Religion bashing is the favourite sport among many atheists here in ATOT, second only to spider neffing.
Religion bashing is the favourite sport among many atheists here in ATOT, second only to spider neffing.
The book is a good read, as a work of fiction. The danger is that some people will think that some of the theories in the book are actually true.
Dan Brown's official stance
BUT, I've also heard (and that means I have no weblinks) that Dan Brown has stated that EVERYTHING in the novel is true.
I will say that his other novel, "Digital Fortress," is FULL of factual inaccuracies - stuff so bad that it makes much of the premises of the novel completely implausible. I don't want to give away any spoilers, in case anyone decides to read it, but let's just say that some of the computer tech stuff is just laughable, and is a major part of the plot.
Dan Brown obviously has no qualms about falsifying facts. I have no problem with this as long as he doesn't claim that he's telling the truth.
Dan Brown's official stance
BUT, I've also heard (and that means I have no weblinks) that Dan Brown has stated that EVERYTHING in the novel is true.
I will say that his other novel, "Digital Fortress," is FULL of factual inaccuracies - stuff so bad that it makes much of the premises of the novel completely implausible. I don't want to give away any spoilers, in case anyone decides to read it, but let's just say that some of the computer tech stuff is just laughable, and is a major part of the plot.
Dan Brown obviously has no qualms about falsifying facts. I have no problem with this as long as he doesn't claim that he's telling the truth.
Wow so we quickly went from everyone knows right from wrong to people who had good parents know right from wrong. I guess we can assume you also include mentally ill people? How about people who live in a culture that simply has different values? Is that possible or does that go back to parenting (i.e. they are wrong because their parents told them that x is ok but you, being a phd and world famous theologan know better)?
What the hell does any of the above have to do with me? How is it in your vast wisdom that you came to the conclusion that I am a religious zealot? It's fascinating because in truth the only statements about my own personal religious beliefs you will find anywhere on AT have just the opposite stated.
My point to you and him is that "right vs wrong" is not something innate to humans beyond some (but not many) basically universal morals, and even those are often not understood by many. Humans are not born with the knowledge of what their particular culture deems right or wrong, and even good parenting does not always teach this to some people.
How many people have NOT had a conversation with someone where the other person (or you yourself) have stated something like "people like that should be shot. it's a waste of taxpayer money to send them to trial"? Are they overriding their own intimate knowledge of right from wrong that was encoded in their genes since they were a zygote, or is it possible that the reason why that is wrong is something more complicated than "don't steal from your brother" and which is not in some sequence of amino acids that they are ignoring?
Oh and the other point being that brown clearly must believe that his story is plausible (and thus based somewhat on historical accuracies) otherwise why would he expect anyone to read his book which is based on the notion that these things he proposes are plausible?
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
- 50,422
- 14,337
- 136
The book is a joke. Poorly written and full of historical inaccuracies and blatant lies portrayed as fact and truth.
For example, why is the Holy Grail not in Da Vinci's Last Supper. That's easy... because the Holy Grail is a British legend, and NOT an Italian one. Duh!
That's just the tip of the iceberg as to how false and stupid the book is.
As for the whole atheism in ATOT thing, I have no problem with it. What people choose to believe is their business, and (for myself) I believe in protecting people's freedom to believe as they choose. BUT... religion itself, including the Bible and all the other scriptural texts, is history. So when a person goes beyond simply being atheist to rabidly attacking anything and everything religious, IMO they are attacking history itself (and the scholarship of history as well). I have very little tolerance for such ignorance.
This book IMO is a blatant attack on history.
For example, why is the Holy Grail not in Da Vinci's Last Supper. That's easy... because the Holy Grail is a British legend, and NOT an Italian one. Duh!
That's just the tip of the iceberg as to how false and stupid the book is.
As for the whole atheism in ATOT thing, I have no problem with it. What people choose to believe is their business, and (for myself) I believe in protecting people's freedom to believe as they choose. BUT... religion itself, including the Bible and all the other scriptural texts, is history. So when a person goes beyond simply being atheist to rabidly attacking anything and everything religious, IMO they are attacking history itself (and the scholarship of history as well). I have very little tolerance for such ignorance.
