Looks like Maduro's regime may (or may not) be collapsing in Venezuela

[brycejones]

Venezuela has good elections

You are not entitled to your own facts.

 

[herm0016]

the economy has recently tanked because the US cut venezuela out of the international banking system.

you are saying the 25% drop in oil output of pdvsa ( who is the majority shareholder in Citgo) in 2017 has nothing to do with the countries problems? its the only thing they have worth selling to anyone else. their production dropped 500 million bopd to less than 1.5 billion. they used to produce, which is half of what it was in 2015. The only reason this did not happen earlier is because the price of oil was high.

 

[Blackjack200]

There is no way you actually believe this.

You are not entitled to your own facts.

Criticism of the election in 2018 is a simple propaganda tool. No evidence of widespread irregularities was ever presented.

We were unanimous in concluding that the elections were conducted fairly, that the election conditions were not biased, that genuine irregularities were exceptionally few and of a very minor nature. There was no vote buying because there is no way that a vote CAN be bought. The procedure itself precludes any possibility of anyone knowing how a voter cast her or his vote; and it is impossible – as we verified – for an individual to vote more than once or for anyone to vote on behalf of someone else.

https://www.globalresearch.ca/inter...ezuelas-election-pen-letter-to-the-eu/5670916

 

[fskimospy]

Criticism of the election in 2018 is a simple propaganda tool. No evidence of widespread irregularities was ever presented.

https://www.globalresearch.ca/inter...ezuelas-election-pen-letter-to-the-eu/5670916

You are basically quoting the left equivalent of Infowars, lol. Are you an anti-vaxxer too?

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Globalresearch#Conspiracy_theories

As I have already linked to you in the past multiple independent groups have determined that Maduro's election was not legitimate. If it would be helpful I can link them again? I mean who are you going to believe, basically the entire world or the guy who specifically and illegally packed his supporters into the branch of government tasked with overseeing his election? lol.

Why is it so hard for you to admit that Venezuela's problems primarily come from its corrupt and incompetent government?

 

[brycejones]

Criticism of the election in 2018 is a simple propaganda tool. No evidence of widespread irregularities was ever presented.



https://www.globalresearch.ca/inter...ezuelas-election-pen-letter-to-the-eu/5670916

That pretty much ignores all the bullshit leading up to the actual vote. When the start of the process is rigged the entire result is not legitimate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election

 

[brycejones]

Why is it so hard for you to admit that Venezuela's problems primarily come from its corrupt and incompetent government?

This is what I don't get. For the sake of Venezuela the current government needs to go. However we also need to make sure we hold whoever follows to be accountable as well for implementing a real democratic process as a replacement, if they don't then we need to oppose that government with the same vigor. Its long past time the US try to lead by really pushing for the ideals enshrined in our constitution.

 

[Jaskalas]

Someone explain to me the reason behind you blaming the United States. Weren't the people of Venezuela starving and facing death squads before the US sanctions? You cite Aug 2017 as a turning point, but...

1. That date is too late to be of importance.
   • Dec, 2016: No Food, No Medicine, No Respite: A Starving Boy’s Death in Venezuela
   • Apr, 2017: "The Maduro Diet": A Photo Essay from Venezuela
2. We banned US companies from buying their debt, we did not block oil on that date.

Without a proper order of events, haters of US policy appear to have the facts confused.

 

[Blackjack200]

You are basically quoting the left equivalent of Infowars, lol. Are you an anti-vaxxer too?

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Globalresearch#Conspiracy_theories

As I have already linked to you in the past multiple independent groups have determined that Maduro's election was not legitimate. If it would be helpful I can link them again? I mean who are you going to believe, basically the entire world or the guy who specifically and illegally packed his supporters into the branch of government tasked with overseeing his election? lol.

I was quoting international election observers. Here’s another article from a well respected site. But I don’t suspect counterpunch will be good enough either.

https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/05/30/venezuela-defeats-us-in-election/

When you refer to “basically the entire world” you’re talking about roughly 50 American aligned governments, along with a handful of Latin American governments that were pressured into supporting the US. You’re ignoring the roughly 140 countries that recognize the legitimacy of the elections and Maduro’s government.

Why is it so hard for you to admit that Venezuela's problems primarily come from its corrupt and incompetent government?

You are either foolishly or maliciously trying to untangle the behavior of the Maduro government from the interference of the US, which has been trying to undermine and depose the Bolivarians for almost 20 years. Corruption and incompetence are features of every government, there’s no evidence that Maduro’s government is an exceptional case of either.

