Louisiana atheist vilified for objecting to prayer in public school

[Hayabusa Rider]

A true American hero.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

YEA!!! How dare he think the constitution applies to him.

You know that's interesting. Courts haven't said that the Constitution applies as he wants it, but you think his version ought to apply to everyone else.

Emperor you have no clothes.

 

[theeedude]

You know that's interesting. Courts haven't said that the Constitution applies as he wants it, but you think his version ought to apply to everyone else.

Emperor you have no clothes.

The Supreme Court has ruled that the Constitution does apply as he wants it. You have no brains.

 

[jackstar7]

YEA!!! How dare he think the constitution applies to him.

At a public school no less! The audacity!

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

The Supreme Court has ruled that the Constitution does apply as he wants it. You have no brains.

Really? Show me where the SCOTUS says that there can't be prayers at a graduation. Show us. No "oh but HERE you can't do this".

I'll even type slower for you.

Tell--- us--- what--- school--- the--- supreme--- court--- used--- to--- set--- the--- legal--- precedent--- that--- banned--- prayers--- at--- graduation.

Congrats, you can't and you won't. You'll either take the wise choice and bow out now or prattle on about something else and say it applies. Sadly for you any non example you may cite is backed up by no action whatsoever by anyone with any authority, because guess what? They have no basis in law to stop it.

I bet you'll opt for failure again.

 

[jackstar7]

Really? Show me where the SCOTUS says that there can't be prayers at a graduation. Show us. No "oh but HERE you can't do this".

I'll even type slower for you.

Tell--- us--- what--- school--- the--- supreme--- court--- used--- to--- set--- the--- legal--- precedent--- that--- banned--- prayers--- at--- graduation.

Congrats, you can't and you won't. You'll either take the wise choice and bow out now or prattle on about something else and say it applies. Sadly for you any non example you may cite is backed up by no action whatsoever by anyone with any authority, because guess what? They have no basis in law to stop it.

I bet you'll opt for failure again.

I had to take the wayback machine to post 37:

From another forum I frequent:

"According to the US Supreme Court who in the 1992 case of Lee v. Weisman, 505 U.S. 577 (1992) specifically rejected such an approach. That case was a reaffirmation of the clear principles of such landmark cases as Engel v. Vitale, 370 U.S. 421 (1962) and Abington v. Schempp, 324 U.S. 203 (1963) applied specifically to a high school graduation ceremony.

In the 1992 case the principal of Nathan Bishop Middle School in Providence, Rhode Island, Robert E. Lee, invited a Jewish rabbi to deliver a prayer at the 1989 graduation ceremony, the parents of student Deborah Weisman requested a temporary restraining order seeking to bar the rabbi from speaking. When the Rhode Island district court denied the Weismans' motion, the family did attend the graduation ceremony, and the rabbi did deliver the benediction. After the graduation, the Weismans continued their litigation, and won a victory at the First Circuit Court of Appeals. The school district appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court, arguing that the prayer was nonsectarian and was doubly voluntary, as Deborah was free not to stand for the prayer and because participation in the ceremony itself was not required.

SCOTUS Justice Anthony Kennedy who was expected to water down the school prayer cases delivered the majority opinion strengthening the prohibition on even voluntary school prayer in such circumstances.

Mr. Justice Kennedy noted that even the nonsectarian nature of the prayer was no defense, as the Establishment Clause forbade coerced prayers in public schools, not just those representing a specific religious tradition. Addressing the State's contention that attendance at the graduation exercises was voluntary, Kennedy wrote:

"To say a teenage student has a real choice not to attend her high school graduation is formalistic in the extreme. True, Deborah could elect not to attend commencement without renouncing her diploma; but we shall not allow the case to turn on this point. Everyone knows that, in our society and in our culture, high school graduation is one of life's most significant occasions. A school rule which excuses attendance is beside the point. Attendance may not be required by official decree, yet it is apparent that a student is not free to absent herself from the graduation exercise in any real sense of the term "voluntary," for absence would require forfeiture of those intangible benefits which have motivated the student through youth and all her high school years."