This book IMO is a blatant attack on history.
Man, I wonder what would've happened if great videogames like Xenogears became widely played as this. That uses a lot of religious references and skews into what could be considered "truth."
Their "god" seems much cooler too.
Their "god" seems much cooler too.
I like Xenogears story line a lot but to me it's just a great story. Sure it makes you question religion and government but that doesn't mean that it's bad because it actually encourages you to think. IMO it's a bit different comparing it to a popular book which touted even by the Author to be all factual.
RelaxTheMind
Platinum Member
- Oct 15, 2002
- 2,245
- 0
- 76
now your just branching off in different directions. It seems that no matter which way someone would explain it you would find a negative side to it. To point out the remarks you mentioned...
Mentally ill people up until say the late 1800s were frowned upon by the "church" and thought to either be posessed or the product of sinful parents.
Culture with different values... Looking at cultures as a whole you will come to find that the most important "values" do not differ much at all, how they live around those values is a different story. Most modern cultures with the exception of america and other very diverse areas, still cling to old values which kept generations alive for centuries adapting to their environments. In fact this is more related to sociology than anything else.
Parenting? to answer your question yes. We are not animals but intelligent beings. Intelligence itself means almost nothing without knowledge. Parents are there to just feed and shelter you otherwise there are many ways to do that (matrix anyone?). So this brings us back to everyone that hasnt been locked in a cave their whole life should have a general understanding of whats right or wrong. To function in society you must have that understanding or else u get put in jail or other institutions.
better expanation or can u find more negative areas?
I'm the one veering off? You made a statement that to paraphrase was something like:
I'm an expert on theology. The bible is just a guidebook. Everyone knows what's right and what's wrong anyway.
I questioned only the last part, not even bothering to touch the rest which was qualified for no reason by your alleged education. The fact is not everyone knows what is right and wrong. You say everyone has the same moral values, which is wayyy off. There are some basic values that everyone agrees on, but beyond these there is huge disagreement not only on how to live around values, but what those values themselves are. In some cultures, corporal punishment is accepted as a perfectly ethical and necessary practice. In others it is not. Seems like you would want to make some blanket statement about it... you know something like "well hurting people is wrong, it's how people choose to obey that rule that differs".
The problem is, the further this conversation goes on, the more blanket statements liek that you make without recognizing that it is the use of a blanket statement itself which is the error in your reasoning. It's like one of those RPG worms... you cut it and it turns into two worms, and then you cut those and have four worms. The world is not just right and wrong, we aren't cavemen who can only know that hurt people = bad. Ethics and morality are many orders of magnitude more complex than simply some lame blanket statements from a self-proclaimed expert on theology.
I don't know what any of this has to do with the Da Vinci Code except to say that it is amazing how many people will come out of the woodwork and tell us they know the "real truth" in order to render their opinion on whether the book is good or bad. Myself included.
Wrong. Brown has stated in interviews that his underlying presumptions of many aspects of Catholicism are true, though the overall storyline is fiction. However, it's "ok" to many people to attack the Catholic Church -- just look at Skyclad1uhm1's posts.
ThePresence
Elite Member
- Nov 19, 2001
- 27,727
- 16
- 81
RelaxTheMind
Platinum Member
- Oct 15, 2002
- 2,245
- 0
- 76
ok the thing is u took my "blanket statements" in general, not gonna post a da vinci code on here, just as broad as u everything you stated can be nit-picked at... life really isnt that hard. its all these "what ifs" and extra super complex crap that is added to give people a sense of self.
"Culture with different values... Looking at cultures as a whole you will come to find that the most important "values" do not differ much at all, how they live around those values is a different story." - im still not seeing how u managed to think what you wrote was a rebuttal to my statement.
here ill make it even more simply stated. "if you do something illegal, you will get punished" im pretty sure you can agree thats a pretty universal value correct? ok the later part of my above stament says "...how they live around those values is a different story" ok. how does that not cover most of your super complex world.
It is this, people like you who add all of these "what ifs" and get all defensive when someone makes a point. I never made any projection that I was an expert. I was simply stating (in general) that a guy robbing a bank knows quite well what he is doing, as well as the man down the street cheating on his wife. Yes... that itself can be taken many ways.
