Looks like G71 will have those 32 pipes after all.

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: munky
Again, I'll believe it when I see it. Of course if I was Nv, then yeah I'd better put out a 32pipe gtx to have any hopes of competing with the r580

Wow! And they say I sound like a fanboy.

It took twice as much memory and a higher clock for the XT to keep pace with the GT.

I don't think that is going to help ATI this time.

They have been behind since the 9800 so they have a lot of catching up to do.

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: munky
Again, I'll believe it when I see it. Of course if I was Nv, then yeah I'd better put out a 32pipe gtx to have any hopes of competing with the r580

Wow! And they say I sound like a fanboy.

It took twice as much memory and a higher clock for the XT to keep pace with the GT.

I don't think that is going to help ATI this time.

They have been behind since the 9800 so they have a lot of catching up to do.

Well, after this post you also sound like a noob who has no idea what you're talking about. It took higher clocks because the r520 was designed with high clocks in mind - they didnt make on a 90nm process by accident and put only 16 "pipes" on it by a flipping a coin- it was meant to clock high. The gtx has more pipes, and that also means it cant clock as high even if Nv tried - it you think the gtx can ever reach 700mhz on air then pass me some of that good stuff your smoking.

Looking at the latest xbitlabs benches here you can see that the xt is very close the the performance levels of the 512gtx in all the cases except AOE3, and leaves the 256gtx in the dust. Yeah, I'm looking at the 1600 res AA/AF benches, dont tell me the gtx is a lot better without AA because no one gives a sh!t how well a $400+ card does without AA or AF. And you think a higher clocked 24 pipe gtx is gonna compete well with a card that has 3x the shader power of the r520, and even more if you count the increased clocks? I sure hope the g71 is a 32 pipe card for competition's sake, because Nv is about to get owned 5800u style if all they do is release a higher clocked 24 pipe gtx.

 

[Elfear]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Wow! And they say I sound like a fanboy.

It took twice as much memory and a higher clock for the XT to keep pace with the GT.

I don't think that is going to help ATI this time.

They have been behind since the 9800 so they have a lot of catching up to do.

Wreckage you never cease to amaze me. Most of the time I just skip over your posts because you slant so obviously to one side but I couldn't pass it up this time.

Hard to tell from your post but if you're implying the 9800 series was behind the 5800/5900 series maybe you should go look at some benchmarks or ask the owners of both series. The 9800pro was one of the most popular video cards ever for a reason.

Did you ever own any of the X800 series or the 6800 series? I have and the X800XT PE was faster than the 6800GT@Ultra speeds I had let alone the X850XT PE. That thing was a monster compared to my Nvidia card as far as raw performance.

When you see benchmarks of the new cards do you just close your eyes and go to your happy spot until you get to the AOEIII, Black and White 2, or Chronicles of Riddick pages? Sure ATI was late to market. No denying that, but that doesn't equate to their hardware being inferior. On the contrary.

I've used quite a few cards from both companies in the last couple years and to say that ATI has been behind since the 9800 is just fallacy. It's ok, you really can admit that ATI has excellent hardware without your video card refusing to work any longer. Even if you absolutely adore Nvidia, which is fairly apparent from your posts, you can still admit the competition has good stuff too.

 

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: munky

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: munky
Again, I'll believe it when I see it. Of course if I was Nv, then yeah I'd better put out a 32pipe gtx to have any hopes of competing with the r580

Wow! And they say I sound like a fanboy.

It took twice as much memory and a higher clock for the XT to keep pace with the GT.

I don't think that is going to help ATI this time.

They have been behind since the 9800 so they have a lot of catching up to do.

Well, after this post you also sound like a noob who has no idea what you're talking about. It took higher clocks because the r520 was designed with high clocks in mind - they didnt make on a 90nm process by accident and put only 16 "pipes" on it by a flipping a coin- it was meant to clock high. The gtx has more pipes, and that also means it cant clock as high even if Nv tried - it you think the gtx can ever reach 700mhz on air then pass me some of that good stuff your smoking.

