Malak's Scripture of the Day

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Nik

Lifer
Jun 5, 2006
16,101
3
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Yes, a lot of things are 'told' in the bible by its authors.

And you're saying you believe it as truth of what went down and how? Now you're contradicting yourself.

Hardly. God is a god of love, according to the Bible; yet in the same Bible, god commands David to go kill an entire nation. He stones sinners to death and condemns everyone who doesn't accept his forgiveness to an eternal suffering in hell.

Yeah, that's totally a god of love.

I was pointing out loopholes.

Do try to keep up, mkay?
 

dartworth

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
15,200
10
81
wiyg.pl.gif
 

Nik

Lifer
Jun 5, 2006
16,101
3
56
Know what's even funnier?

I'm getting PMs from Malak continuing the argument. He just won't stop. He's telling me that I'm cramming my beliefs down other people's throats (yeah, a public forum is SO repressing), yet he's the one that won't leave me alone via PM, lol.

"Jesus save me from your followers!"
 

Miramonti

Lifer
Aug 26, 2000
28,653
100
106
Hardly. God is a god of love, according to the Bible; yet in the same Bible, god commands David to go kill an entire nation. He stones sinners to death and condemns everyone who doesn't accept his forgiveness to an eternal suffering in hell.

Yeah, that's totally a god of love.

I was pointing out loopholes.

Do try to keep up, mkay?

You're mistaken, I'm not defending the bible by any stretch, only anyone's insinuation or erroneous conclusion that the world would be a better place without religion. Fight the basis for a religion all you want, the results will be roughly the same (different, yes, but not any better.)

Pointing to the bible where it says God initiated or provoked atrocities is hardly proof that there would be 'angelic' behavior without any of these statements in the bible. Like you mentioned yourself, they can perhaps be questionable as a historical reference of fact.

There won't be any benefits to the abolition of all religions unless you remove people from the equation at the same time, 'atheists' and 'believers'. (not that I'm advocating this :p) [<--- qualification made for the NSA data mining files.]
 
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Crono

Lifer
Aug 8, 2001
23,720
1,502
136
Know what's even funnier?

I'm getting PMs from Malak continuing the argument. He just won't stop. He's telling me that I'm cramming my beliefs down other people's throats (yeah, a public forum is SO repressing), yet he's the one that won't leave me alone via PM, lol.

"Jesus save me from your followers!"

Your avatar is provoking him :D
 

Nik

Lifer
Jun 5, 2006
16,101
3
56
You're mistaken, I'm not defending the bible by any stretch, only anyone's insinuation or erroneous conclusion that the world would be a better place without religion. Fight the basis for a religion all you want, the results will be roughly the same (different, yes, but not any better.)

Pointing to the bible where it says God initiated or provoked atrocities is hardly proof that there would be 'angelic' behavior without any of these statements in the bible. Like you mentioned yourself, they can perhaps be questionable as a historical reference of fact.

There won't be any benefits to the abolition of all religions unless you remove people from the equation at the same time, 'atheists' and 'believers'. (not that I'm advocating this :p) [<--- qualification made for the NSA data mining files.]

Your statement MIGHT hold water, if humans of today were of the same primitive mindset that they were back in the day.

People who use religion in any way, whether it's justifying mass murder (see: terrorism and the crusades) or going door to door cramming a magic invisible man in the sky down everyone's throat, are of a primitive and dying mindset.

Evolved society is quickly outgrowing a need for religion as a crutch to support them and give them hope in situations they don't understand. Religion is nothing more than a de-evolution, a step backwards in the race for human evolution.
 

Crono

Lifer
Aug 8, 2001
23,720
1,502
136
Evolved society is quickly outgrowing a need for religion as a crutch to support them and give them hope in situations they don't understand. Religion is nothing more than a de-evolution, a step backwards in the race for human evolution.

Societies "evolve" in the modern sense of that word: they change, but not necessarily for the better.

Our society might switch to one that is predominantly atheist or agnostic, but there will be belief systems to take the place of religions that have passed. Human beings will always, always have the need for faith because humans will always have the need for hope, and a naturalistic belief system is not superior to other religion in any way. Any problems that religions create - overzealous adherents, hypocrisy, manipulation of people - all that will remain.