You simply twisted my "point", which was not just a mere opinion, into a whole village riot mess. If you take a step out of the box and realize that all you new age self righteous hippies can talk a whole lot but never get to any real standpoint. If you take a long look at what your response was its actually backing what i said. You were just nit picking.
Debating is fun... Im stating comments and your just badgering me. I hope that this makes you feel smarter.
well in that case. its a book. you have the right to read it or not and to beleive it or not, plain and simple.
I agree, its based on shady foundations.
Even beyond that, Dan Brown is a cheap writier. Read some of his other books, its almost like he uses a generator for the plots, they are _ALL_ the same. Its pathetic.
ThePresence
Elite Member
- Nov 19, 2001
- 27,727
- 16
- 81
Perhaps because that is yet another vague and elusive statement. What constitutes the "most important values"? I would say that many of the things that vary from culture to culture are in fact important values. Like the right to marry multiple people. Or freedom of speech. You must think freedom of speech is either a simply answered question, which I can assure you it is not, or that it does not vary greatly among various cultures, which I can assure you it doe.
No, that is not a universal value. You don't necessarily punish people for doing something illegal. Many laws are unjust and do not merit punishment. This in fact is the basis of civil disobedience.
Furthermore, I myself do not believe that punishment is the correct response for many, many legal violations. Some should be ignored entirely - such as safely jaywalking; still others should be based on the context of the situation. This is why our prisons are meant to be rehabilitating. If you do something illegal, your behavior should be corrected in most cases, assuming the law is just and ought to be enforced in that exact scenario.
What point were you making? Your point appeared to be that you know more about the bible than everyone else here, that the bible is just a guide, and people already know what is right and wrong and don't need the bible except for guidance in things that are NOT the most important values.
That seems like a pretty pointless point there, given that you now admit that people do NOT know what is right and wrong inherently, and in fact what you meant to say is that "in the context of the society in which they were raised, with parenting that teaches values that society agrees with except those that are wrong, assuming no mental condition, people know right from wrong as society defines it" which is a completely meaningless thing to say in the first place.
You could have taken out first the qualifying statement and the conclusion and just said, "the bible is a guide, that is my opinion". That would have been a lot more valid than what you said.
Your point was not mere opinion? Really? You have facts to support:
A) That you know more than most people about these exact matters (which are subjective in nature)
B) That the bible is a guide and not meant to be taken literally in any sense (a standpoint which other well educated scholars disagree with)
And let's just ignore:
C) People know right from wrong, because it appears now you mean that people know things that they are told unless they are deficient in some manner.
My standpoint is not elusive, it is fairly obvious:
A) You do not know more than most people here about these matters, because though you may have studied them, their meaning eludes you (much like Jade Fox in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon)
B) Whether or not the bible is a guide, the values described in it are NOT innate and common among all cultures, not even the "important ones" and therefore it holds value as a book that describes how one ought to behave, which is not necessarily in agreement with the viewpoint of society or the people who read it
C) That people do not inherently know right from wrong except a few very basic morals which are not necessarily the most important ones, and in fact often times the most important ones may not have any easy answer.
As you can see my standpoint is in fact that I disagree with everything you wrote.
And as it applies to the Da Vinci Code, I believe that dan brown in fact DID believe that most of his background information is correct, which DOES conflict with not only historians but most religions involved, and in fact IS an offense against those religions, which are not in fact based on books that are mere guidelines, but in fact those books themselves are in some fashion at the very center of the religion itself.
Is that clear enough?
Bestselling 'Secrets of the Code'
Author Dan Burstein Comments on the Case of 'The Cardinal vs. The Da
Vinci Code'
NEW YORK--(BUSINESS WIRE)--March 21, 2005--Controversy continues
to swirl around The Da Vinci Code, even after two full years on the
bestseller list, more than 25 million copies sold worldwide, and the
creation of a multibillion dollar industry that includes everything
from Da Vinci Code tours of Paris to the upcoming Da Vinci Code movie
starring Tom Hanks. In the latest episode, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone,
a powerful figure in the Vatican on matters of Church doctrine,
denounced the novel last week, calling on Catholics not to buy or read
the book, which he termed, "rotten food" and a "sack of lies."