Looking at the latest xbitlabs benches here you can see that the xt is very close the the performance levels of the 512gtx in all the cases except AOE3, and leaves the 256gtx in the dust. Yeah, I'm looking at the 1600 res AA/AF benches, dont tell me the gtx is a lot better without AA because no one gives a sh!t how well a $400+ card does without AA or AF. And you think a higher clocked 24 pipe gtx is gonna compete well with a card that has 3x the shader power of the r520, and even more if you count the increased clocks? I sure hope the g71 is a 32 pipe card for competition's sake, because Nv is about to get owned 5800u style if all they do is release a higher clocked 24 pipe gtx.

QFT. I got a laugh about how Wreckage thinks ATi has been behind since the 9800 pro. Maybe in sales they were but in performance the X850 and X800XT PE (which I had) both topped the 6800 U except in some OGL games. If I buy one of these new cards then it will come down to which company offers a lower clocked variant of their high end parts in the $400-$450 range - somehow I think nVidia will have this covered alot better than ATi. There's no way in hell I'm willing to spend $700 on a refresh like it's been theorized.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: munky
Well, after this post you also sound like a noob who has no idea what you're talking about. It took higher clocks because the r520 was designed with high clocks in mind - they didnt make on a 90nm process by accident and put only 16 "pipes" on it by a flipping a coin- it was meant to clock high. The gtx has more pipes, and that also means it cant clock as high even if Nv tried - it you think the gtx can ever reach 700mhz on air then pass me some of that good stuff your smoking

O RLY?

Show me a single slot cooled ATI card that competes with the GTX? Why would the ATI cards run so hot if they were designed to run at a higher clock? Why does the $285 GT beat the $550 XT in several games? Maybe you should go hang out in the AMD vs. Intel threads if you think a higher clock = better. Clearly it does not.

 

[TecHNooB]

Pixel pipeline is such a magical set of words. It'll take me a while before I start thinking in shaders. Although, I do think ATI's shader power will even out the playing field.

Oh, and nice article MUNKY.

 

[CP5670]

When is this thing supposed to come out? Since I need a card for a second computer I'm assembling anyway, I think I might ditch SLI and use EVGA's step-up program to upgrade the other card to one of these.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
QFT. I got a laugh about how Wreckage thinks ATi has been behind since the 9800 pro. Maybe in sales they were but in performance the X850 and X800XT PE (which I had) both topped the 6800 U except in some OGL games. If I buy one of these new cards then it will come down to which company offers a lower clocked variant of their high end parts in the $400-$450 range - somehow I think nVidia will have this covered alot better than ATi. There's no way in hell I'm willing to spend $700 on a refresh like it's been theorized.

I was saying that the 9800 was a good card. However, (after that) it's not just about performance. The 6xxx series was years ahead in features like SM3.0, HDR, SLI & Purevideo. You can make a beat up old car go as fast as a new corvette, but if they both cost the same which would you choose?

 

[Remedy]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
QFT. I got a laugh about how Wreckage thinks ATi has been behind since the 9800 pro. Maybe in sales they were but in performance the X850 and X800XT PE (which I had) both topped the 6800 U except in some OGL games. If I buy one of these new cards then it will come down to which company offers a lower clocked variant of their high end parts in the $400-$450 range - somehow I think nVidia will have this covered alot better than ATi. There's no way in hell I'm willing to spend $700 on a refresh like it's been theorized.

I was saying that the 9800 was a good card. However, (after that) it's not just about performance. The 6xxx series was years ahead in features like SM3.0, HDR, SLI & Purevideo. You can make a beat up old car go as fast as a new corvette, but if they both cost the same which would you choose?

How did you get the Purevideo to work?

 

[TecHNooB]

I realized ATI's newer drivers for the X1000 series gave a serious boost. But after looking over the article munky put up, the X1800XT looks extremely good. Without FSAA/Aniso, games like FEAR and BF2 are more than playable with the number of frames they get, and with FSAA/Aniso, the X1800XT is practically dead even with the 7800GTX 512. Go ATI? =)

 

[allies]

Originally posted by: munky

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: munky
Again, I'll believe it when I see it. Of course if I was Nv, then yeah I'd better put out a 32pipe gtx to have any hopes of competing with the r580

Wow! And they say I sound like a fanboy.