Why is it so hard to for you to admit that the international crisis is nothing but a cynical play for Venezuela’s oil?

That pretty much ignores all the bullshit leading up to the actual vote. When the start of the process is rigged the entire result is not legitimate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election

I’ve read that page, there’s no convincing evidence there.

 

[fskimospy]

I was quoting international election observers. Here’s another article from a well respected site. But I don’t suspect counterpunch will be good enough either.

https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/05/30/venezuela-defeats-us-in-election/

I have no particular problem with counterpunch but it's clear from you quoting globalresearch.ca that you're simply looking for anything that validates your views instead of attempting to accurately understand the issue. If you were genuinely interested in that you would have immediately realized you were quoting a batshit insane Infowars style website.

Regardless, nothing in that article even bothers to address the actions of Maduro's government that made the election illegitimate. I suspect this is because they have no argument against them.

When you refer to “basically the entire world” you’re talking about roughly 50 American aligned governments, along with a handful of Latin American governments that were pressured into supporting the US. You’re ignoring the roughly 140 countries that recognize the legitimacy of the elections and Maduro’s government.

Nope, I'm talking about basically all of Venezuela's neighbors, international election monitoring organizations said it was unfair as well. I linked this to you and presumably you read it. Why are you trying to pretend otherwise?

You are either foolishly or maliciously trying to untangle the behavior of the Maduro government from the interference of the US, which has been trying to undermine and depose the Bolivarians for almost 20 years. Corruption and incompetence are features of every government, there’s no evidence that Maduro’s government is an exceptional case of either.

Why is it so hard to for you to admit that the international crisis is nothing but a cynical play for Venezuela’s oil?

I’ve read that page, there’s no convincing evidence there.

Yes, putting a loyalist national guard general with no experience running an oil company in charge of the nation's most important economic asset is totally not a case of exceptional corruption or incompetence.

lolwut.

 

[brycejones]

I was quoting international election observers. Here’s another article from a well respected site. But I don’t suspect counterpunch will be good enough either.

https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/05/30/venezuela-defeats-us-in-election/

When you refer to “basically the entire world” you’re talking about roughly 50 American aligned governments, along with a handful of Latin American governments that were pressured into supporting the US. You’re ignoring the roughly 140 countries that recognize the legitimacy of the elections and Maduro’s government.



You are either foolishly or maliciously trying to untangle the behavior of the Maduro government from the interference of the US, which has been trying to undermine and depose the Bolivarians for almost 20 years. Corruption and incompetence are features of every government, there’s no evidence that Maduro’s government is an exceptional case of either.

Why is it so hard to for you to admit that the international crisis is nothing but a cynical play for Venezuela’s oil?



I’ve read that page, there’s no convincing evidence there.

Nice hand waving. If you aren’t willing to acknowledge the facts there really isn’t any further discussion to be had with you on this subject.

 

[fskimospy]

Nice hand waving. If you aren’t willing to acknowledge the facts there really isn’t anymore discussion to be had with you on this subject.

He has previously said that criticism from other countries is inherently illegitimate because they are not socialist. We are not dealing with someone here who is willing to acknowledge the facts.

 

[Blackjack200]

I have no particular problem with counterpunch but it's clear from you quoting globalresearch.ca that you're simply looking for anything that validates your views instead of attempting to accurately understand the issue. If you were genuinely interested in that you would have immediately realized you were quoting a batshit insane Infowars style website.

Here's a longer article by one of the authors of the letter. Are you going to offer evidence of the irregularities, or are you going to post wikipedia pages and make vague references to things you already posted?

https://alborada.net/venezuela-elections-chavez-maduro-media/

Regardless, nothing in that article even bothers to address the actions of Maduro's government that made the election illegitimate. I suspect this is because they have no argument against them.

What actions?

Nope, I'm talking about basically all of Venezuela's neighbors, international election monitoring organizations said it was unfair as well. I linked this to you and presumably you read it. Why are you trying to pretend otherwise?

Neighbors like the hard right governments in Columbia and Brazil?

Yes, putting a loyalist national guard general with no experience running an oil company in charge of the nation's most important economic asset is totally not a case of exceptional corruption or incompetence.

lolwut.

Government appoints a loyal supporter to important post. Film at 11.

 

[Blackjack200]

He has previously said that criticism from other countries is inherently illegitimate because they are not socialist. We are not dealing with someone here who is willing to acknowledge the facts.

You seem confused by the difference between facts and criticism.

 

[Blackjack200]

Nice hand waving. If you aren’t willing to acknowledge the facts there really isn’t any further discussion to be had with you on this subject.

