LongHorn = Scarry stuff !

[N11]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

Originally posted by: N11

I find it ironic that Americans are generally very fond of speaking about freedom and justice, etc, but in the end, these things always seem to begin in the US for some reason, and the public doesn't seem to care that the very freedom and justice they praise is taken away, bit by bit.

What differentiates Americans from countries like China is even though our sense of capitalistic freedom is less and less laissez faire driven each decade, in the end consumers can still speak with their wallets.

Microsoft's decisions may impact the future of technology for people that prefer their products, but in the long run I don't see any of their decisions making any sort of noteworthy impact on freedom in this country -- part of the reason you don't see linux using americans such as myself forming rallies in both washingtons to protest the leaked changes.

Optional hardware DRM in 2004, mandatory in 2006... Its a possibility, and one we should watch out for.

Where can I read more about this?

 

[spamsk8r]

Originally posted by: NorthenLove


I have no problems with what you are saying except that they are trying to wipe out the x86 architecture and make it a MS only piece of hardware. Fine they want a Nintendo type OS okay that's there problem. They should not thought try to freaking control the development of the the x86 architecture in order to screw over everyone else that doesn't want to run a OS that will encompass everything from the James Orwell's book 1984. We don't need no stinking self appointed Ministry of Computing telling us what they think we want or how they think the PC should develop to "better suit or needs". MS should just shut-up and listen to it's users for once.

It's George Orwell, not James. And I agree wholeheartedly with n0c, in that even if this software doesn't have much immediate effect, the idea and the basis upon which it is founded violates the basic freedoms of American citizens as set forth over 200 years ago. Big media corporations use their lobbying power to take away the rights that we take for granted, so that they can make more money to pad their already overstuffed pocketbooks. Its the classic class struggle, where the rich take from the poor so that the rich become richer and the poor become poorer, and thus, more powerful.

 

[GonzoDaGr8]

If anybody even knows yet, but how or will DRM/Palladium inflicted hardware affect *NIX users?

 

[Intelman07]

Why are you people anti-Microsoft? I mean it is ok to not like something but so many of you I just don't understand. I like them and especially their games. Are you people afraid of successful things like terroist hate america cause america is successful? (this is just a question lol sounds mean but that wasn't my intension) I am looking forward to Longhorn!

 

[MGMorden]

Originally posted by: Intelman07
Why are you people anti-Microsoft? I mean it is ok to not like something but so many of you I just don't understand. I like them and especially their games. Are you people afraid of successful things like terroist hate america cause america is successful? (this is just a question lol sounds mean but that wasn't my intension) I am looking forward to Longhorn!

They don't like it because MS is attempting to control the way they use their stuff. Just like the Taliban tried to control their population (I hate resorting to "terroists are bad don't be one" arguments but if you do I'll do it too). The way we currently use music and movies works fine. If I want to take an mp3 off of my Windows machine and put in on my Linux machine then it works now. Why shouldn't it? It's data. It's my data. I can now do with it what I want. Explain to me how anybody modifying my system so that it doesn't work is "helping" me or anyone else? It's helping big corporations. As it is now if I buy a CD I can listen to it in my car or on any of my computers or what not. Once I buy it I have the right to listen to it however I want. This technology combined with the DMCA will only make sure that you purchase the media for EVERY system you want to listen to it on (imagine having to buy a song 3 times. once for you house and twice for each of your two cars. this could happen in the near future). Remember this stuff isn't just about stopping the pirates of today. Things that you do now that are blatantly not piracy could be considered so at the mere whim of the person in control if this stuff comes to pass. Luckily we'll always have the Linux source (at least in it's current state). We can make our own DRM-free OS, and I can guarantee this some company would rise to fill the need for non-palladium hardware to run it on (even if it was a niche market, it would definately be viable).

 

[Nothinman]

Why are you people anti-Microsoft?

Because MS is anti-consumer.

I like them and especially their games

Most of MS' games aren't done inside MS, just like their hardware isn't produced by them.

Are you people afraid of successful things like terroist hate america cause america is successful?

I'm afraid of MS controlling how I use my computer and with the way things are going they'll likely have that power in the not-so-distant future, unless of course people realize how bad MS is for them.

 

[Intelman07]

I see I agree totally just wanted to know what you guys thought but I still like their operating systems. If only microsoft just sold the bare operating system no extras (maybe except internet explorer) or they could at least have a option of what microsoft programs are installed along with the OS.

 

[Nothinman]

I still like their operating systems.

You've never used another OS before have you? And sitting at a Mac for 10 minutes doesn't count.

I used to be a big MS fan, loved Windows and even went so far as to teach myself VB. I was using IE when it was in the 3.x beta stages and remember loving their "Mail and News" program that grew into Outlook Express. But I started playing with Linux, it was interesting because it was so different (we're talking RH 5.x days) and even though FVWM sucked ass I still thought it was cool to run it. Eventually I grew more and more comfortable with Linux and the way things work so well in it. It seems complicated at first, but really it's very simple. There's a lot to learn but once you learn one thing part of it will translate into other things making them easier and easier to figure out and remember.