According to news accounts, he specifically appealed to Catholic
bookstores -- including, presumably, the bookshop in the hospital
where Pope John Paul II has recently been treated, as well as others
bookshops right inside Vatican City and around the world -- to stop
selling The Da Vinci Code.
Dan Burstein and Arne de Keijzer are editors of two bestselling
books devoted to explaining fact, fiction, speculation, and
controversy in the works of novelist Dan Brown. Burstein and de
Keijzer's books, Secrets of the Code (about The Da Vinci Code) and
Secrets of Angels & Demons (about Dan Brown's "prequel" to Da Vinci
Code), each bring together a wide range of experts to comment on the
Dan Brown novels. Both books are published by Squibnocket Partners LLC
in association with CDS Books.
In a statement issued today, Dan Burstein said, "I respect
Cardinal Bertone's opinion and his right to that opinion. It is
unfortunate, however, that he has seen a need to call for a ban on The
Da Vinci Code, which is clearly a work of pop culture fiction, not a
serious treatise on theology. As with most official critiques of books
and movies, Cardinal Bertone's recent comments will probably have the
opposite of their intended effects, making even more people inside and
outside the Catholic Church interested in experiencing what he has now
suggested should be considered a forbidden fruit.
"It is particularly ironic that Dan Brown's novels frequently call
attention to the suppression of ideas in Church history: The burning
and banning of works of "heretics;" the quashing of alternative
scriptures that have come to be known as the Gnostic Gospels; the fact
that the historical Mary Magdalene was mis-characterized for almost
1400 years by the Church as a prostitute; the epochal Church battle to
censor the great scientist Galileo. All of these incidents in history
are integral to the plots of the Dan Brown novels. Cardinal Bertone
has set out to criticize what he sees as, in his opinion, the
dangerous and erroneous content of The Da Vinci Code. However, by
calling for a ban of the book, the Cardinal inadvertently lends
credence to Dan Brown's thesis that powerful people in the Church
don't want the faithful to hear certain ideas.
"For the better part of five centuries, from the Inquisition into
the twentieth century, the Church maintained a semi-official list of
books that were to be banned and shunned. Banned books over the years
have reportedly included works by Flaubert, Balzac, Voltaire,
Stendahl, Swift, Locke, and Sartre. This practice was apparently
discontinued in the 1960s -- around the same time the Vatican
acknowledged that Mary Magdalene should not be confused with the
repentant prostitute mentioned in certain Gospel passages.
"This process of correcting past mistakes in Church history --
highlighted by recent Vatican efforts to right the wrongs committed in
the case of Galileo or with regard to the Jews in history -- is a
welcome trend in modern Church thinking. Sadly, Cardinal Bertone seems
to be suggesting a return to a time when Church leaders believed they
could win intellectual and philosophical debates by simply banning or
suppressing certain ideas.
"Over the last two years, many Catholic scholars and theologians
have welcomed the discussion of the Da Vinci Code as an opportunity to
offer traditional Catholic viewpoints on controversial modern
questions. My experience with leading Catholic thinkers, from
professors at religious institutions to members of Opus Dei, is that
they have generally embraced the debate over this wildly popular
novel, and found a positive opportunity to criticize what they find to
be in error in The Da Vinci Code, while also obtaining a forum to
express their own views of religious history and theology.
"Interestingly, at least one emerging leader of the Church,
Monsignor Jose Maria Pinheiro, recently nominated to be the Bishop of
Sao Paulo, one of the largest Catholic communities in the world, has
taken an explicitly different view about the Da Vinci Code from that
of Cardinal Bertone. He has recommended "prudence," encouraged readers
to distinguish "fact from fiction" in the Da Vinci Code, and suggested
that it is not necessary to prohibit reading of this novel. That seems
to me a much more reasonable position for a Church leader to take.
"It is surprising to many that a Church leader like Cardinal
Bertone would suddenly be speaking out against this novel more than
two years after its publication, and so long after so many Catholic
readers have bought it, read it, and engaged in the discussion of it.
