Malak's Scripture of the Day

[Hayabusa Rider]

Think of it as a mathematical equation. Removing one variable brings you closer to the truth.

The removal of religion is simply one step in the staircase of evolution toward a peaceful, rational, logical, SANE society.

Not really. Evolution doesn't have a staircase. It is mindless as a rock, so we can dispense with the SNG concept.

Second, removal of religion won't change the nature of humans. As an example, the USSR and Mao's China killed more people than any religious cause.

As long as humans are social animals with the instinct of dominance, they will use religion, politics, money, anything that works.

When you figure out how to get rid of the need for control then get back to us.

Look at this thread. You've gone ballistic and need to show your superiority over the religious. You want to win, You want to show that you are superior.

Well, you aren't really, but you feel the need to show that you are better.

No I'm not picking on you, I'm just pointing out that humans arguing for rational behavior often do so by being emotional.

As for me, I'm not concerned as to who's right. I master myself or nothing.

 

[grrl]

posting in epic thread.

this space for rent.

obvious Bible trolling thread is obvious.

Fixed to add my two character minimum

 

[destrekor]

this seems to boil down to malaks ability to pick and choose what he believe is true in the bible.
anything good=true
anything bad=false

also ignoring facts.
wind ≠ air
?lol

 

[Nik]

Not really. Evolution doesn't have a staircase. It is mindless as a rock, so we can dispense with the SNG concept.

Second, removal of religion won't change the nature of humans. As an example, the USSR and Mao's China killed more people than any religious cause.

As long as humans are social animals with the instinct of dominance, they will use religion, politics, money, anything that works.

When you figure out how to get rid of the need for control then get back to us.

Look at this thread. You've gone ballistic and need to show your superiority over the religious. You want to win, You want to show that you are superior.

Well, you aren't really, but you feel the need to show that you are better.

No I'm not picking on you, I'm just pointing out that humans arguing for rational behavior often do so by being emotional.

As for me, I'm not concerned as to who's right. I master myself or nothing.

You read too much into my posts. I don't have a need to feel superior. I simply have a need to free my fellow humans from the brainwashed shackles of religion for the betterment of mankind.

You're right that humans will continue to be savages on some level, but we ARE getting better. We ARE evolving into a better society. One day that society will be 10x better and religion will be gone.

Everybody knows this

 

[zerocool84]

The only conclusion I offer is that love is the most important thing in our lives. It is the conclusion presented in the Gospel. Evidence is unnecessary, the only thing rejected is hate.

Sounds just like a politician avoiding the questions at hand. Saying something not even remotely close s an answer.

 

[DrPizza]

"The greatest cause of atheism in the world today is..."

Critical thinking.
(fixed that for you.)

 

[DangerAardvark]

You read it like it affirms their right to put someone to death for not believing. That is not true. There are many stories and scriptures in the bible that show people doing things wrong. In no way does it ever condone these things. It is history, detailing events that took place. Jesus showed exactly how God feels about such things when he stopped the stoning of the woman for her sins. He showed her mercy and told her to go and sin no more.

Actually, a mere two verses later we find this:

2 Chronicles 15:15All Judah rejoiced concerning the oath [the conversion upon pain of death], for they had sworn with their whole heart and had sought Him earnestly, and He let them find Him. So the LORD gave them rest on every side.

The meaning of "rest" in this context: peace, safety, serenity. Aww God's such a swell guy.

 

[FeuerFrei]

(Haven't gone through the whole thread. Not sure if this has been addressed.)

Hardly. God is a god of love, according to the Bible; yet in the same Bible, god commands David to go kill an entire nation. He stones sinners to death and condemns everyone who doesn't accept his forgiveness to an eternal suffering in hell.

Yeah, that's totally a god of love.

I was pointing out loopholes.

Do try to keep up, mkay?

"god commands David to go kill an entire nation"
Doubtless God used the nation of Israel as a tool of judgment on various surrounding nations. I'm sure they were justly deserving. When you're God, you can make that call. There's a thing called sovereignty. Justness and love are not mutually exclusive.

"He stones sinners to death"
What? You mean Jesus, the guy who said "let him who is without sin cast the first stone" when the Sadducees were about to stone a woman taken in adultery? Then when her accusers walked away, told her "Go and sin no more"?