What facts? You posted a Wikipedia article. Lol.

 

[fskimospy]

Here's a longer article by one of the authors of the letter. Are you going to offer evidence of the irregularities, or are you going to post wikipedia pages and make vague references to things you already posted?

https://alborada.net/venezuela-elections-chavez-maduro-media/

I’m unaware of anyone arguing for irregularities in the COUNTING of votes, so this is a straw man. Maduro had no need to manipulate the counts as he had already rigged the election.

Similarly, I doubt Kim Jong Un feels any need to manipulate the vote counts and so they are probably accurate too! That’s just as meaningless because he, like Maduro, has already rigged the result.

What actions?

We have literally already discussed this and you decided not to believe any of it based on nothing. Feel free to revisit my previous posts.

Neighbors like the hard right governments in Columbia and Brazil?

Neighbors like basically every single one of their neighbors.

Government appoints a loyal supporter to important post. Film at 11.

Venezuelan government destroys its most valuable resource through corruption and incompetence. Then useful idiots try to find a way to shift the blame.

 

[hal2kilo]

https://alborada.net/venezuela-elections-chavez-maduro-media/

I’m unaware of anyone arguing for irregularities in the COUNTING of votes, so this is a straw man. Maduro had no need to manipulate the counts as he had already rigged the election.

Similarly, I doubt Kim Jong Un feels any need to manipulate the vote counts and so they are probably accurate too! That’s just as meaningless because he, like Maduro, has already rigged the result.



We have literally already discussed this and you decided not to believe any of it based on nothing. Feel free to revisit my previous posts.



Neighbors like basically every single one of their neighbors.



Venezuelan government destroys its most valuable resource through corruption and incompetence. Then useful idiots try to find a way to shift the blame.[/QUOTE]

He's suffering with the craig2xx syndrome.
Edit: what's with the html interpreter. Quote hanging out there.

 

[ElFenix]

you are saying the 25% drop in oil output of pdvsa ( who is the majority shareholder in Citgo) in 2017 has nothing to do with the countries problems? its the only thing they have worth selling to anyone else. their production dropped 500 million bopd to less than 1.5 billion. they used to produce, which is half of what it was in 2015. The only reason this did not happen earlier is because the price of oil was high.

corrupt dictator + dutch disease = not good
corrupt dictator + dutch disease + falling oil prices = worse
corrupt dictator + dutch disease + falling oil prices + US economic warfare = worser
corrupt dictator + dutch disease + falling oil prices + US economic warfare + mike pence telling guaido to declare himself president because mike pence can't resist latin men = worserer
corrupt dictator + dutch disease + falling oil prices + US economic warfare + mike pence telling guaido to declare himself president because mike pence can't resist latin men + guaido's supporters torching aid trucks while the NYT breathlessly claims maduro did it = worsererer

 

[Blackjack200]

I’m unaware of anyone arguing for irregularities in the COUNTING of votes, so this is a straw man. Maduro had no need to manipulate the counts as he had already rigged the election.

Similarly, I doubt Kim Jong Un feels any need to manipulate the vote counts and so they are probably accurate too! That’s just as meaningless because he, like Maduro, has already rigged the result.

LOL ‘I’m not disputing that the people actually voted for Maduro’ is a strange flex.

We have literally already discussed this and you decided not to believe any of it based on nothing. Feel free to revisit my previous posts.

This is your go-to whenever I try to get specifics out of you.

Neighbors like basically every single one of their neighbors.

Basically every single one of their neighbors that has a fascist or hard right government or was pressured by the US.

Venezuelan government destroys its most valuable resource through corruption and incompetence. Then useful idiots try to find a way to shift the blame.

The newly appointed minister calls his leadership team to conference. “Guys, stop making the oil.”

 

[fskimospy]

LOL ‘I’m not disputing that the people actually voted for Maduro’ is a strange flex.

Huh? Why would that be? People also actually vote for Kim Jong-Un and Putin. Doesn't change the fact that they rigged the election. I mean... duh.

This is your go-to whenever I try to get specifics out of you.

I LITERALLY ALREADY GAVE YOU THE SPECIFICS AND YOU DISMISSED THEM. lol

Basically every single one of their neighbors that has a fascist or hard right government or was pressured by the US.

Oh okay.

The newly appointed minister calls his leadership team to conference. “Guys, stop making the oil.”

No, he's just incompetent because he was hired based on his loyalty. Incompetent people do bad jobs.

 

[Atreus21]

Huh? Why would that be? People also actually vote for Kim Jong-Un and Putin. Doesn't change the fact that they rigged the election. I mean... duh.