This new swirl of controversy may have something to do with next
year's upcoming movie version of The Da Vinci Code, which will
inevitably be seen by many more people than even the millions who read
the book.
"The recent statements probably also have something to do with
Pope John Paul II's health and the widening discussion of Church
directions on policy and theology in the future. There is a strict
prohibition on discussion of papal succession within the Vatican, but
the reality is that we have entered a period in Vatican politics that
is somewhat analogous to the Iowa caucuses in American presidential
contests. (In our new book, Secrets of Angels & Demons, we present the
views of many different Vatican-watching experts on how the papal
succession process actually works, and who the most likely current
candidates are).
"In short, I expect we will hear much more about this controversy
in the next few weeks, but don't assume it has all that much to do
with the actual novel. Nor is the call for a ban likely to put a
damper on The Da Vinci Code's sales, which will continue setting world
records, while feeding the intellectual hunger of many readers to
learn more about the ideas discussed in the book."
Secrets of the Code and Secrets of Angels & Demons are
international bestsellers published in the U.S. by CDS Books in
association with Squibnocket Partners LLC. Secrets of the Code spent
more than twenty weeks on the New York Times bestseller list in 2004
and has been translated into more than 20 languages. It has been on
bestseller lists in Germany, South Africa, Canada, France, and Poland.
Secrets of Angels & Demons made its debut on The New York Times
bestseller list recently at #25. Together, these two titles have over
a million copies in print worldwide. More than 75 world class experts
with widely varying viewpoints--historians, theologians, art experts,
scientists, philosophers, linguists, occultists, medievalists, Bible
text experts, and other specialists--have contributed articles,
interviews, and book chapters to the two "Secrets" books. Several new
titles in the "Secrets" series are planned for 2005-6.
Author Dan Burstein Comments on the Case of 'The Cardinal vs. The Da
Vinci Code'
NEW YORK--(BUSINESS WIRE)--March 21, 2005--Controversy continues
to swirl around The Da Vinci Code, even after two full years on the
bestseller list, more than 25 million copies sold worldwide, and the
creation of a multibillion dollar industry that includes everything
from Da Vinci Code tours of Paris to the upcoming Da Vinci Code movie
starring Tom Hanks. In the latest episode, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone,
a powerful figure in the Vatican on matters of Church doctrine,
denounced the novel last week, calling on Catholics not to buy or read
the book, which he termed, "rotten food" and a "sack of lies."
According to news accounts, he specifically appealed to Catholic
bookstores -- including, presumably, the bookshop in the hospital
where Pope John Paul II has recently been treated, as well as others
bookshops right inside Vatican City and around the world -- to stop
selling The Da Vinci Code.
Dan Burstein and Arne de Keijzer are editors of two bestselling
books devoted to explaining fact, fiction, speculation, and
controversy in the works of novelist Dan Brown. Burstein and de
Keijzer's books, Secrets of the Code (about The Da Vinci Code) and
Secrets of Angels & Demons (about Dan Brown's "prequel" to Da Vinci
Code), each bring together a wide range of experts to comment on the
Dan Brown novels. Both books are published by Squibnocket Partners LLC
in association with CDS Books.
In a statement issued today, Dan Burstein said, "I respect
Cardinal Bertone's opinion and his right to that opinion. It is
unfortunate, however, that he has seen a need to call for a ban on The
Da Vinci Code, which is clearly a work of pop culture fiction, not a
serious treatise on theology. As with most official critiques of books
and movies, Cardinal Bertone's recent comments will probably have the
opposite of their intended effects, making even more people inside and
outside the Catholic Church interested in experiencing what he has now
suggested should be considered a forbidden fruit.
"It is particularly ironic that Dan Brown's novels frequently call
attention to the suppression of ideas in Church history: The burning
and banning of works of "heretics;" the quashing of alternative
scriptures that have come to be known as the Gnostic Gospels; the fact
that the historical Mary Magdalene was mis-characterized for almost
1400 years by the Church as a prostitute; the epochal Church battle to
censor the great scientist Galileo. All of these incidents in history
are integral to the plots of the Dan Brown novels. Cardinal Bertone
has set out to criticize what he sees as, in his opinion, the
dangerous and erroneous content of The Da Vinci Code. However, by
calling for a ban of the book, the Cardinal inadvertently lends
credence to Dan Brown's thesis that powerful people in the Church
don't want the faithful to hear certain ideas.