If you think that some golden age brought in by scientific purity and an end to religion is coming, prepare to be disappointed. Human nature is the problem, not religion. I sincerely hope you aren't fooling yourself by thinking otherwise; even many agnostics and atheists that post here realize that what I am saying is true.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
Your statement MIGHT hold water, if humans of today were of the same primitive mindset that they were back in the day.

People who use religion in any way, whether it's justifying mass murder (see: terrorism and the crusades) or going door to door cramming a magic invisible man in the sky down everyone's throat, are of a primitive and dying mindset.

Evolved society is quickly outgrowing a need for religion as a crutch to support them and give them hope in situations they don't understand. Religion is nothing more than a de-evolution, a step backwards in the race for human evolution.

someone's placing humanity on quite the high pedestal. :p

We've progressed past a primitive mindset and are outgrowing a need for religion?

If only we were half the way to that being the truth. I fear for our future with the way we keep hopping along with these damn crutches. We're gonna break something the longer we rely on the crutches. We need physical therapy, bad.
:D
 

Miramonti

Lifer
Aug 26, 2000
28,653
100
106
Your statement MIGHT hold water, if humans of today were of the same primitive mindset that they were back in the day.

People who use religion in any way, whether it's justifying mass murder (see: terrorism and the crusades) or going door to door cramming a magic invisible man in the sky down everyone's throat, are of a primitive and dying mindset.

Evolved society is quickly outgrowing a need for religion as a crutch to support them and give them hope in situations they don't understand. Religion is nothing more than a de-evolution, a step backwards in the race for human evolution.

Exactly. Religion has been used as a crutch. Get rid of all religions and what do you lose?...one crutch.

You still have political prejudice, racism, gender bias, nationalism, and so on, and so on, all things that existed even before the forming of religions and all things that lead to divisions among people. People will also find crutches to be positive, whether they have what you call the crutch of a religion or not.

I think its delusional to think for a second that the elimination of one crutch, even a common one, is going to change anything over the long run with human nature.
 
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Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
20
81
Societies "evolve" in the modern sense of that word: they change, but not necessarily for the better.

Our society might switch to one that is predominantly atheist or agnostic, but there will be belief systems to take the place of religions that have passed. Human beings will always, always have the need for faith because humans will always have the need for hope, and a naturalistic belief system is not superior to other religion in any way. Any problems that religions create - overzealous adherents, hypocrisy, manipulation of people - all that will remain.

If you think that some golden age brought in by scientific purity and an end to religion is coming, prepare to be disappointed. Human nature is the problem, not religion. I sincerely hope you aren't fooling yourself by thinking otherwise; even many agnostics and atheists that post here realize that what I am saying is true.
I don't really see any need for a connection between hope and faith.
Faith is believing in the existence of things for which there exists only circumstantial evidence, if even that.
Hope is wanting things which are not currently reality. It's the simple state of wanting things to improve.
And as such, a need for faith is really unnecessary.


And yes, people will still be irrational idiots, with or without religion.
But hey, why not try to strip off some of the extra crap? Especially the notion of an all-powerful deity whose wishes represent ultimate truth, even though no one can agree on what that truth is - that makes things dangerous. When you believe that your actions are in line with the goals of a being which is perfect by definition, anything you do can be rationalized as being just. Anything.
People like absolutes, or at least they think they do, because they're made to be easy to follow. And we can see how very well zero-tolerance laws work in reality - about as well as a jackhammer made of chicken livers.

If your ideals are based on human-made rules (which they already are), and you fully acknowledge and understand that, it makes them less-absolute. Yes, they're still guidelines to follow, but heck, even the US' most basic governing document, the Constitution, has provisions within it that make it possible to change it. And yes, it's flawed. The writers knew this, so it can be edited. (Well, people have also done that to the Bible over the ages, but, you know, that doesn't count. Somehow.)
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
Societies "evolve" in the modern sense of that word: they change, but not necessarily for the better.

Our society might switch to one that is predominantly atheist or agnostic, but there will be belief systems to take the place of religions that have passed. Human beings will always, always have the need for faith because humans will always have the need for hope, and a naturalistic belief system is not superior to other religion in any way. Any problems that religions create - overzealous adherents, hypocrisy, manipulation of people - all that will remain.

If you think that some golden age brought in by scientific purity and an end to religion is coming, prepare to be disappointed. Human nature is the problem, not religion. I sincerely hope you aren't fooling yourself by thinking otherwise; even many agnostics and atheists that post here realize that what I am saying is true.

Truth.

