man dies after NYPD cop puts him in chokehold

[Pipeline 1010]

Leaving no room for error would make sure we didn't have cops or employees in general anywhere.

This is textbook straw-man logical falacy. Nobody here said that the cops should have no room for error. To argue that this is people's problem with what happened is dishonest. Do you understand how to differentiate between small errors that don't really hurt anybody and colossal fuck-ups that directly cause death? Does there truly lie nothing inbetween?

People screw up on their jobs - this includes cops - and like most businesses and places of employment - people get a couple times of screwing up - now if this cop regularly screws up - sure - he should be fired... but for a one time screw up (if it were) on an exemplary record - that likely didn't result in his death (see my previous comments on this) - I don't see why he should be fired.

This depends on how BADLY you screw up. If I write a bad line of software that causes an error message to pop up on our web page on certain infrequent cases, I can see being given a chance to fix it and not getting fired. If I sexually harass a coworker, or if I crash our entire site for a week, I can rightfully expect to pack my gear and GTFO. Doesn't killing someone to death with a well-known banned technique seem like the extreme end of a monumental screw up? How many times does your department allow you to choke hold somebody to death before they fire you?

 

[Sattern]

It's sad cops think they can do whatever they want without repercussion.

It's time people stand up and do something so things like this don't happen anymore.

 

[momeNt]

It's sad cops think they can do whatever they want without repercussion.

It's time people stand up and do something so things like this don't happen anymore.

It's really all about disciplining the police officers and making them liable for misconduct.

Certain actions police officers should be able to be indemnified by the municipality. Like not having to pay for a door that was broken down during a warrant that was served to the wrong house, but other actions they need to have accountability as if they were a civilian committing that act.

This would be a good example. When they without cause or fear of their own death, they cause the death of another, that should be considered murder. The municipality can indemnify them for monetary awards, since it's not like a cop would be able to pay out a wrongful death suit anyways. But they need to go on the stand like a regular civilian for stuff like this.

 

[QueBert]

This is textbook straw-man logical falacy. Nobody here said that the cops should have no room for error. To argue that this is people's problem with what happened is dishonest. Do you understand how to differentiate between small errors that don't really hurt anybody and colossal fuck-ups that directly cause death? Does there truly lie nothing inbetween?



This depends on how BADLY you screw up. If I write a bad line of software that causes an error message to pop up on our web page on certain infrequent cases, I can see being given a chance to fix it and not getting fired. If I sexually harass a coworker, or if I crash our entire site for a week, I can rightfully expect to pack my gear and GTFO. Doesn't killing someone to death with a well-known banned technique without checking to see if anyone is video taping a police officer clearly breaking the law seem like the extreme end of a monumental screw up? How many times does your department allow you to choke hold somebody to death before they fire you?

FTFY. IMHO there's no such thing as an accidental death when the method that resulted in the persons death wasn't allowed. Even if this man would have lived, for the choke hold I believe the cop should still be let go, at best. Police already have a damn plethora of legal techniques they can use that result in accidentally killing someone.

 

[werepossum]

FTFY. IMHO there's no such thing as an accidental death when the method that resulted in the persons death wasn't allowed. Even if this man would have lived, for the choke hold I believe the cop should still be let go, at best. Police already have a damn plethora of legal techniques they can use that result in accidentally killing someone.

I agree, and well said.

 

[Pipeline 1010]

FTFY. IMHO there's no such thing as an accidental death when the method that resulted in the persons death wasn't allowed. Even if this man would have lived, for the choke hold I believe the cop should still be let go, at best. Police already have a damn plethora of legal techniques they can use that result in accidentally killing someone.

I agree. As for the part about not being aware he's being filmed...I think he actually knew. He smiled and waived at the camera afterward. It's likely that he's simply used to not having to ever face negative consequences for any bad thing he ever does.

I would bet he has full faith that his drinking buddies in internal affairs will fully investigate, uh, I mean make up reasons why what he did was OK and he was forced to do it and why it was the victim's fault and how many bad things the victim did in his life which makes it OK to kill him and we don't know what happened before the video starts and we don't know the totality of the situation and video is only a 2D representation of a 3D world and we don't know what it's like to be a cop and the cop was actually much more gentle to this evil person that most other cops would have been so we should be thanking him and he is hero and he deserves.

