man dies after NYPD cop puts him in chokehold

[OutHouse]

"I will allow you to put cuffs on me if you can articulate a probable cause to do so. I am calling my lawyer and your actions are currently being recorded."

of which the cops say the standard response "obstruction", then the second you pull back its "resisting" and you die.

 

[HumblePie]

of which the cops say the standard response "obstruction", then the second you pull back its "resisting" and you die.

Haha, no. It's not obstruction at all if you say you are calling your lawyer right now and will follow any instructions they say once your lawyer arrives. Again, nothing puckers them up faster.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

It all depends on what you say at the time. Been there and have stopped more than a few cops in their tracks with the right statements made.

All it takes is,

"I will allow you to put cuffs on me if you can articulate a probable cause to do so. I am calling my lawyer and your actions are currently being recorded."

<snip>

It has more to do with showing that you're simply aware of your rights. The vast majority of LEOs could not care less about citizens' rights, they only care about how much of a pain in the ass you are going to be in court.

Are you a business person who speaks proper grammar, someone who could sway a judge or superior officer's opinion? Then you're going to be treated FAR differently from a thugged out person who is threatening to call his lawyer.


And past that, some LEOs - particularly small town cops, simply don't give a shit either way because they're so corrupt top to bottom that they'll never see justice.

And a LEO can really ruin your day. All the sudden they're claiming you were getting physical/obstructing and that's how your phone/recording device was broken. Next thing you know you've been pepper sprayed, cuffed, and your car has a healthy dent or broken window that was "like that when you were stopped." They're claiming felony obstruction so good luck posting bail unless you own a home. Your lawyer has 24 hours from the arrest date to get the video, so pretty much bet that is long gone by the time you have your bearings straight unless you already know a good attorney.

 

[HumblePie]

You are 100% full of shit. Never have been in a situation where a police officer is attempting to cuff you, resisted, and said "articulate some bullshit" and they stopped arresting you, and let you go. Stfu with that nonsense. At best, they would place you in cuffs, for their safety, and then release you afterwards. Resisting arrest with your body, regardless of what you're saying, is going to get your taken down every single time. Any cop that doesn't do that, is a fucking idiot.

This guy was resisting, and was taken down. Is the cop at fault for him dying? Possibly. I can't find the COD, if it has even been released yet. If it was a direct result of the choke hold, then I think the cop should be punished (and that doesn't mean the family gets millions of dollars, that is fucking stupid in every case). If he died from a heart attack, then no fault. The arrest take down was justified, the method could be suspect. Even if the suspect died from something like a heart attack, I'd still be okay with the officer receiving minor punishment for administering an improper choke hold.

Uhh... yes I have. I even posted the stories about it previous when it happened on this forum.

I've had cops draw guns on me, try to arrest me, and basically screw around with my civil rights previously. All because I just happened to be there when they were in a bad mood I suppose. Not once have I actually been arrested with cuffs put on me. They HAVE detained me to figure out the story. Which is usually what happens after I tell them that spiel. Worst incident I had was being slammed into a car by an officer with his weapon drawn on me. I even relayed that story when it happened a few years back on this forum. Was coming back from a trip from the beach. Was riding in the back row of a minivan of my friends vehicle. I had my seatbelt on, but laid down to take a nap. I felt the van had stopped and sat up to see what happened. I sat up just as the officer was walking past the van door and he freaked. Drew his gun, yanked opened the door, and was yelling at me to come out. I got out and he spun me around and slammed me at the side of the car and started going for his cuffs. At which point I said pretty much exactly what I said above. Again, his butt puckered so fast he apologized almost immediately. Mention being recorded, lawyers, and asking them to justify their actions on camera now and they change their tune fast.

I will say you only have to do this with bad cops. I know many great cops who have never done anything so stupid.

 

[Dari]

You are 100% full of shit. Never have been in a situation where a police officer is attempting to cuff you, resisted, and said "articulate some bullshit" and they stopped arresting you, and let you go. Stfu with that nonsense. At best, they would place you in cuffs, for their safety, and then release you afterwards. Resisting arrest with your body, regardless of what you're saying, is going to get your taken down every single time. Any cop that doesn't do that, is a fucking idiot.

This guy was resisting, and was taken down. Is the cop at fault for him dying? Possibly. I can't find the COD, if it has even been released yet. If it was a direct result of the choke hold, then I think the cop should be punished (and that doesn't mean the family gets millions of dollars, that is fucking stupid in every case). If he died from a heart attack, then no fault. The arrest take down was justified, the method could be suspect. Even if the suspect died from something like a heart attack, I'd still be okay with the officer receiving minor punishment for administering an improper choke hold.