Windows is a terrible system, everything is over complicated and all the important things are hidden deep in the registry or completely kept from you. MS doesn't like to document things, even when they tried to make SMB a standard they kept huge amounts of it's protocol details hidden, all they did was rename it to CIFS and hope noone would notice. And they won't play nice with anyone, hell their WindowsUpdate website only works with IE, wtf is the point of using a website if it only supports 1 browser on 1 platform?

Even now that Mac OS is based on mach and the FreeBSD userspace it's miles ahead of Windows. You can get a PPC box running OS X and get a full unix workstation and still run MS Office, too bad the boxes cost so damn much.

Now all I have on nearly all of my PCs is Linux, my laptop runs Win2K but we'll see how long that lasts.

If only microsoft just sold the bare operating system no extras (maybe except internet explorer) or they could at least have a option of what microsoft programs are installed along with the OS.

Even IE should be removable. I should be able to install Mozilla and check a box that says 'replace IE mshtml.dll handling with mozhtml.dll' or something similar and have no trace of IE on my system any more.

 

[GonzoDaGr8]

everything is over complicated and all the important things are hidden deep in the registry or completely kept from you.

Ahhh...The Registry. What a worthless PITA.

Even IE should be removable

Doesn't SP1 allow the removal of IE? Or does that just allow you to to set other progs as default?

 

[Sunner]

Nope, there's a function called "Program and access defaults" or something like that, but it's pretty much useless.

Anyway, Linux grew onto me pretty much the way Nothinman described, I was a happy camper running DOS, then I got my state of the art P90 with 16(!) MB of RAM and an unfathomable 850 MB HD.
Then came Win95, man, it was sooo cool, of course it never compared to my Amiga 600, but nothing does, not even Linux 🙂

But then I worked on a web design firm for a few weeks during a summer, and got in touch with Slackware through some nerd there, I didn't quite understand what the big deal was, nor how it could possibly be better than Win95, but being the curious type, I tried it out, was Slackware 3.0 I think, damn tricky, but it was fun.
Never really got anywhere with it, but the firm bought a copy of RedHat 4.2 for me, so I tried that, which got me going, and eventually I got KDE 1.2(I think) running, with the GIMP, etc, damn so friggin cool.

And these days Im an even happier camper with Gentoo, and OpenBSD 🙂

And I don't like Windows anymore, pretty much also for the same reasons Nothinman mentioned, it's hopeless to get things done on it, it leaves you with too little control over the system, granted if you have no clue about what you're doing this can greatly help in reducing the risk for severe mistakes, but on the other hand if you know what you're doing this will severely limit you.

 

[Fuzznuts]

Originally posted by: BingBongWongFooey
Dear MS fanboys: your comments only show how blind you are.

Yours show how arrogant your are 😀

now to put this in perspective is it not a case of tools for a job? as was stated MS is trying to grab every computer hating ££ out there and turn it around in their favor. i say great good luck to them. Now if my "only" choice was to use MS "tools" then yes i may get my knickers in a tis about this but this is not the case linux is free and readily avaliable and better at what i need it for than MS i use linux for web services everyday stuff i would never trust to MS, but i use XP for my general work and gmaing because linux is crap at it. surely we should be happy that we can choose what we use. if there was no choices or alternatives then i would get the gip but there is. if you dont like it dont use it, its really that simple.

🙂

I remember when XP was annouced all this sort of thing flared up then and it seems was totally unfounded and has come to nothing. i learnt my lesson that time round i will wait and see rather flame before its a reality. 🙂

 

[NorthenLove]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

Originally posted by: Nothinman

I'm most likely doing the same things as n0c, staying away from Windows (right now it's only running on 1 out of ~6 machines, my laptop, all the rest are Linux) and staying away from hardware that supports DRM or whatever they call it on the marketing side. I'll be getting a nice SMP Hammer system since the server/high-end boxes probably won't support DRM, I'd get a Sun Blade if they weren't so expensive for so little. I've already got 2 Sun UltraSparc and 2 Alpha systems, I like not being tied to any one architecture.

0 of 6.5 here. The only Windows machine I use is a win2k desktop at work. 1 PPC (maybe 2 in a couple of months 😀), 1 sparc4m, and 1 ultra sparc. I have a mobo and processor for an alpha, but Ive been lazy 😛

I forsee uniprocessor and smp hammers in my future, and maybe a sunblade 2k if OpenBSD gets the docs they need for US3. Some of the features sound interresting, but Hammer also supports some of them. *shrug*

This is freaking cool !!! Apparently the folks at YDL and Terra Soft Solutions, Inc are going to put out a 100% Linux compatible/compliant and customize-able PPC platform/board. Whether it ends up being a good arch or not is still up in the air but it would be cool choice if all PC vendors give in to MS and add that Palladium/DRM crap to every PC component out there.

http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=2280

http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=2280

 

[Nothinman]

I remember when XP was annouced all this sort of thing flared up then and it seems was totally unfounded and has come to nothing

Actually a lot of it was true. Yes WPA was exaggerated, but only because MS wouldn't release details on it, but the other things like WMP's cripple'd MP3 encoding were true even though they can be worked around. How long before all the rumors are true and they can't be worked around?