It took twice as much memory and a higher clock for the XT to keep pace with the GT.

I don't think that is going to help ATI this time.

They have been behind since the 9800 so they have a lot of catching up to do.

Well, after this post you also sound like a noob who has no idea what you're talking about. It took higher clocks because the r520 was designed with high clocks in mind - they didnt make on a 90nm process by accident and put only 16 "pipes" on it by a flipping a coin- it was meant to clock high. The gtx has more pipes, and that also means it cant clock as high even if Nv tried - it you think the gtx can ever reach 700mhz on air then pass me some of that good stuff your smoking.

If the G70 was built on a 90nm process I have no doubts it would hit similar clockspeeds of the R520 (case in point of the rumors of the G71 [90 nm variant of G70] running at 750 MHz).

 

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
QFT. I got a laugh about how Wreckage thinks ATi has been behind since the 9800 pro. Maybe in sales they were but in performance the X850 and X800XT PE (which I had) both topped the 6800 U except in some OGL games. If I buy one of these new cards then it will come down to which company offers a lower clocked variant of their high end parts in the $400-$450 range - somehow I think nVidia will have this covered alot better than ATi. There's no way in hell I'm willing to spend $700 on a refresh like it's been theorized.

I was saying that the 9800 was a good card. However, (after that) it's not just about performance. The 6xxx series was years ahead in features like SM3.0, HDR, SLI & Purevideo. You can make a beat up old car go as fast as a new corvette, but if they both cost the same which would you choose?

How is ATi behind now? They have similar advanced features to their nVidia counterparts and some that are more advanced: AAA vs TRSSAA (AAA is a better performing solution with very similar IQ), HQ non-angle dependent AF vs. nVidia shimmer AF, SM 3.0, Crossfire vs. SLI (nVidia's SLI is more elegant but performance gains are roughly the same).

Seems to me they are roughly equivalent now in features and in performance the XT falls inbetween the GTX and 512 GTX except it costs a lot less than the 512 GTX Press Edition and is found in much larger quantities. Anyway the G70/R520 fight is about to be over in January - lets see who brings out their next refresh in mass quantity and at a reasonable price.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Wreckage
Why would the ATI cards run so hot if they were designed to run at a higher clock?

given everything else held equal, because power draw of a microprocessor is directly related to clock speed, something with a higher clock will run hotter.

 

[sxr7171]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Originally posted by: munky

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: munky
Again, I'll believe it when I see it. Of course if I was Nv, then yeah I'd better put out a 32pipe gtx to have any hopes of competing with the r580

Wow! And they say I sound like a fanboy.

It took twice as much memory and a higher clock for the XT to keep pace with the GT.

I don't think that is going to help ATI this time.

They have been behind since the 9800 so they have a lot of catching up to do.

Well, after this post you also sound like a noob who has no idea what you're talking about. It took higher clocks because the r520 was designed with high clocks in mind - they didnt make on a 90nm process by accident and put only 16 "pipes" on it by a flipping a coin- it was meant to clock high. The gtx has more pipes, and that also means it cant clock as high even if Nv tried - it you think the gtx can ever reach 700mhz on air then pass me some of that good stuff your smoking.

Looking at the latest xbitlabs benches here you can see that the xt is very close the the performance levels of the 512gtx in all the cases except AOE3, and leaves the 256gtx in the dust. Yeah, I'm looking at the 1600 res AA/AF benches, dont tell me the gtx is a lot better without AA because no one gives a sh!t how well a $400+ card does without AA or AF. And you think a higher clocked 24 pipe gtx is gonna compete well with a card that has 3x the shader power of the r520, and even more if you count the increased clocks? I sure hope the g71 is a 32 pipe card for competition's sake, because Nv is about to get owned 5800u style if all they do is release a higher clocked 24 pipe gtx.