"condemns everyone who doesn't accept his forgiveness to an eternal suffering in hell"
That would be the penalty for sin/unrighteousness and the consequence for not accepting the free gift of salvation. You aren't condemned simply for turning down the offer. Technicality
Note that if someone arranges a penalty, it doesn't mean they don't love you. Surely you recognize that.

 

[Jeff7]

...
"condemns everyone who doesn't accept his forgiveness to an eternal suffering in hell"
That would be the penalty for sin/unrighteousness and the consequence for not accepting the free gift of salvation. You aren't condemned simply for turning down the offer. Technicality
Note that if someone arranges a penalty, it doesn't mean they don't love you. Surely you recognize that.

Well you know....eternal punishment of an unimaginable magnitude just seems a tiny bit extreme for anyone, don't you think?
Though, once you're in Hell, is that it? No chance of thinking it over, changing your mind, and getting out after 200 quadrillion years of torture?

 

[DangerAardvark]

(Haven't gone through the whole thread. Not sure if this has been addressed.)


"god commands David to go kill an entire nation"
Doubtless God used the nation of Israel as a tool of judgment on various surrounding nations. I'm sure they were justly deserving. When you're God, you can make that call. There's a thing called sovereignty. Justness and love are not mutually exclusive.

"He stones sinners to death"
What? You mean Jesus, the guy who said "let him who is without sin cast the first stone" when the Sadducees were about to stone a woman taken in adultery? Then when her accusers walked away, told her "Go and sin no more"?

"condemns everyone who doesn't accept his forgiveness to an eternal suffering in hell"
That would be the penalty for sin/unrighteousness and the consequence for not accepting the free gift of salvation. You aren't condemned simply for turning down the offer. Technicality
Note that if someone arranges a penalty, it doesn't mean they don't love you. Surely you recognize that.

You call eternal suffering a "penalty"? And you think you can sentence someone to it and still love them? And you wonder why some people consider religious thought so poisonous?

To pervert the idea of love in such a way is sick and masochistic. To damn someone to a fate worse than death out of LOVE? A loved one literally couldn't do anything to me which would cause me to react in such a way had I the capability. God is a monster.

This is just another way in which religion separates sin from things which cause actual human suffering in this world. The first commandment is a reminder to worship Yahweh and only Yahweh. Murder? Eh, that's 6th; right around honoring your father and mother.

 

[Nik]

(Haven't gone through the whole thread. Not sure if this has been addressed.)


"god commands David to go kill an entire nation"
Doubtless God used the nation of Israel as a tool of judgment on various surrounding nations. I'm sure they were justly deserving. When you're God, you can make that call. There's a thing called sovereignty. Justness and love are not mutually exclusive.

No "god of love" creates the universe and then plays with humans like a little kid does with GIJoes. What kind of god of love creates hoards of people that he knows will suffer for eternity in hell? That's not love, that's an asshole.

"He stones sinners to death"

What? You mean Jesus, the guy who said "let him who is without sin cast the first stone" when the Sadducees were about to stone a woman taken in adultery? Then when her accusers walked away, told her "Go and sin no more"?

Yes, because that's the only instance of stoning in the bible or the only instance in the bible where a sinner receives god's wrath

"condemns everyone who doesn't accept his forgiveness to an eternal suffering in hell"

That would be the penalty for sin/unrighteousness and the consequence for not accepting the free gift of salvation. You aren't condemned simply for turning down the offer. Technicality
Note that if someone arranges a penalty, it doesn't mean they don't love you. Surely you recognize that.

See my first comment.

 

[FeuerFrei]

The removal of religion is simply one step in the staircase of evolution toward a peaceful, rational, logical, SANE society.

You don't have to parrot what some intolerant numbskull advocates.
Think for yourself. Critical thinking right?
What principles or dictums for human behavior will these atheists follow to produce this lovely sane, rational society? Surely there's some rules to ensure peaceful and harmonious relations. No? Should I respect my neighbors' property? Should I lie to my fellow man? Should I value human life? Should I be kind to others? Should I love my wife? Should I help those less fortunate?
Atheism doesn't generate these values. It tells us we are animals and we should follow our nature. We must live to please ourselves. Pursue your passion. You know what kind of hell and chaos erupts when people do that?
Seems to me like the only the Bible holds the truths that govern human relations. I've noticed that those societies that most closely follow Biblical principles are most likely to flourish, abolish tyranny, be civil, respect women, value human life, and generally succeed. The more virtuous a society is, the more freedom it has, and the more prosperity it enjoys. Funny how adherence to Biblical doctrine breeds success. Hmm. Think. Critique that atheism.