I LITERALLY ALREADY GAVE YOU THE SPECIFICS AND YOU DISMISSED THEM. lol



Oh okay.



No, he's just incompetent because he was hired based on his loyalty. Incompetent people do bad jobs.

Your time. You're wasting it mate.

 

[brycejones]

I’m unaware of anyone arguing for irregularities in the COUNTING of votes, so this is a straw man. Maduro had no need to manipulate the counts as he had already rigged the election.

Similarly, I doubt Kim Jong Un feels any need to manipulate the vote counts and so they are probably accurate too! That’s just as meaningless because he, like Maduro, has already rigged the result.

Its amazing how much easier it is to win when you control all the media outlets, control who your opponents are, control the electoral process, etc, etc, etc.

I'm stupefied that @Blackjack200 still somehow considers this a free and fair election. The countries who recognized the election as legitimate are a who's who of countries are certainly not democratic. Valenzuela isn't even really socialist at this point its a state run kleptocracy.

 

[Blackjack200]

Huh? Why would that be? People also actually vote for Kim Jong-Un and Putin. Doesn't change the fact that they rigged the election. I mean... duh.

They do?

https://nationalpost.com/news/world...raud-behind-putins-crushing-victory-in-russia

I LITERALLY ALREADY GAVE YOU THE SPECIFICS AND YOU DISMISSED THEM. lol

Glad to see your caps lock works, lol. No, you post Wikipedia pages and then insist that you’ve addressed my questions already. Apart from whoever might be right or wrong in the argument, your conduct in this thread has been disgraceful. You’ve offered fact-free criticisms of Maduro’s government while refusing to address the central purpose of the parallel criticisms leveled by Washington - providing a pretext for intervention.

Your sychophantic behavior is analogous to someone claiming to oppose the Iraq war in 2002 but insisting that Iraq had WMD and was not cooperating with investigators.

Oh okay.

Yeah. Okay. Feel free to provide a counter example or, more likely, insist that you’ve already addressed the point and invite me to revisit your old posts in this thread.

No, he's just incompetent because he was hired based on his loyalty. Incompetent people do bad jobs.

‘Hired based on loyalty”, unprecedented in world governments. Something that certainly doesn’t happen in the Good governments.

 

[Blackjack200]

Its amazing how much easier it is to win when you control all the media outlets, control who your opponents are, control the electoral process, etc, etc, etc.

You know that most media in Venezuela is hostile to Maduro, right?

I'm stupefied that @Blackjack200 still somehow considers this a free and fair election. The countries who recognized the election as legitimate are a who's who of countries are certainly not democratic. Valenzuela isn't even really socialist at this point its a state run kleptocracy.

140 countries consider recognize the results and consider Maduro to be the democratically elected president.

 

[Blackjack200]

Your time. You're wasting it mate.

Ha! Damn fskimo, you really have the support of the shittiest posters on this forum. Congrats!

 

[fskimospy]

They do?

https://nationalpost.com/news/world...raud-behind-putins-crushing-victory-in-russia

It was an analogy. Regardless, Putin engages in many of the same election rigging behaviors that Maduro does.

Glad to see your caps lock works, lol. No, you post Wikipedia pages and then insist that you’ve addressed my questions already. Apart from whoever might be right or wrong in the argument, your conduct in this thread has been disgraceful. You’ve offered fact-free criticisms of Maduro’s government while refusing to address the central purpose of the parallel criticisms leveled by Washington - providing a pretext for intervention.

This is false. I have explicitly backed up my statements about Maduro's coup in the past and you ignored them, saying that you refused to admit that the election was rigged because if it was that would justify US intervention. You didn't even care what was true, all you cared about was your preferred outcome and you came straight out and admitted it!

Because of that I feel no need to repeat the same facts that you already dismissed out of hand in the past. I do dislike you lying about what I have said though and I hope you're adult enough to admit it and apologize.

Your sychophantic behavior is analogous to someone claiming to oppose the Iraq war in 2002 but insisting that Iraq had WMD and was not cooperating with investigators.

I have no idea what this means. I am simply stating the facts that Maduro's election was not legitimate. Countries around the world agree with me. Independent electoral integrity organizations agree with me. North Korea agrees with you.

You

Yeah. Okay. Feel free to provide a counter example or, more likely, insist that you’ve already addressed the point and invite me to revisit your old posts in this thread.

I feel no need to provide a counterpoint because your entire argument is subjective and/or based on no evidence.

‘Hired based on loyalty”, unprecedented in world governments. Something that certainly doesn’t happen in the Good governments.

Irrelevant.