In answering the argument that participation in the prayer was itself voluntary, Mr. Justice Kennedy formulated what is now known as the coercion test:

"As we have observed before, there are heightened concerns with protecting freedom of conscience from subtle coercive pressure in the elementary and secondary public schools. Our decisions in [Engel] and [Abington] recognize, among other things, that prayer exercises in public schools carry a particular risk of indirect coercion. The concern may not be limited to the context of schools, but it is most pronounced there. What to most believers may seem nothing more than a reasonable request that the nonbeliever respect their religious practices, in a school context may appear to the nonbeliever or dissenter to be an attempt to employ the machinery of the State to enforce a religious orthodoxy."


Stave's remarks are disingenuous in the extreme and as is now being reported it was a subterfuge to put a moment of silence in the official program and turning a blind eye to the Lord's Prayer being recited by a student. "

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I had to take the wayback machine to post 37:

You quote well. Let me quote something about that case.

Justice Kennedy, delivered the opinion of the Court. School principals in the public school system of the city of Providence, Rhode Island, are permitted to invite members of the clergy to offer invocation and benediction prayers as part of the formal graduation ceremonies for middle schools and for high schools. The question before us is whether including clerical members who offer prayers as part of the official school graduation ceremony is consistent with the Religion Clauses of the First Amendment, provisions the Fourteenth Amendment makes applicable with full force to the States and their school districts.

What was at issue was whether rabbis or other RELIGIOUS LEADERS can offer prayers NOT IF PRAYERS ARE ALLOWED.

Next?

 

[jackstar7]

So you think that unless something has been specifically ruled upon that there is no way to gauge the matter based on all cases that would certainly inform a decision on this matter?

I'm just confused about how you practice law.

Also, I don't think you can actually dismiss what I was quoting, as the decision elaborates on more than the limited context you quoted.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

So you think that unless something has been specifically ruled upon that there is no way to gauge the matter based on all cases that would certainly inform a decision on this matter?

I'm just confused about how you practice law.

I'm confused how you think someone has the right to dictate how others behave when there is no law against it.

 

[jackstar7]

I'm confused how you think someone has the right to dictate how others behave when there is no law against it.

It's important to distinguish between the other citizens and the representatives of the state. Why aren't you doing that?

The kid wasn't saying "No one can pray! EVAR!" He was saying that the public school is wrong to make time for it at a public function of that state body.

 

[Bird222]

You quote well. Let me quote something about that case.



What was at issue was whether rabbis or other RELIGIOUS LEADERS can offer prayers NOT IF PRAYERS ARE ALLOWED.

Next?

So you really think the SC would be ok with the principal giving a prayer because he is not a "religious leader"? Really?

 

[Mr. Lennon]

It's important to distinguish between the other citizens and the representatives of the state. Why aren't you doing that?

The kid wasn't saying "No one can pray! EVAR!" He was saying that the public school is wrong to make time for it at a public function of that state body.

Hayabusa:

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

It's important to distinguish between the other citizens and the representatives of the state. Why aren't you doing that?

The kid wasn't saying "No one can pray! EVAR!" He was saying that the public school is wrong to make time for it at a public function of that state body.

And that is his opinion not founded in case law. He's entitled to have it. He can challenge it in court. He could even convince the SCOTUS that he's right. On the other hand he might lose.

Until that time it is the right of people to have this just as he has his right to hold his opinion. Would you like me to force all the things I want which haven't been decided by the courts on others because they might go my way? Hardly. You'd be screaming bloody hell and you'd be right.

If you want to believe he's right be my guest. That it's a given that he is? That it's been decided as a point of law? No.

 

[jackstar7]

Nah, you seem like a good egg. I look forward to the indoctrination camps.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Hayabusa:

Your village called.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Nah, you seem like a good egg. I look forward to the indoctrination camps.