"For the better part of five centuries, from the Inquisition into
the twentieth century, the Church maintained a semi-official list of
books that were to be banned and shunned. Banned books over the years
have reportedly included works by Flaubert, Balzac, Voltaire,
Stendahl, Swift, Locke, and Sartre. This practice was apparently
discontinued in the 1960s -- around the same time the Vatican
acknowledged that Mary Magdalene should not be confused with the
repentant prostitute mentioned in certain Gospel passages.
"This process of correcting past mistakes in Church history --
highlighted by recent Vatican efforts to right the wrongs committed in
the case of Galileo or with regard to the Jews in history -- is a
welcome trend in modern Church thinking. Sadly, Cardinal Bertone seems
to be suggesting a return to a time when Church leaders believed they
could win intellectual and philosophical debates by simply banning or
suppressing certain ideas.
"Over the last two years, many Catholic scholars and theologians
have welcomed the discussion of the Da Vinci Code as an opportunity to
offer traditional Catholic viewpoints on controversial modern
questions. My experience with leading Catholic thinkers, from
professors at religious institutions to members of Opus Dei, is that
they have generally embraced the debate over this wildly popular
novel, and found a positive opportunity to criticize what they find to
be in error in The Da Vinci Code, while also obtaining a forum to
express their own views of religious history and theology.
"Interestingly, at least one emerging leader of the Church,
Monsignor Jose Maria Pinheiro, recently nominated to be the Bishop of
Sao Paulo, one of the largest Catholic communities in the world, has
taken an explicitly different view about the Da Vinci Code from that
of Cardinal Bertone. He has recommended "prudence," encouraged readers
to distinguish "fact from fiction" in the Da Vinci Code, and suggested
that it is not necessary to prohibit reading of this novel. That seems
to me a much more reasonable position for a Church leader to take.
"It is surprising to many that a Church leader like Cardinal
Bertone would suddenly be speaking out against this novel more than
two years after its publication, and so long after so many Catholic
readers have bought it, read it, and engaged in the discussion of it.
This new swirl of controversy may have something to do with next
year's upcoming movie version of The Da Vinci Code, which will
inevitably be seen by many more people than even the millions who read
the book.
"The recent statements probably also have something to do with
Pope John Paul II's health and the widening discussion of Church
directions on policy and theology in the future. There is a strict
prohibition on discussion of papal succession within the Vatican, but
the reality is that we have entered a period in Vatican politics that
is somewhat analogous to the Iowa caucuses in American presidential
contests. (In our new book, Secrets of Angels & Demons, we present the
views of many different Vatican-watching experts on how the papal
succession process actually works, and who the most likely current
candidates are).
"In short, I expect we will hear much more about this controversy
in the next few weeks, but don't assume it has all that much to do
with the actual novel. Nor is the call for a ban likely to put a
damper on The Da Vinci Code's sales, which will continue setting world
records, while feeding the intellectual hunger of many readers to
learn more about the ideas discussed in the book."
Secrets of the Code and Secrets of Angels & Demons are
international bestsellers published in the U.S. by CDS Books in
association with Squibnocket Partners LLC. Secrets of the Code spent
more than twenty weeks on the New York Times bestseller list in 2004
and has been translated into more than 20 languages. It has been on
bestseller lists in Germany, South Africa, Canada, France, and Poland.
Secrets of Angels & Demons made its debut on The New York Times
bestseller list recently at #25. Together, these two titles have over
a million copies in print worldwide. More than 75 world class experts
with widely varying viewpoints--historians, theologians, art experts,
scientists, philosophers, linguists, occultists, medievalists, Bible
text experts, and other specialists--have contributed articles,
interviews, and book chapters to the two "Secrets" books. Several new
titles in the "Secrets" series are planned for 2005-6.
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