I don't quite think there is absolutely no hope for a peace and harmony fueled civilization, but I absolutely do not see it happening within the next century for sure, but who knows. Social change keeps moving at a rate that I don't think we can predict the future simply using the historical talking points of social progress.

Fairly confident there is going to be something pretty close to fire and brimstone within the next 100 years, we're going to go through some rough shit. It'll hopefully be out of the ashes that a better society emerges.

But the hot button issue: we need to figure a way out to physically evolve our brains, manipulate the genetics to give us less of a need on faith. It's hardwired in our brains, and couple that with other very natural primal behavior on the part of man, it just combines for one nasty solution.
No matter what odd things one chooses to "believe", humanity thoroughly enjoys boiling everything down to "one of us, or one of them". It doesn't matter the topic, doesn't matter the reasons, everything has at least one opposite, and everyone HAS to fall into a camp of certain beliefs. That's our tribal nature, it's what defines more advanced primates from other animals on Earth, and what helped lead to humans. Tribalism helped increase our social capabilities, and we rely on them to continue on. But they are also our enemy, and is what leads to conflicts over so many topics.
We drop religion, surely we'll replace it with something else to feud over.

The best answer is to develop a way to completely unify all of humanity, no more damn inside and outside groups. If everyone treats another like a brother/sister, that will be a huge step. How we can go about accomplishing such a feat, hell if I know.
Major think tanks need to get working on THAT. Sociologists love to create all these pretty sounding theories of how we can move toward a peaceful future, where no man can take advantage of another. That's the wrong approach, because we are human, and as long as we hold progress on a lofty pedestal (absolutely necessary, living as tribes in the mountains is a waste of our capability as a species - we need to capitalize on everything of which we are capable), man will remain more individualistic than community-focused.
Sociology has no clue how to force man to accept everyone as one big group, they just think that's a good idea. We need to figure a way out how to get there, and we can keep many of our same ideals and still accomplish that. Everyone can respect one another like brothers and still compete for progress, friendly competition benefits everyone.
 

Nik

Lifer
Jun 5, 2006
16,101
3
56
Societies "evolve" in the modern sense of that word: they change, but not necessarily for the better.

Our society might switch to one that is predominantly atheist or agnostic, but there will be belief systems to take the place of religions that have passed. Human beings will always, always have the need for faith because humans will always have the need for hope, and a naturalistic belief system is not superior to other religion in any way. Any problems that religions create - overzealous adherents, hypocrisy, manipulation of people - all that will remain.

If you think that some golden age brought in by scientific purity and an end to religion is coming, prepare to be disappointed. Human nature is the problem, not religion. I sincerely hope you aren't fooling yourself by thinking otherwise; even many agnostics and atheists that post here realize that what I am saying is true.

Speak for yourself. I don't need religion. I do need faith, but not blind faith. I have faith based on things SEEN, based on evidence that gives me reason to believe. Religion bets everything based on completely unsubstantiated claims.

Does god exist? Well come right down out of the fuckin clouds on a fiery chariot, land in front of me, and talk with me. Prove you exist. Give me REASON to believe.

Until then? Take your narrow-minded-crutch garbage and shove it :)
 

Nik

Lifer
Jun 5, 2006
16,101
3
56
Exactly. Religion has been used as a crutch. Get rid of all religions and what do you lose?...one crutch.

You still have political prejudice, racism, gender bias, nationalism, and so on, and so on, all things that existed even before the forming of religions and all things that lead to divisions among people. People will also find reasons to be positive, whether they have what you call the 'crutch' of a religion or not.

I think its delusional to think for a second that the elimination of one crutch, even a common one, is going to change anything over the long run with human nature.

Think of it as a mathematical equation. Removing one variable brings you closer to the truth.

The removal of religion is simply one step in the staircase of evolution toward a peaceful, rational, logical, SANE society.
 

Miramonti

Lifer
Aug 26, 2000
28,653
100
106
Speak for yourself. I don't need religion. I do need faith, but not blind faith. I have faith based on things SEEN, based on evidence that gives me reason to believe. Religion bets everything based on completely unsubstantiated claims.

Does god exist? Well come right down out of the fuckin clouds on a fiery chariot, land in front of me, and talk with me. Prove you exist. Give me REASON to believe.

Until then? Take your narrow-minded-crutch garbage and shove it :)

If you've seen it, what do you need faith for? That's what we call knowledge.
 