I appreciate your vote of confidence, but I'd rather not. If I can persuade you by argument that's one thing. If I have to force you to do something because I can't then I've already lost.

 

[jackstar7]

It's not for me, I'm on board right now. It's everyone else. I'll clearly be working in the camps. As a guard or something. Whatever, I'm sure it'll be cool.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

It's not for me, I'm on board right now. It's everyone else. I'll clearly be working in the camps. As a guard or something. Whatever, I'm sure it'll be cool.

Then I suggest a dance at the Jefferson Memorial! 😀

 

[werepossum]

Draw the legal line from not permitting state institutions from public religious practices to all public prayer being prohibited.


And again, this isn't about being offended. It's about the law. It's on this kid's side. It's not an opinion or a feeling. It's reality.

His real mistake was apparently thinking he could trust those people entrusted with his growth and development into a citizen.

The Constitution says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Note that the First Amendment does not prohibit Congress merely from banning ALL exercise of religion, but instead stops government from prohibiting the free exercise of religion. Note the difference: "free exercise of religion", not "all exercise of religion". Or rather, it did that until activist progressive judges came along and "discovered" that we had spent a couple of centuries interpreting our Constitution all wrong. An equivalent for the remainder of the First Amendment would be if the government prohibited any discussion of government policies or politicians and excused it on the grounds that since government licensed journalists were still free to make non-critical comments, it was not prohibiting free speech.

 

[jackstar7]

Yeah, you lost me.

Do you mind taking another swing at that for me? Dumb it down a couple shades or something?

I'm reading the same words as you, but I apparently read it all "progressive" or some shit. You jumped to a cryptic analogy too quickly for me to grasp your argument in the first place.

 

[pcgeek11]

There is a vast gap between us, and I am not going to sit here and walk you through the hundreds of connecting threads with their thousands of lines of support.

I will answer direct questions. Your failure to follow does not impart an obligation on me to connect you to it.
I cannot lead your inquiry. You must. Curiosity must drive you. I cannot pull you through arenas in which you will have to work just to understand if you do not have anything to drive that work.



Philosophy > all else.

Only in your pea sized mind.

 

[pcgeek11]

So you also believe that the non-violent members of a violent muslim community should not speak out against the violence and should keep their mouth shut and not try to convince them to not commit violence because it's against the community and their beliefs as a whole? It's an identical argument to the one you're making. The boy was who was in the right here. The community was vastly in the wrong. What they did on all levels (not just the threats, their behavior as a whole) was reprehensible, immoral, illegal, and un-American.

This is too stupid to address and has no relation to this situation nor what I stated. The vast majority of Muslims are not violent so that would negate your counter point.

As for the bolded above: I agree the threats are wrong and should not have been made. The rest of their actions they were not immoral, illegal or unamerican.

 

[pcgeek11]

His real mistake was apparently thinking he could trust those people entrusted with his growth and development into a citizen.

Oh yeah the Parents that tossed him out. I think there is much more to the story than we know.

 

[jackstar7]

Oh yeah the Parents that tossed him out. I think there is much more to the story than we know.

The parents, yes, and the school administrators. Someone leaked the info about him... and that person should be in detention.

 

[pcgeek11]

So by your reasoning, as long as whites outnumber n1ggers 99:1 we can continue slavery. As long as Christians outnumber Jews 99:1 we can require them to step up to the ovens. As long as I can get 99:1 people on this forum to agree to it, we can ban you for no reason, or even publish you ip with link to your address and go throw a lynching. After all, if it's what most people want...

Really?

See for a total lack of an answer or even discuss the subject you have to pull this shit out of the thin air:

Race card.
Slavery.
Jew Burning.
Lynching.

These have nothing to do with my reasoning. You are throwing bull shit into the mix.

None of these has anything to do with a prayer. I hope you are just acting like you are stupid.