What I quoted is stupid. The awards are meant to prevent the institutions from going unpunished. Unlike an individual, you cannot send the NYPD to prison, same thing for a corporation. The only way to get at them is where it hurts, in their pockets. WTF should be given in lieu of a reward? A fucking apology? Get the fuck outta here. The cop will be dealt with but the institution must get the blame as well.

 

[trenchfoot]

It depends on on a couple of things as to whether a rear naked choke is air, blood, or both. If you turn the head toward the elbow that is encircling the neck, it will prevent it from being much of an air choke. But if you look more straight ahead as in the photo, and the style is blade of the forearm as you also see in the pic; it is solely an air choke there. He is failing to close off either side of the neck in that pic which is necessary to cut off blood supply. It does not mean application is wrong, it is simply a different choke. A much more brutal choke, since it is painful to have the windpipe compressed like that.

Understood. :thumbsup:

Allow me to amend my comment from not properly applying a "choke hold" to not properly applying a "sleeper hold."

 

[pcgeek11]

You guys on the offended patrol need to take note: The fact is that if you are being truly choked you will not be able to breath either in or out. You will not be able to talk or scream. Even with the air that is already in your lungs.

That being said, what I am not saying is that the dude deserved to die for selling illegal smokes or anything else. It seems that lots of people in here want to get on the pity parade when anyone makes a remark to contradict their preconceived ideas of what happened, when they have no idea.

IMO there is plenty of blame to go around here in this case including the police, the EMTs and the poor dude that had a heart attack and died. A heart attack will also cause your face to turn blue, in case you didn&#8217;t know.
If the police had not taken this dude down, If the dude had not fought / resisted arrest, or the EMT&#8217;s had taken more care and performed a Tracheal Intubation and CPR. Any of these or a combination may have prevented his death.

Another fun fact is None of us know all of the details. The guy that died seems to have some extensive history with the police. From his size he also probably had some heart and other medical issues that were Intensified by the take down. They have to deal with this shit all day every day. I couldn&#8217;t deal with these dirtballs every day. The EMT&#8217;s as far as I can tell have no excuse for their action or should I say inaction. The dead guy... well he was heading down this road on his own for a long time...

I am not blaming any one person or group. I do not think the police intentionally harmed this man, I also do not think that this dude was going to harm anyone, but was just putting on his Thug Act. They are all equally at fault in my opinion. Which I know none of you give a shit what my opinion is and vice versa.

For everyone that is calling me an idiot, moron ... for trying to justify the police actions ( which I did not ). You need to look in the mirror and not be so quick to blame either. Every story has two sides.

 

[HomerJS]

You guys on the offended patrol need to take note: The fact is that if you are being truly choked you will not be able to breath either in or out. You will not be able to talk or scream. Even with the air that is already in your lungs.

That being said, what I am not saying is that the dude deserved to die for selling illegal smokes or anything else. It seems that lots of people in here want to get on the pity parade when anyone makes a remark to contradict their preconceived ideas of what happened, when they have no idea.

IMO there is plenty of blame to go around here in this case including the police, the EMTs and the poor dude that had a heart attack and died. A heart attack will also cause your face to turn blue, in case you didn’t know.
If the police had not taken this dude down, If the dude had not fought / resisted arrest, or the EMT’s had taken more care and performed a Tracheal Intubation and CPR. Any of these or a combination may have prevented his death.

Another fun fact is None of us know all of the details. The guy that died seems to have some extensive history with the police. From his size he also probably had some heart and other medical issues that were Intensified by the take down. They have to deal with this shit all day every day. I couldn’t deal with these dirtballs every day. The EMT’s as far as I can tell have no excuse for their action or should I say inaction. The dead guy... well he was heading down this road on his own for a long time...

I am not blaming any one person or group. I do not think the police intentionally harmed this man, I also do not think that this dude was going to harm anyone, but was just putting on his Thug Act. They are all equally at fault in my opinion. Which I know none of you give a shit what my opinion is and vice versa.

For everyone that is calling me an idiot, moron ... for trying to justify the police actions ( which I did not ). You need to look in the mirror and not be so quick to blame either. Every story has two sides.

Was I can say the police intentionally applied a choke to cut off air not blood flow to brain. A trained professional can differentiate.

A layman can conclude cutting off ones air supply is likely to cause harm.

 

[Attic]

Im sure they will determine these bozo cops followed procedure and clear them of any wrong doing.