QFT. I got a laugh about how Wreckage thinks ATi has been behind since the 9800 pro. Maybe in sales they were but in performance the X850 and X800XT PE (which I had) both topped the 6800 U except in some OGL games. If I buy one of these new cards then it will come down to which company offers a lower clocked variant of their high end parts in the $400-$450 range - somehow I think nVidia will have this covered alot better than ATi. There's no way in hell I'm willing to spend $700 on a refresh like it's been theorized.

Performance at a good price? Yeah I agree, Nvidia has that covered.

 

[TecHNooB]

The anticipation builds once again!

 

[John Reynolds]

Originally posted by: coldpower27Nvnews is actually a pretty nice place, Beyond3D however is known for it's bastion of ATI Fanboys.

Every board is going to have a preponderence of fans that tilt the overall feel or air of the forums to the left or right, but that sentence is a wonderful bifurcation of reality. You're actually defending a fansite that has become almost paranoid in how it treats forum and staff members as more objective than Beyond3D? Hilarious!

 

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: John Reynolds

Originally posted by: coldpower27Nvnews is actually a pretty nice place, Beyond3D however is known for it's bastion of ATI Fanboys.

Every board is going to have a preponderence of fans that tilt the overall feel or air of the forums to the left or right, but that sentence is a wonderful bifurcation of reality. You're actually defending a fansite that has become almost paranoid in how it treats forum and staff members as more objective than Beyond3D? Hilarious!

lmao he thinks nVNews is a nice place..bahahaa...

 

[nRollo]

Nothing wrong with nVnews if you want nVidia related news.

They won't let you flame nVidia there, just like they won't let you flame ATI on Rage3d.

I think they even state it up front they're an nVidia oriented fansite where nVidia flames will not be tolerated.

 

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: Rollo
Nothing wrong with nVnews if you want nVidia related news.

They won't let you flame nVidia there, just like they won't let you flame ATI on Rage3d.

I think they even state it up front they're an nVidia oriented fansite where nVidia flames will not be tolerated.

It's not even flames - they won't tolerate any kind of discussion if it makes nVidia look less than perfect. Plus I dislike them for other reasons, particularly their website owner's attitude. At R3D they have just as many nV fans as ATi and even the admins there post anti-ATi news so you can't tell me they are nearly as biased as nV News.

 

[otispunkmeyer]

Originally posted by: munky
Again, I'll believe it when I see it. Of course if I was Nv, then yeah I'd better put out a 32pipe gtx to have any hopes of competing with the r580, but it's not as easy as tacking on 8 more pipes and calling it the 7900u. Nv has never released a refresh card with more pipes than the origial. Also, funny how they menion we should fear NV's TWIMTBP developer influence, because I can think of at least 2 such games from last year (well, it was this year actually, but I'm thinking it's 2006 already...) where NV was loosing in benches.

i thoiught that was standard practice lol....NV do ****** in their TWIWMTBP games, and ATI do ****** in their equivalent branded games. it just plain makes sense

 

[otispunkmeyer]

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster
Just a quick summary

G71 (7900ultra)
90 nm low k
32 pixel pipelines
32 pixel shaders
32 TMUs (texture mapping units)
16 ROPs
10 Vertex shaders?
256bit GDDR3 (ext.)
380~ transistors?

core clock 750mhz
memory clock 1900mhz.


R580 (X1900XT)
90 nm lowk
16 pixel pipelines
48 pixel shaders
16 TMUs
10 VS
256bit GDDR3 (512bit int. ring bus)
350~ transistors? (R520 has 321~ transistors)

core clock 695mhz
memory clock 1550mhz

AS you know this is the specs for the X1600XT (R530)
90 nm lowk
4 Pipelines
12 Pixel Shaders
4 Texture Mapping Units
4 ROP's
5 Vertex Shaders
128Bit Ext. Memory Interface, 256Bit Int. Ring Bus

So if you compare this with the R580, it will be R580 = R530 x 4

i honestly fail at these things

so nvidia is "going" to have 32 pixel piplines, i presume then they have 1 pixel shader and 1 TMU each = 32 pixel shaders and 32 TMUs which to me seems nice an balanced (but im uneducated so im very probably wrong) and it makes sense....ie 1 fits into 1

then they have 16 ROP's which i know means despite being able to produce 32 pixels in one go, they can only draw 16 of them. but this isnt a problem since "apparently" that situation rarely arises

Ati is "going" to have what i see as crazy. 16 pixel pipelines....but then 48 pixel shaders? so they put 3 pixel shaders in the pixel pipeline? (3 fits into 1?) why doesnt that make it 48 pixel pipelines?

then they got 16 TMU's and 16ROPS.

can some one explain.