 

[Dari]

What I find interesting about the video is that the 6'3", 350lbs guy did not fight back because he knew that if he did he would've been lit up like the night sky on the 4th of July. Instead, he put his faith in the cops being professional. There were no good options.

 

[SheHateMe]

I hope his family sues the hell out of the NYPD. That was absolutely unnecessary.

 

[RandomWords]

Do you understand how to differentiate between small errors that don't really hurt anybody and colossal fuck-ups that directly cause death? Does there truly lie nothing inbetween?

Yes I do. I actually do not believe the choke directly caused his death and thus it was just a misuse of force on his part - as stated earlier why... somewhat unrelated: New York is also known to be very strict and not have many liberties - the residents there know this. At least that is what I'm told by the people who move away whose reason was "You have no freedoms there" - or along those lines... but that is what you get from overly liberal states - it is partly their own faults for supporting that type of environment (meaning lack of freedom - not this guys death, though it does play its part indirectly).

 

[Pipeline 1010]

I actually do not believe the choke directly caused his death and thus it was just a misuse of force on his part - as stated earlier why.

Eh...could be. There's a reason they have banned that technique when tazing and shooting people don't even have a blanket ban. Maybe it's just that dangerous. Either way, as a tax paying citizen who is forced to pay for police; as the main customer/employer of police, I don't want my money to pay for escalation of force until someone dies because they sold some cigarettes untaxed. Let the IRS take care of it via wage garnishment.

somewhat unrelated: New York is also known to be very strict and not have many liberties - the residents there know this. At least that is what I'm told by the people who move away whose reason was "You have no freedoms there" - or along those lines... but that is what you get from overly liberal states - it is partly their own faults for supporting that type of environment (meaning lack of freedom - not this guys death, though it does play its part indirectly).

Funny how liberal and liberty share the same root word and that's about it.

Although police misconduct generally does not appear to be concentrated in any particular political environment in America. It seems systemic and nation wide due to factors such as:

- qualified immunity
- departments investigating their own
- powerful unions who successfully intimidate politicians (and who back officers no matter what terrible thing they may have done)
- the blue code of silence
- various POBAR rights that only cops get that allow them to do some very shady things such as view all evidence against them before making a statement to investigators.

These all seem like tools to allow cops to avoid consequences of doing bad illegal things.

 

[dmcowen674]

I actually do not believe the choke directly caused his death and thus it was just a misuse of force on his part

Your whacked and just over a 100 posts obviously a shill.

Everyone just put the nut job on ignore.

 

[Pipeline 1010]

Your whacked and just over a 100 posts obviously a shill.

Everyone just put the nut job on ignore.

Speaking as somebody with a very low post count, what does post count have to do with anything? What's wrong with simply stating your disagreement with an internet forum post and backing it up with facts and/or logic? You do have facts and/or logic, right?

And how is a low post count indicative of shillitude? Since shills like to shill a lot, wouldn't a shill actually have a very high post count...say 53,271+ posts? And wouldn't a shill resort to personal attacks and irrelevant/insulting comments about post counts? That's something I didn't see in the "shill's" post that you quoted. I did see it somewhere though. Can you guess where?

I think I kind of agree with your viewpoint on this particular issue based on the current facts that I have...I just think you are choosing to present your viewpoint in the way that I'd expect an unintelligent douchebag to present their standpoint. I don't know you, but I have great hopes that you can do better in the future.

 

[Victorian Gray]

If you are interested in what other police officers have to say about all this:

(scroll to the end of the article for the comments)

http://www.policeone.com/use-of-force/articles/7385823-Video-NY-man-dies-in-struggle-during-arrest/

 

[davmat787]

Speaking as somebody with a very low post count, what does post count have to do with anything? What's wrong with simply stating your disagreement with an internet forum post and backing it up with facts and/or logic? You do have facts and/or logic, right?

And how is a low post count indicative of shillitude? Since shills like to shill a lot, wouldn't a shill actually have a very high post count...say 53,271+ posts? And wouldn't a shill resort to personal attacks and irrelevant/insulting comments about post counts? That's something I didn't see in the "shill's" post that you quoted. I did see it somewhere though. Can you guess where?