 

[Jeff7]

You don't have to parrot what some intolerant numbskull advocates.
Think for yourself. Critical thinking right?
What principles or dictums for human behavior will these atheists follow to produce this lovely sane, rational society? Surely there's some rules to ensure peaceful and harmonious relations. No? Should I respect my neighbors' property? Should I lie to my fellow man? Should I value human life? Should I be kind to others? Should I love my wife? Should I help those less fortunate?
Atheism doesn't generate these values. It tells us we are animals and we should follow our nature. We must live to please ourselves. Pursue your passion. You know what kind of hell and chaos erupts when people do that?
Seems to me like the only the Bible holds the truths that govern human relations. I've noticed that those societies that most closely follow Biblical principles are most likely to flourish, abolish tyranny, be civil, respect women, value human life, and generally succeed. The more virtuous a society is, the more freedom it has, and the more prosperity it enjoys. Funny how adherence to Biblical doctrine breeds success. Hmm. Think. Critique that atheism.

Yup, that's how we all live. Why I killed 15 children just today using weapons fashioned out of kittens, bunnies and tears.

Idiots.

Also:
Respect for women + Biblical values = 0.


Our values don't come from the big invisible Santa Claus in the sky. We make them up. The Bible just credits them to an invisible wizard...which somehow gives them credibility in the minds of some.


Concerning the ideas of theocracy which you are evidently supporting ("The more virtuous a society is, the more freedom it has, and the more prosperity it enjoys. Funny how adherence to Biblical doctrine breeds success.") - yeah, those systems always work out so very well.

 

[FeuerFrei]

Well you know....eternal punishment of an unimaginable magnitude just seems a tiny bit extreme for anyone, don't you think?
Though, once you're in Hell, is that it? No chance of thinking it over, changing your mind, and getting out after 200 quadrillion years of torture?

It's never seemed extreme to me. I've just accepted it.
It tells me the magnitude of my sin. The fact that sin requires such a punishment means it must be pretty intolerable.

I don't relish the idea of Hell as portrayed in the bible any more than you, believe me. I don't think God does either.

 

[Jeff7]

It's never seemed extreme to me. I've just accepted it.
It tells me the magnitude of my sin. The fact that sin requires such a punishment means it must be pretty intolerable.

I don't relish the idea of Hell as portrayed in the bible any more than you, believe me. I don't think God does either.

Wow.

That's just....scary that you would accept that.
Geez, even our own justice system embraces the crazy idea that someone can be redeemed once they're judged to be guilty of a crime.
I guess we should follow God's shining example - you get a short time for redemption, one tiny human lifespan, and if you don't figure out the nature of existence (God is right about everything) by the end of that time, oh well, sucks to be you. Sentence: Hell. No redemption.
Likewise: Once you're judged to be guilty of a crime, you go to jail, and there's no way out. Oh, and we'll legalize torture, since God's ok with it.


That seems utterly horrific. Let's say you live to be 150 years old. 150 years. In that time you need to determine that Jesus/God/whatever is truly the ultimate answer to everything, and really believe it. If you choose wrong, it's an eternity of punishment. If that sounds reasonable to you, I just don't know what to say. I find that idea to be utterly absurd, and even moreso to hold in mind, simultaneously, the idea that the God who would inflict these terrible terms upon his creations is the same God who "loves" them. "Absurd" just doesn't begin to describe it.


And the magnitude of your sin? I thought all sins were equally-bad in God's eyes.
Steal a stick of gum vs kill 200 million sentient lifeforms.
Both are sins, and evidently of equal magnitude, thus both deserve equal punishment, am I right?

I don't think God [relishes the idea of Hell] either.

He's the one in charge of making the rules. Besides, I thought he created everything, and that "it was good." Why's he disappointed with something he made?

 

[FeuerFrei]

Yup, that's how we all live. Why I killed 15 children just today using weapons fashioned out of kittens, bunnies and tears.