This. But you forgot the thorough and detailed investigation that will be involved, so of course given that the cops followed procedure and will be cleared of any wrong doing. I mean it will be a "thorough" investigation.

I can already smell an 8 figure lawsuit. Stop suing the taxpayer and start suing the departments, give the cops a goddamned gremlin to drive around in instead of new cop cars all the time if innocents keep dying in such manners.

 

[Mani]

Fuck you.

I didn't " Try" and justify anything. I just stated the fact that If you can talk you can breath. Simple.

I didn't say they were justified in choking anyone. So quit making shit up in your simple little mind.

You're a genius, pcgeek. Everyone else is stupid. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

 

[who?]

It has already been said that chokeholds aren't procedure in N.Y. city.

 

[5150Joker]

Everyone in the world is jealous of our freedoms in the US....freedom to get choked or shot to death by shitty overzealous cops.

 

[pcgeek11]

You're a genius, pcgeek. Everyone else is stupid. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Thank you. Why do you think everyone else is stupid? I don't. Just the ones that automatically thinks anyone that disagrees with them is a ___________ ( insert insult here ). You know like you did. Even in light of the fact that if you cannot breath you cannot speak or scream. Even if you still have air in your lungs. Choking works both ways for air ( in and out ).

 

[Ancalagon44]

What I quoted is stupid. The awards are meant to prevent the institutions from going unpunished. Unlike an individual, you cannot send the NYPD to prison, same thing for a corporation. The only way to get at them is where it hurts, in their pockets. WTF should be given in lieu of a reward? A fucking apology? Get the fuck outta here. The cop will be dealt with but the institution must get the blame as well.

You send the cops to prison for their crimes and don't fine the departments.

Fining the PDs is just depriving them of resources because of the actions of a few. It actually hurts everybody. Sending bad cops to prison is exactly what they need. Hold cops personally responsible for their actions, and suddenly this would all stop very quickly.

 

[her209]

Not angry at all.

The point is: If you can talk or scream, you can breath. It is a simple fact. Nothing more nothing less. He was screaming " I can't breath " which is not true because he was screaming.

Now for another fact, they may have cut off the blood flow to his brain...

Do you need me to explain this to you simpletons too?

How about this fact. Don't fight the cops. You are going to lose, every time.

A person screaming for help isn't really drowning either because they can scream, .i.e., breathe.

😀

 

[HumblePie]

As for not breathing while screaming.....

When you have a chokehold put on you, especially if it is done incorrectly, it is going to limit air flow. It is not always going to stop all airflow, but it is going to severly impact it. So a reduced airflow along with the exertion that is automatic from the body to try to break free of the chokehold is going to add demands for more oxygen. It's like trying to run a marathon while breathing through a coffee stirring straw. Sure you can get some air in, but it isn't going to be enough. You'll still eventually die due to asphyxiation. Getting some air in doesn't mean getting enough air in. BIG difference.

 

[trenchfoot]

I can't wait for the autopsy to get released. I bet the NYPD is calling in a lot of chips owed to get that report either legally suppressed as evidence or biased in their favor.

Either way, I'm also wondering how high up the chain of command and into the realm of political CYA this incident is going to go.

 

[Attic]

It was a lurking heart issue guys. Can't be a cover up, prove it.

/hides all evidence and corrupts the reports

No cover up, see.

 

[Pipeline 1010]

Thank you. Why do you think everyone else is stupid? I don't. Just the ones that automatically thinks anyone that disagrees with them is a ___________ ( insert insult here ). You know like you did. Even in light of the fact that if you cannot breath you cannot speak or scream. Even if you still have air in your lungs. Choking works both ways for air ( in and out ).

The whole "if you can speak or scream then you can breathe" line is not always true. Asphyxiation is not always about getting NO air...it is also about not getting enough air...eventually leading to loss of consciousness and/or brain damage and/or death.

An example of this is when I have allergies and my nose is stuffy, I can breath in only a slight amount through my nose. I can get enough air to say words or to scream, but it's not enough to keep me alive very long without switching to mouth breathing or taking medicine to clear my sinuses. I have seen lots of stories where a burglar breaks into a house and ties people up and tapes their mouth shut. If my mouth was taped shut during allergy season, I would pass out within minutes and die shortly thereafter.

I really wish people would stop saying that if you can speak or scream then you can breathe. It's just not true and is almost exclusively used as a justification as to why it's OK for police to asphyxiate somebody to death.

That being said, if the dude had a heart attack there's not much the police could have done about it in this case and the asphyxiation thing is probably irrelevant anyway.

 

[Pipeline 1010]

As for not breathing while screaming.....