I think I kind of agree with your viewpoint on this particular issue based on the current facts that I have...I just think you are choosing to present your viewpoint in the way that I'd expect an unintelligent douchebag to present their standpoint. I don't know you, but I have great hopes that you can do better in the future.

There is a reason everyone calls him McOwned. 😉

 

[QueBert]

If you are interested in what other police officers have to say about all this:

(scroll to the end of the article for the comments)

http://www.policeone.com/use-of-force/articles/7385823-Video-NY-man-dies-in-struggle-during-arrest/

I'm shocked that almost all the posts are officers basically saying the cops did absolutely no wrong here.

And police wonder why a good number of people don't care much for them as a whole.

 

[RandomWords]

I think I kind of agree with your viewpoint on this particular issue based on the current facts that I have...I just think you are choosing to present your viewpoint in the way that I'd expect an unintelligent douchebag to present their standpoint. I don't know you, but I have great hopes that you can do better in the future.

I like your post - and I'm not saying the cops did everything right - I'm just saying from the video, I don't think the cops contributed to his death with a 13 second choke hold that ended before he started saying he can't breath - if it were a cardiac arrest, which is what it looks like - it wouldn't have been the choke hold (or as one person says, a sleeper hold) that caused it - but his own health and the EMT's lack of attention more so. Should that one cop have become aggressive so quickly - probably not until the guy resisted a couple more times and maybe threw a punch - but besides that one aggressive act - I think the other cops did their job effectively and efficiently - and yes, I put it mainly on that one cop because he's the one that was aggressive out of the four but he still had the sense to not hold the choke the whole time and is New York... so...

 

[RandomWords]

Your whacked and just over a 100 posts obviously a shill. Everyone just put the nut job on ignore.

100 posts isn't that many... and over half of them are on my own threads on illegal immigration and those in the love and relationship forum without any relation to cops at all... do I feel protective of cops and a little more biased in their favor - probably, since a lot of my family are cops (city or state) and I know how they do their job and I know the cops and their families that are in their offices - and I recognize that I am a bit biased... I probably should not think every cop is like one of them - but the majority of them are I believe... and I think if more people had cops in their family they would understand cops a little better - just like if everyone had a military person in their family they probably would understand them a bit better.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

It's a lot like how a little brother will defend the fact that older bro is in a gang. They're not that bad, look out for each other.


You're either inside the thin blue line, or not.

 

[LaserBlast]

I feel very bad for the guy and for his family but the fact is, when you undertake a lifestyle of perpetually flouting the law to the tune of over 30 arrests AND you are in very poor physical health (morbidly obese, asthma) and then you top it all off with resisting arrest and making it abundantly clear to officers that you are not going to allow yourself to be taken into custody?

Well, that's a dangerous recipe.

It wasn't Mr. Garner's place to determine whether the offense he was charged with was trivial, or whether the police were taking an excessive interest in "harassing" him (as opposed to just reacting to his continual breaking of the law) and it most certainly wasn't the time or place for him to attempt to engage the officers in some sort of debate about the merits of the law.

Police enforce the laws, they don't make them. Often I'm sure they end up enforcing laws they themselves find silly. But the time and place for such discussions from Mr. Garner's perspective was at the precinct, in a courtroom, or his lawyer's office.

If you're enormous don't be shocked when police believe they have to go the extra mile to subdue you, and err on the side of compliance. If your health is on the margins, this goes double.

 

[JEDIYoda]

I feel very bad for the guy and for his family but the fact is, when you undertake a lifestyle of perpetually flouting the law to the tune of over 30 arrests AND you are in very poor physical health (morbidly obese, asthma) and then you top it all off with resisting arrest and making it abundantly clear to officers that you are not going to allow yourself to be taken into custody?

Well, that's a dangerous recipe.

It wasn't Mr. Garner's place to determine whether the offense he was charged with was trivial, or whether the police were taking an excessive interest in "harassing" him (as opposed to just reacting to his continual breaking of the law) and it most certainly wasn't the time or place for him to attempt to engage the officers in some sort of debate about the merits of the law.

Police enforce the laws, they don't make them. Often I'm sure they end up enforcing laws they themselves find silly. But the time and place for such discussions from Mr. Garner's perspective was at the precinct,in a courtroom, or his lawyer's office.