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: otispunkmeyer

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster
Just a quick summary

G71 (7900ultra)
90 nm low k
32 pixel pipelines
32 pixel shaders
32 TMUs (texture mapping units)
16 ROPs
10 Vertex shaders?
256bit GDDR3 (ext.)
380~ transistors?

core clock 750mhz
memory clock 1900mhz.


R580 (X1900XT)
90 nm lowk
16 pixel pipelines
48 pixel shaders
16 TMUs
10 VS
256bit GDDR3 (512bit int. ring bus)
350~ transistors? (R520 has 321~ transistors)

core clock 695mhz
memory clock 1550mhz

AS you know this is the specs for the X1600XT (R530)
90 nm lowk
4 Pipelines
12 Pixel Shaders
4 Texture Mapping Units
4 ROP's
5 Vertex Shaders
128Bit Ext. Memory Interface, 256Bit Int. Ring Bus

So if you compare this with the R580, it will be R580 = R530 x 4

i honestly fail at these things

so nvidia is "going" to have 32 pixel piplines, i presume then they have 1 pixel shader and 1 TMU each = 32 pixel shaders and 32 TMUs which to me seems nice an balanced (but im uneducated so im very probably wrong) and it makes sense....ie 1 fits into 1

then they have 16 ROP's which i know means despite being able to produce 32 pixels in one go, they can only draw 16 of them. but this isnt a problem since "apparently" that situation rarely arises

Ati is "going" to have what i see as crazy. 16 pixel pipelines....but then 48 pixel shaders? so they put 3 pixel shaders in the pixel pipeline? (3 fits into 1?) why doesnt that make it 48 pixel pipelines?

then they got 16 TMU's and 16ROPS.

can some one explain.

Because the whole term "pipeline" is misleading and not relevant. The new Ati cards like the r520, rv530, and r580 have a separate shader unit array and a texture unit array. Even though the r520 has 16 "pipes", what it really has is 16 pixel shaders and 16 TMU's where each shader is not tied to any particular TMU, and they can be scheduled independently between the 4 quads. In the r580 there are 48 pixel shaders and 16 TMU's, which further dictates that the TMU's and shaders can be working independently, so you can either call it 48 shader pipes or 16 texture pipes, but the term "pipe" kinda lost it's meaning on these cards.

edit: if anyone really wants to know the gory details of the r520, then read up on this article - http://www.beyond3d.com/reviews/ati/r520/

 

[BroadbandGamer]

So I guess I should cancel my 512 GTX order at dell.com? My order says it's going to ship on or before 1/4/06. I'm getting it for $665 shipped. When I ordered it, Dell was selling them for $700. They've since bumped the price up to $741. I had a $100 American Express Rewards Certificate which I used.

Anyway, maybe I should get the card anyway and try and sell it on ebay. What do you guys think?

 

[Munky]

A few weeks ago the 512gtx's were selling out for $1000 on ebay. If the ebay'ers dont know about the r580 coming soon, then you could easily make a few hundred buck by selling the gtx, although I personally would just cancel and wait for the new card.

 

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: BroadbandGamer
So I guess I should cancel my 512 GTX order at dell.com? My order says it's going to ship on or before 1/4/06. I'm getting it for $665 shipped. When I ordered it, Dell was selling them for $700. They've since bumped the price up to $741. I had a $100 American Express Rewards Certificate which I used.

Anyway, maybe I should get the card anyway and try and sell it on ebay. What do you guys think?

Cancel it - much better cards coming out in January.