have deemed 'punishable'... why is that... ?
This is what Moonbeam has stated over and over again... the reasons why, perhaps.
ericlp
Diamond Member
- Dec 24, 2000
- 6,134
- 223
- 106
Just think how much tax payers will pay for trials and all the BS court system not to mention putting this guy on death row... Oh joy! I say take him in the back room put a slug in his head ... and save the tax payers some mula!!!
Man, who really cares tho, this crap happens daily in LA, Iraq, Etc...etc... This is nothing new...Welcome to America.
Man, who really cares tho, this crap happens daily in LA, Iraq, Etc...etc... This is nothing new...Welcome to America.
rage/violence towards someone else may be cause by something has happened(rape,loved,etc) in their life or just had it with life or just mentally insane since birth or just get pleasure just crabbing a child stab it or drop them from 20 floor. I know I will not commit any act of violence just like that, has to be something really dramatic just to loose it. You ask "Will we feel better having 'punished' this person who folks have deemed 'punishable'" what would happened if we do not punished this person? how about if we dump this person in jail, maybe this person just like being in jail. is rent free and child/bills/etc worry free.
I ask my self this guy commits this act because maybe his wife was nagging him every day, and the child was being a child. just drove him insane probably felt rage silent them? who know what cause him to do this... but he must know there are consequences for his action. is the same for us keep us in check let say when we want to bitch slap police officer or you're annoying neighbor.. we will not because we know their consequence ...
oh well that how I see life everything has a consequence good or bad and every choice you make lead you different path. but there some fellow humans just DON'T give flying fck about consequence or feel sympathy towards other fellow humans. you see I made my choice and is bad one and I know the consequence for the action if the would ever happened to me, and I hope never will.
Now you know exactly how this guy felt when he stabbed his own child in the head. You and he are capable of complete self justification in the act of murder. We only kill those who deserve to die and in this we are all the same. As I said, you hate this killer because he is you. But I know, I know. When it comes to self justification, only you can be right, again, just like the killer.
If you could kill every person on the planet who ever murdered anyone, you would probably only dent the murder rate. People murder because they are infected with the violence of self hate. When that violence via circumstance reaches a certain point it explodes and people often die. No amount of fear of punishment will change a thing because, as I said, it is punishment itself that was involved in creating self hate. We kill people that punish us especially because they make us feel bad. Just look at how my opinions on the truth of how we really are makes people get pissed off at me. We kill to protect ourselves from feeling how bad we feel. This is why we have to develop human compassion for everyone. We are all filled with self hate, even poor blind Corn, whom I have no doubt is a fine and decent person just like yourself.
I just happen to know you both better than either of you know yourselves. At any rate, the only way we will ever see the decline in violence in the world is via self understanding and the realization as to where violence comes from. As I have said over and over is it the product of self-hate. We were controlled as children and made to conform via the force of punishment and words that told us we would be loved only by being a certain way. We died to who we were to play that game and survive and because we died we will now kill anybody who re-awakens that death by making us feel what we feel. This is the deepest truth about how we have come to be what we are and it can be confirmed by anybody who learns to feel what it is he or she feels.
For example, lets take somebody who is depressed, sort of the walking already dead. In therapy they will, generally speaking here, say that they feel nothing. Yup, their feeling are completely buried. With work the depressed will begin to experience anger, a horrible thing to feel because it tells you that you are alive. Dear me, I would so much prefer deadness to rage. It's bad people, after all, who get angry. So the rage pours our and out and our and our and finally our patient begins to cry. Oh dear I had no idea I was so sad. The rage, it happens was there as a protection. Rage is what we feel to keep how sad we are at bey. So the sadness comes pouring out and then we come to grief. The sadness becomes so profound it turns into memory. Now we relive what it is that we really feel, some terrible remembered grief, some time when we lost ourself. Well the wonderful thing about grief is that it is real. In grief we come alive. In grief we heal, we mourn for ourselves and heal these ancient wounds. We know our real story and the lies we were told because we remember at last what really happened.
This is the work the world needs to do to end violence because violence is a protection against a hurt we are terrified to feel. Every time you put another down you add to human suffering and every time you do something life affirming you lessen the burden.
Those of you who imagine yourselves to be exceptions to this are only dreaming.
Orignal Earl
Diamond Member
- Oct 27, 2005
- 8,059
- 55
- 86
The man is clearly insane, I thought America stopped executing insane/retarded people a couple years ago?
When will the more moderate Americans rise up, speak out, and stop these Americans
When will the more moderate Americans rise up, speak out, and stop these Americans
Orignal Earl
Diamond Member
- Oct 27, 2005
- 8,059
- 55
- 86
Oops, I stand corrected.