When you have a chokehold put on you, especially if it is done incorrectly, it is going to limit air flow. It is not always going to stop all airflow, but it is going to severly impact it. So a reduced airflow along with the exertion that is automatic from the body to try to break free of the chokehold is going to add demands for more oxygen. It's like trying to run a marathon while breathing through a coffee stirring straw. Sure you can get some air in, but it isn't going to be enough. You'll still eventually die due to asphyxiation. Getting some air in doesn't mean getting enough air in. BIG difference.

Oops I didn't see this post before my last one. You said it earlier and better than I did.

 

[waggy]

ohh glad you guys said it. it's been bothering me.

 

[dmcowen674]

So far they are going after the First Responders that did nothing that resembled a response:

7-22-2014

http://nypost.com/2014/07/20/4-ems-workers-barred-from-duty-after-chokehold-death/

4 EMS workers barred from duty after chokehold death



A seven-minute video captured the last few minutes of diabetic dad Eric Garner’s life — and the apparent procedural lapses by two medics and two EMTs, sources told The Post.


“It was pretty obvious this patient was in distress,” a source said. “His body was limp and lifeless.”

Yet none of the workers — nor the eight cops on hand — can be seen in the video administering any aid to Garner. One medic at Garner’s side doesn’t even have any of the required equipment on her, such as an oxygen bag or a defibrillator

“You can [only] hear her say, ‘Oh, he can’t walk to the bus?’&#8201;” the source said.

Garner should have been immediately placed on a stretcher, and his airway, breathing and circulation checked, sources said. Instead, EMT Nicole Palmeri can be seen only checking for a pulse. She never uses a stethoscope to check his lungs for air movement, a source said, nor does she connect him to an oxygen mask.

 

[werepossum]

So far they are going after the First Responders that did nothing that resembled a response:

7-22-2014

http://nypost.com/2014/07/20/4-ems-workers-barred-from-duty-after-chokehold-death/

4 EMS workers barred from duty after chokehold death



A seven-minute video captured the last few minutes of diabetic dad Eric Garner’s life — and the apparent procedural lapses by two medics and two EMTs, sources told The Post.


“It was pretty obvious this patient was in distress,” a source said. “His body was limp and lifeless.”

Yet none of the workers — nor the eight cops on hand — can be seen in the video administering any aid to Garner. One medic at Garner’s side doesn’t even have any of the required equipment on her, such as an oxygen bag or a defibrillator

“You can [only] hear her say, ‘Oh, he can’t walk to the bus?’&#8201;” the source said.

Garner should have been immediately placed on a stretcher, and his airway, breathing and circulation checked, sources said. Instead, EMT Nicole Palmeri can be seen only checking for a pulse. She never uses a stethoscope to check his lungs for air movement, a source said, nor does she connect him to an oxygen mask.

Sounds to me like they SHOULD be barred from work.

One thing that needs to be drilled into every police officer: You don't start a fight because you fear there might be a fight. If you are interviewing someone who is going to start a fight with cops, that person is almost certain to do so if you try to cuff him and he's done nothing wrong. (And if he doesn't start a fight when you try to cuff him, that probably means he's going to sue your ass. Lose-lose.)

 

[HomerJS]

So far they are going after the First Responders that did nothing that resembled a response:

7-22-2014

http://nypost.com/2014/07/20/4-ems-workers-barred-from-duty-after-chokehold-death/

4 EMS workers barred from duty after chokehold death



A seven-minute video captured the last few minutes of diabetic dad Eric Garner’s life — and the apparent procedural lapses by two medics and two EMTs, sources told The Post.


“It was pretty obvious this patient was in distress,” a source said. “His body was limp and lifeless.”

Yet none of the workers — nor the eight cops on hand — can be seen in the video administering any aid to Garner. One medic at Garner’s side doesn’t even have any of the required equipment on her, such as an oxygen bag or a defibrillator

“You can [only] hear her say, ‘Oh, he can’t walk to the bus?’&#8201;” the source said.

Garner should have been immediately placed on a stretcher, and his airway, breathing and circulation checked, sources said. Instead, EMT Nicole Palmeri can be seen only checking for a pulse. She never uses a stethoscope to check his lungs for air movement, a source said, nor does she connect him to an oxygen mask.

EMTs suspended without pay.

Why do cops get desk duty with pay??

 

[KK]

EMTs suspended without pay.

Why do cops get desk duty with pay??

Why, because they are a protected class, just ask the folks that run this place. I think they have been instructed by the authorities to crack down on anybody wishing ill will on them.