If you're enormous don't be shocked when police believe they have to go the extra mile to subdue you, and err on the side of compliance. If your health is on the margins, this goes double.

I still don`t understand how the Police used all their training and experience to subdue the man in such a manner as to eventually kill him.......makes you wonder what kind of training our Police are given!! Then on the other hand they couldn`t have just given him a summons to appear....nah that would have been too easy...

 

[LaserBlast]

I still don`t understand how the Police used all their training and experience to subdue the man in such a manner as to eventually kill him.......makes you wonder what kind of training our Police are given!! Then on the other hand they couldn`t have just given him a summons to appear....nah that would have been too easy...

I believe police are taught that when someone (particularly someone with a long rap sheet and who is physically gargantuan) begins to get belligerent and starts to resist arrest, the priority is to subdue that person as fast as they possibly can.

I think they're taught this because of how quickly things can go south, and an officer can end up injured or dead, if they hesitate.

A person who is facing arrest can often be a very desperate and violent individual because of that situation. Hence the old "I can't go back to jail" line hardened criminals are stereotypically known for saying as they do whatever it takes to avoid apprehension.

Now, I fully agree that Mr. Garner's violation was minor, but I don't think this sort of life saving police training allows for such considerations. For it to work, it has to get to the point where it is almost a reflex for them. Someone starts getting rowdy? Take them down instantly and forcefully.

How many rookie officers have learned this the hard way when a suspect pulled a hidden weapon or even grabbed the officer's own gun? It happens.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

I feel like cops need to look at use of force more carefully. Everytime they take down someone, its like 20 officers gotta dogpile the dude. Really?

 

[Mai72]

I believe police are taught that when someone (particularly someone with a long rap sheet and who is physically gargantuan) begins to get belligerent and starts to resist arrest, the priority is to subdue that person as fast as they possibly can.

I think they're taught this because of how quickly things can go south, and an officer can end up injured or dead, if they hesitate.

A person who is facing arrest can often be a very desperate and violent individual because of that situation. Hence the old "I can't go back to jail" line hardened criminals are stereotypically known for saying as they do whatever it takes to avoid apprehension.

Now, I fully agree that Mr. Garner's violation was minor, but I don't think this sort of life saving police training allows for such considerations. For it to work, it has to get to the point where it is almost a reflex for them. Someone starts getting rowdy? Take them down instantly and forcefully.

How many rookie officers have learned this the hard way when a suspect pulled a hidden weapon or even grabbed the officer's own gun? It happens.

How would a woman police officer have handled this incident? Women are much better at communicating, and I bet if a woman police officer was involved this incident would have turned out differently. The problem is the people involved were your typical meatheads. Action first and communication second. We need more women and minorities on our police forces.

I don't care if he was arrested 30 times. Choke holds are not allowed, but the police continue to use them. What the police did was wrong. The people involved used excessive force and should be punished.

 

[pcgeek11]

The problem is the people involved were your typical meatheads. Action first and communication second. We need more women and minorities on our police forces.

I don't understand the minorities part of what you said. The women part I get, but the minority part is questionable at best.

 

[dmcowen674]

LaserBlast
Junior Member



Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 2



I feel very bad for the guy and for his family but the fact is, when you undertake a lifestyle of perpetually flouting the law to the tune of over 30 arrests AND you are in very poor physical health (morbidly obese, asthma) and then you top it all off with resisting arrest and making it abundantly clear to officers that you are not going to allow yourself to be taken into custody?

Well, that's a dangerous recipe.

It wasn't Mr. Garner's place to determine whether the offense he was charged with was trivial, or whether the police were taking an excessive interest in "harassing" him (as opposed to just reacting to his continual breaking of the law) and it most certainly wasn't the time or place for him to attempt to engage the officers in some sort of debate about the merits of the law.

Police enforce the laws, they don't make them. Often I'm sure they end up enforcing laws they themselves find silly. But the time and place for such discussions from Mr. Garner's perspective was at the precinct, in a courtroom, or his lawyer's office.

If you're enormous don't be shocked when police believe they have to go the extra mile to subdue you, and err on the side of compliance. If your health is on the margins, this goes double.

So are you an NYPD shill?