S

SlitheryDee

The evidence against this thought is overwhelming. There is no sin committed 2000 years ago that isn't still, daily, being done in this era.

The purpose of that ministry was not to point out that sin, but the lack of good.

The world is nowhere near as primitive and barbarous as it was 2000 years ago. Scientific and technological advancement are the primary reasons for that. The immoral outliers of our society still commit all the sins that a human being is capable of, but they represent a smaller portion of the total population. Freed from endless drudgery by technology, we are able to give much more attention to those who work against the common good for personal gain or because of a malformed social perspective than those of Jesus' time ever could. We have had the benefit of the intervening 2000 years of history to refine our moral sense. It is inevitable that we are more advanced. This advancement goes hand in hand with our prosperity, which has been brought about entirely through science and technical ingenuity. Barring some catastrophic technological breakdown, our descendants 2000 years hence will just as far ahead of us today in both morality and prosperity. By then, christianity will likely be viewed as an interesting bit of history and source of fables like so many dead religions today.

This is not just conjecture. I have read the bible. There are good bits, but they are mixed in with horrors that would NEVER be condoned today. Yet the bible tells them with a straight face and either directly or implicitly communicates God's consent in quite a few. In the bible there are wholesale slaughters ordered or condoned by God that would horrify the vast majority of the earth should they be committed today. That is because we are morally superior to the people of biblical times. We are morally superior to the people who invented the Christian God and by extension we are superior to the God himself. The zeitgeist DOES move on, and in an overwhelmingly positive direction. The best source of morality is right here, right now, rather than the outmoded notions of the distant past.
 
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Miramonti

Lifer
Aug 26, 2000
28,653
100
106
Think of it as a mathematical equation. Removing one variable brings you closer to the truth.

The removal of religion is simply one step in the staircase of evolution toward a peaceful, rational, logical, SANE society.

We probably have more atheists in the world than religious people.

You think they are more responsible in influencing the world towards being peaceful, rational, logical, and sane? Humor me.

And you seem to think that because someone hides behind a religion that its their true motive. I think that's ignorant.
 

Nik

Lifer
Jun 5, 2006
16,101
3
56
We probably have more atheists in the world than religious people.

And you think they are more responsible in influencing the world towards being peaceful, rational, logical, and sane? LOL

And you seem to think that because someone hides behind a religion that its their true motive. I think that's ignorant.

Yep. Religious fanatics are the ones killing abortion clinic physicians, killing "infidels" and the like. Religious people are far more dangerous than non-religious people.
 

waffleironhead

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,061
569
136
this seems to boil down to malaks ability to pick and choose what he believe is true in the bible.
anything good=true
anything bad=false
 

Miramonti

Lifer
Aug 26, 2000
28,653
100
106
Yep. Religious fanatics are the ones killing abortion clinic physicians, killing "infidels" and the like. Religious people are far more dangerous than non-religious people.

That's shallow propaganda. I think you need to consider how many religious wars and conflicts the US has fought in this past century vs. how many non-religious ones. After that, take it to the street level...consider how many religious murders there are every year in this country vs. how many non-religious murders.

And so on.

To suggest religion is the problem and not people in general is not supported by the facts.
 
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destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
If you've seen it, what do you need faith for? That's what we call knowledge.

one could argue that kind of faith, is one in which an individual believes something will happen because it was witnessed at some point prior.

For example, one might say I have faith that my car will start tomorrow. It's started every day before (except for the days it did not - damn thing, but alas that was fixed awhile ago), but there is no way I can be absolutely certain it will start tomorrow, until I go to find out.

I have faith I will wake up in the morning. I most certainly will never know the night before that I'll just drop dead in my sleep.

I have faith that I'll be able to walk outside tomorrow and breath safely. I have no way of being certain that someone won't release some toxic gas nearby, or worse.. the air, for some reason just... vanishes.
I'll blame the wind, since obviously it's not air. The wind will steal it all away. And I'll surely suffocate, and that'd be a pure knowledge and not faith situation. I know without air to breathe, I'd pass out, and expect that I'd die shortly after. Of which would most definitely be very not cool.

I think the distinction he was using was that faith is taking things we know, and using logical reasoning to deduce very very likely predictions, but shit happens and we have no way of predicting future events, no matter our level of knowledge, to 100% accuracy.

Blind faith, is having absolutely no observable evidence to support lofty claims.