Idiots.

Also:
Respect for women + Biblical values = 0.


Our values don't come from the big invisible Santa Claus in the sky. We make them up. The Bible just credits them to an invisible wizard...which somehow gives them credibility in the minds of some.


Concerning the ideas of theocracy which you are evidently supporting ("The more virtuous a society is, the more freedom it has, and the more prosperity it enjoys. Funny how adherence to Biblical doctrine breeds success.") - yeah, those systems always work out so very well.

Hey you may be living by Biblical values. You don't have to believe in God to live by Christian values. We all know that. However you will be way less motivated to act according to those values, especially when others around you are doing the opposite.

I'm not necessarily supporting theocracy. God gave human government for our benefit. I stand by what I said about Biblical principles in society. You would too if you cared to study it.

 

[Jeff7]

Hey you may be living by Biblical values. You don't have to believe in God to live by Christian values. We all know that. However you will be way less motivated to act according to those values, especially when others around you are doing the opposite.

I'm not necessarily supporting theocracy. God gave human government for our benefit. I stand by what I said about Biblical principles in society. You would too if you cared to study it.

They are HUMAN-MADE principles, which happen to have been stashed in the Bible. Some are useful. Some aren't.
I can also find meaningful life lessons in Superbowl commercials if I sift through enough.

I live by a set of ethical rules and values. If some are shared by Christianity, hey, good for you. It doesn't mean that Christianity is responsible for the existence of morals or codes of ethics. Such things existed long before Christianity, or Judaism, or even the concept of monotheism, ever existed. (Yeah, imagine that - for most of our history, the idea of a single god wasn't even on the books. God must've felt so unappreciated all that time, what with his religion being nonexistent and all that.)

Government: It's another human construct, developed to bring order to a society. At its most rudimentary, it would be a single person telling others what he thinks should be done. That's government, and no God was needed to implement it.
But people didn't like doing what someone else said. Some tribes even use a group of people, elders perhaps, to determine the course of their small society. That's government, and again, no God required.

However you will be way less motivated to act according to those values, especially when others around you are doing the opposite.

Based on the prevalence of Christianity, as well as the prevalence of sin and crime, I'd say that being Christian doesn't necessarily do a whole heck of a lot to "motivate" in that respect either.
Besides, you can always get forgiveness, and accept Jesus and all that.
Yeah yeah, BS about sinners and the like not being true Christians....I think that'd mean that there was only possibly one Christian ever: Jesus. (Though could Jesus accept himself as his own lord and savior?)

 

[SlitheryDee]

You don't have to parrot what some intolerant numbskull advocates.
Think for yourself. Critical thinking right?
What principles or dictums for human behavior will these atheists follow to produce this lovely sane, rational society? Surely there's some rules to ensure peaceful and harmonious relations. No? Should I respect my neighbors' property? Should I lie to my fellow man? Should I value human life? Should I be kind to others? Should I love my wife? Should I help those less fortunate?
Atheism doesn't generate these values. It tells us we are animals and we should follow our nature. We must live to please ourselves. Pursue your passion. You know what kind of hell and chaos erupts when people do that?
Seems to me like the only the Bible holds the truths that govern human relations. I've noticed that those societies that most closely follow Biblical principles are most likely to flourish, abolish tyranny, be civil, respect women, value human life, and generally succeed. The more virtuous a society is, the more freedom it has, and the more prosperity it enjoys. Funny how adherence to Biblical doctrine breeds success. Hmm. Think. Critique that atheism.

Adhering to a moral code because it is the ineffable will of a deity is NOT critical thought. Religion is useful only if you can't see the benefits of the behavior it dictates for yourself. Atheism doesn't generate the values you describe any more than religion does though. A society will always come to the conclusion that those behaviors are desirable because they grease the wheels of human interaction. Large groups of people living together have to treat each other decently or they lose the benefits of assembling into large groups. The not so bright members of society may not always be able to reason this out, so we have a man in the sky who provides a more immediate reason for this beneficial behavior. What all this means is that these values must always arise in human populations or they will not survive.