This is freaking cool !!! Apparently the folks at YDL and Terra Soft Solutions, Inc are going to put out a 100% Linux compatible/compliant and customize-able PPC platform/board. Whether it ends up being a good arch or not is still up in the air but it would be cool choice if all PC vendors give in to MS and add that Palladium/DRM crap to every PC component out there.

Cool, I've been looking for another arch to add to my network without spending an arm and a leg on a new Mac =)

 

[ProviaFan]

As consumers have proven with the DivX (the player, not the codec) vs. DVD, they will choose a more open system over a less open one, if the latter imposes enough restrictions to be unduely a PITA to use. I expect that, if DRM / TCPA / Palladium is implemented the way MS and the RIAA want it, Apple may be getting a fresh wave of new customers. And now that they have the excellent OS X, I don't feel sorry for someone buying a Mac anymore; in fact, I'm going to get one for myself sometime soon (as soon as I can afford it, that is). 🙂

Now, on to why Palladium is A Bad Thing (TM)... As has probably already been covered in the Palladium FAQ that n0c posted, the hardware side of Palladium includes a "Fritz Chip" (more on that later). This chip, upon booting of the computer, inspects the BIOS to make sure it hasn't been modified (incidentally, that will probably disallow all BIOS mods, such as putting your own picture in place of the energystar logo). Once the BIOS has been certified to be "ok," it gets control of the system. After doing what things all good BIOSes are required to do, it will have to inspect the OS to make sure that it is "ok." Presumably, it will download updated lists of "ok" and blacklisted (for example, a pirated copy of Windows XP 2004) OSes while the computer is running; how this will affect those who don't have an internet connection I do not know. (BTW, does anyone remember the scandal some time ago about the BIOS that had some spyware in it that would bypass ad blockers and download stuff independent of the OS?) Anyway, the main problem with this is that it will not allow any custom Linux kernels (or perhaps all Linux kernels) to run if Palladium is enabled. Not that that's a problem in itself, because at least for now this thing should be able to be disabled.

However, the US legislators, in concert with the RIAA, have brought upon us yet another piece of wonderfully mis-written and woefully broad legislation in the form of the CBDTPA (Consumer Broadband and Digital Television Promotion Act, which, ironically, is anything but). This legislation, proposed by senator Ernest "Fritz" Hollings, would make the hardware side of Palladium a legal requirement in all "digital devices." If it passes, there will be no more freely customizable free software for us. :disgust: :| 🙁

 

[Fuzznuts]

How long before all the rumors are true and they can't be worked around?

Probably quite a while anything that relies heavily on software can and will be modified to work how we the end user want it wether that be open source or simply hacking whats there already.

All of XPs so called anti piracy features have been worked around. as will the next generation of measures. thankfully there are people out there smarter than me that can do this kind of thing 🙂

 

[Nothinman]

Probably quite a while anything that relies heavily on software can and will be modified to work how we the end user want it wether that be open source or simply hacking whats there already.

Even taking into consideration mandatory DRM hardware support, i.e. the Fritz Chip?

All of XPs so called anti piracy features have been worked around. as will the next generation of measures. thankfully there are people out there smarter than me that can do this kind of thing

If there were more people who would hand out the cash they owe MS for using their software we wouldn't need most of these features and the people spending all that time working around them could concentrate on more productive things.

 

[JellyBaby]

WPA was exaggerated, but only because MS wouldn't release details on it,

WPA was also more stringent until public outcry against it forced MS to lighten up its restrictions. Consumers do have some say even with MS.

 

[Nothinman]

WPA was also more stringent until public outcry against it forced MS to lighten up its restrictions. Consumers do have some say even with MS.

All that does is delay the process, MS lets up for now to look like they're not so bad but eventually it'll all be implemented. Corporate entities like the MPAA, RIAA, etc also have a say and probably a bigger one over all.

The new DRM addins of Longhorn will be touted as features that allow you to buy music online and the like but to use them you'll have to run DRM enabled hardware with a DRM enabled OS. And people will just live with it, like all the people using WMA and WMV formats when better, less restrictive formats exist. I'm sure you heard the story about the guy that formatted his XP box and lost the 'right' to listen to all of his WMA files because he didn't turn off the protection when he encoded them, eventually it'll get to the point where the 'protection' isn't an option.

 

[Intelman07]

I never said IE shouldn't be removeable!