(The US stopped executing children last year, not the mentally ill)
Death Penalty
Orignal Earl
Diamond Member
- Oct 27, 2005
- 8,059
- 55
- 86
And you've got great company
The Death Penalty Worldwide
Sorry about the multiple posts, I'm just posting as I find some facts
You're not helping the pro-death sentence cause any.
Why are some pro-ds people in here saying the only two choices are death or get off scott free? Why not debate the facts instead of saying opponents of the ds are murderer lovers?
The death penalty is legalized honor killing for the U.S. Just look at the average Mid-East region country living under Sharia Law to know what I'm talking about. Do we REALLY want to be as barbaric and backwards as those folks?
I never said that I was tryng to help any cause...I just think and feel that the bastard deserves a slow painful death considering what he has done.
The choices are not scott free or death. There is the option of imprisonment, but when you look at that option, like I said he will come to be able to live with what he did...don't think so? Consider what it takes for someone to stab a 2 year old child to begin with. He will eventually develope a psychological mechanism that allows him to cope and possibly even justify what he did in his own mind....has he learned anything? does he feel remorse? He still gets free room and board, free meals, interaction with human beings, a chance at a better education etc. etc. all the while this child never gets a chance for anything...who knows what that life could have developed into? we'll never know.
So given the options, with all the benefits that prison has to offer and the fact he learns to live with his actions, yes he will get off scott free in comparison to death.
Nice theory, but no, and that is all it is a theory.
That is possibly your only explination, but that is not the ONLY explination.
People murder for many reasons, do you honestly think that a mother protecting her child from someone who has been molesting that child is full of self hate and that is why she kills the molester? She kills because she is protecting the child from further damage, not because she hates herslef, it is actully a selfless act because she could be punished for it.
An elderly husband who's wife is is such pain and agony from the cancer eating her body she begs him to kill her and he does...is it murder? Yes it is, (we call it assisted suicide) but does he hate himself? No..he loves her so much that he does what she asks even though it will come at a great sacrifice for him.
A woman kills an abusive husband to save herself and her children from further beatings, does she hate herself? no, it is about self preservation and a love for her children so they can live without the threat of further violence in thier lives at the hands of this man.
So see Moon, murder is not always about the self hate you so proclaim it to be.
Some are justified, some are not...this man made a choice...he choose poorly. Choosing poorly means that there are consequences to ones actions. Likewise choosing correctly means there is a reward to ones actions.
As much as your heart wants it to be about me and my personal feelings, it is not, it is about right and wrong and the punishment of the wrong choice and that the punishment should be at a minimum equal to the damage of the wrong choice, otherwise lessons are never learned. The topic about the effectiveness of the death penalty is a different matter and for another discussion.
And as I have said, punishment is not always just about punishment, it is also about retribution. As it should be.
First off,
!. This crime was NOT self-defense.
2. This crime was directed towards two unarmed and obviously weaker persons.
3. This crime showed that the perpetrator WAS conscious of the act being criminal because he FLED the scene!
4. He was afraid of capture so that shows that he was at least somewhat rational.
5. He dumped the childs body on the road and then proceeded to pursue more violence.
6. He showed such remorse after atacking the mother and then the child, that he sought to finish the job of killing the mother who escaped. This was not just act of instant rage.
This person is likely disturbed, but to what extent? Can he be reformed into a productive member of soceity? Can you make the community where he lives feel safe around him? Can you make the community where it happened feel safe again? Can you convince me 100 percent that he will never do something like this again? Can you somehow balance the loss of innocence of the child and the mother with what he took away from them?
Answer all these questions and THEN think about how he should be dealt with.
!. This crime was NOT self-defense.
2. This crime was directed towards two unarmed and obviously weaker persons.
3. This crime showed that the perpetrator WAS conscious of the act being criminal because he FLED the scene!
4. He was afraid of capture so that shows that he was at least somewhat rational.
5. He dumped the childs body on the road and then proceeded to pursue more violence.
6. He showed such remorse after atacking the mother and then the child, that he sought to finish the job of killing the mother who escaped. This was not just act of instant rage.
This person is likely disturbed, but to what extent? Can he be reformed into a productive member of soceity? Can you make the community where he lives feel safe around him? Can you make the community where it happened feel safe again? Can you convince me 100 percent that he will never do something like this again? Can you somehow balance the loss of innocence of the child and the mother with what he took away from them?
Answer all these questions and THEN think about how he should be dealt with.
These are the sorts of questions that need to be considered, and they can be summed-up in the following way:
If the consequences of allowing this person to live are worse (for all parties concerned) than those of executing him, then he should be executed.
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