I'm not talking about religion here. I don't need religion to know why I should respect another's property, tell the truth, value human life, be kind to others, or help the less fortunate. I know the source and reason for that behavior on a higher level than religion can provide. This also means that I am less likely to carry around the extra baggage that takes form of outmoded or irrelevant codes of conduct that can only persist when one DOES NOT know how those codes of conduct are formed or what their purpose is. The latter situation occurs all too often in the case of those who root their personal morality in religion.

 

[Malak]

Speak for yourself. I don't need religion. I do need faith, but not blind faith. I have faith based on things SEEN, based on evidence that gives me reason to believe. Religion bets everything based on completely unsubstantiated claims.

Does god exist? Well come right down out of the fuckin clouds on a fiery chariot, land in front of me, and talk with me. Prove you exist. Give me REASON to believe.

Until then? Take your narrow-minded-crutch garbage and shove it

You keep confusing religion with God. I agree with everything you stated in your first paragraph, I am exactly the same way. And despite your hostility and even calling me out with implied harassment through PM's, I have continued to be as courteous as possible. In all your posts you have not once, not once responded to the original post. The only thing you have done is come in here with some anti-religion dribble that means absolutely nothing to me. Even when I agree with your thoughts you still continue to attack like I'm an enemy. While Mosh was concerned with someone getting the idea of me trying to convert anyone, the only person that is desperately trying to convert someone is you.

Enjoy your religion Nik. It's all you have.

 

[Jeff7]

You keep confusing religion with God. I agree with everything you stated in your first paragraph, I am exactly the same way. And despite your hostility and even calling me out with implied harassment through PM's, I have continued to be as courteous as possible. In all your posts you have not once, not once responded to the original post. The only thing you have done is come in here with some anti-religion dribble that means absolutely nothing to me. Even when I agree with your thoughts you still continue to attack like I'm an enemy. While Mosh was concerned with someone getting the idea of me trying to convert anyone, the only person that is desperately trying to convert someone is you.

Enjoy your religion Nik. It's all you have.

You seem to propose that gods and religion can be separated.
From what I've seen, gods require a religion be built around them in order to enforce their will, though religions need not embrace deities.

 

[Bignate603]

I find it hilarious that some people get so angry about how other people chose to live their lives. If you don't like it, don't read it and get on with your lives.

 

[CKent]

Just because someone says they are a Jew or a Christian doesn't mean they are seen that way in God's eyes.

Anyone who claims a religion is a follower of that religion. Even if your god existed, a single 2,000 year old book which has been translated and copied thousands of times is not an accurate means of telling what "He" wants from you. Besides, what makes you so infallible that your interpretation is correct and all others are wrong? I'm sick of the religious excusing their religion by saying that anyone controversial "isn't a true follower".

I find it hilarious that some people get so angry about how other people chose to live their lives. If you don't like it, don't read it and get on with your lives

Religion affects the nonreligious. See: 9/11.

 

[Jeff7]

I find it hilarious that some people get so angry about how other people chose to live their lives. If you don't like it, don't read it and get on with your lives.

Angry? Nah. That happens only when they try to overwrite science books with imaginary stories told by dead guys who heard voices in the night.

Other than that, well, it's like an adult who believes Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny exist. Then it's just entertaining.

 

[Nik]

You keep confusing religion with God. I agree with everything you stated in your first paragraph, I am exactly the same way. And despite your hostility and even calling me out with implied harassment through PM's, I have continued to be as courteous as possible. In all your posts you have not once, not once responded to the original post. The only thing you have done is come in here with some anti-religion dribble that means absolutely nothing to me. Even when I agree with your thoughts you still continue to attack like I'm an enemy. While Mosh was concerned with someone getting the idea of me trying to convert anyone, the only person that is desperately trying to convert someone is you.

Enjoy your religion Nik. It's all you have.

My religion? What religion is that?

Science isn't a religion. Neither is logic or reason.

 

[JulesMaximus]

The evidence against this thought is overwhelming. There is no sin committed 2000 years ago that isn't still, daily, being done in this era.

The purpose of that ministry was not to point out that sin, but the lack of good.

I love it when religious folks point out the "lack of good" in the world today. As though that is in any way a valid reason for following the sheep who believe in that nonsense.

2,000 years and religion is still supposed to be this guiding light...the answer as it were, yet we still are plagued by the same problems from thousands of years ago. Religion has solved nothing and it continues to be a source of war and hatred throughout the world...even in this country.