LongHorn = Scarry stuff !

[JellyBaby]

Ripped from slashdot:

Three Rings for the Microsoft-Developers under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-VPs in their halls of stone,
Nine for IIS System Administrators doomed to die,
One for Steve Ballmer on his dark throne
In the land of Richmond where shadows lie.
One Application to rule them all, One Palladium to authenticate them,
On Application to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Richmond where Shadows lie.

 

[Barnaby W. Füi]

Originally posted by: ultimatebob
Blah, Blah, Blah. We've heard all of this BS before when Windows "Whistler" AKA XP was in development. Stories about how you wouldn't be able to play your MP3's anymore, or how you wouldn't be able to use any drivers that were not "blessed" by Microsoft. Rumors on the operating automatically expiring after a few years, and how product activation would make you repurchase your operating system every time you did a hardware upgrade. Most of it was FUD, and almost none of the rumors came became a reality by the time the OS shipped.

Once again, history is repeating itself.

haha yeah, most of it. wake up man, you're being screwed, and the severity of the screwing will only increase.

 

[Bovinicus]

I think the OS looks alright. I didn't even see anything about Palladium or any of that other nonsense in the article. That would be terrible if certified PCs were necessary, but I saw no information in that article pointing to that fact. The newer filing system looks pretty nifty.

 

[mjquilly]

Originally posted by: Bovinicus
...I didn't even see anything about Palladium or any of that other nonsense in the article.

It's there. You are talking about the first article mentioned, right?

 

[pltguy]

have no problems here at all

 

[LikeLinus]

NorthenLove - You're taking some silly little 4 paragraph article and reading WAY Too much into stuff. Everything you say is "connect the dots, translate this, translate that". Man you are WAY too paranoid.


""Win2K is the only decent windows OS in my book.""

""Then you deserve to be a MS user. ""

Stupid calling someone else Stupid. Gotta love the irony.

Currently there are leaked Beta's of the Longhorn OS. NONE of these so called "features" are implimented into the Beta's. I realize some things will change between Beta and RTM, but I doubt all of this will take place. Take this article and all your crap with a grain of salt. You're all hyped up about nothing and running around spreading crap. This was all done when Windows XP came out and will be done when Longhorn comes out.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: LikeLinus
NorthenLove - You're taking some silly little 4 paragraph article and reading WAY Too much into stuff. Everything you say is "connect the dots, translate this, translate that". Man you are WAY too paranoid.


""Win2K is the only decent windows OS in my book.""

""Then you deserve to be a MS user. ""

Stupid calling someone else Stupid. Gotta love the irony.

Currently there are leaked Beta's of the Longhorn OS. NONE of these so called "features" are implimented into the Beta's. I realize some things will change between Beta and RTM, but I doubt all of this will take place. Take this article and all your crap with a grain of salt. You're all hyped up about nothing and running around spreading crap. This was all done when Windows XP came out and will be done when Longhorn comes out.

I thought longhorn was in alpha... But anyways, are you saying that longhorn will be a step in the right direction for consumers? Im sorry, but XP's WPA was a step back for consumers. Can you guarentee that Microsoft's Palladium initiative will not be present in this OS?

 

[LikeLinus]

<<Im sorry, but XP's WPA was a step back for consumers. >> Um who uses WPA anyway? And how exactly does it affect people who are not pirating music? Seems the only people who complain are the same people who pirate?

I never said Palladium initiative will not be present in this OS. We really don't know exactly what will be or wont be by 2004. My point is sitting around dogging on MS is just lame. We know nothing, but people sit here and sling mud and make accusations based on nothing substantial.

Doesn't Palladium have to be backed up by hardware? AMD has already said their CPU's won't follow Palladium suit, you will have the ability to turn it on or off. This is all like the Intel "Serial Number" that people threw a big fit about, but in the end it was an OPTION. There are alternatives if you don't like Palladium....hence Linux. But is the bashing necessary?

As far as it being a good thing for consumers...i really see no problem. I'm not a thief, so how's this going to hurt or affect me?

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: LikeLinus
<<Im sorry, but XP's WPA was a step back for consumers. >> Um who uses WPA anyway? And how exactly does it affect people who are not pirating music? Seems the only people who complain are the same people who pirate?

WPA being the anti-piracy part of XP. The thing you have to keep activating when changing hardware. I dont pirate software or much music, but this crap bothers me. Its an extra step in an installation that is already too long.

I never said Palladium initiative will not be present in this OS. We really don't know exactly what will be or wont be by 2004.

Ok, so this is all speculation. You see Microsoft as an entity working in the best interrests of the consumers. I see it as a corporation trying to get as much money and control as it possibly can.

My point is sitting around dogging on MS is just lame. We know nothing, but people sit here and sling mud and make accusations based on nothing substantial.

We know nothing? We know what Palladium is all about. We know What Microsoft is all about. Brought to a logical conclusion we can see one of many directions they could be going. If this constitutes "dogging" Microsoft, then so be it. Intelligent discussion about the possibilities of this future OS will include some comments like "Microsoft sucks" or "WTF are those idiots thinking". Why? Because privacy, security, and corporate responsibility are things people feel strongly about, just as you appear to feel strongly about the good qualities of Microsoft. Unfortunately, your glasses are rose in shade. Mine may be darker than most, but I would rather be over prepared than under prepared for the upcoming initiatives. And all of what we are talking about are genuine concerns based on previous actions by large corporations (something Microsoft happens to be) and actual documentation released about these technologies.

Doesn't Palladium have to be backed up by hardware? AMD has already said their CPU's won't follow Palladium suit, you will have the ability to turn it on or off.

And to gain the "benefits" of the system these drawbacks have to be turned on. Thats fine, as long as there will definitely be an option to turn it off. Apparently we will have that option, for now.

This is all like the Intel "Serial Number" that people threw a big fit about, but in the end it was an OPTION. There are alternatives if you don't like Palladium....hence Linux. But is the bashing necessary?

Yes, the bashing is necessary. Its how people work. Is the blind support for corporate giants with questionable motives necessary? Yes, zealotry is an important part of our lives, no matter how much some say it is not.

As far as it being a good thing for consumers...i really see no problem. I'm not a thief, so how's this going to hurt or affect me?

Thats like saying "Why should I use crypto? Im not a criminal!" Its absurd and the product of poor logic.

 

[Sunner]

AMD has said Opteron won't support Palladium, they haven't said anything about Athlon64.

And if none of this was true, don't you think MS would simply issue a statement saying so, seeing as this stuff isn't exactly good publicity.

Im not saying we should go out and crucify MS before we know all the details, but what we should do is remain vigilant, do you think MS would hesitate for a second before they screw you over if they egt the chance?
This passive attitude is what will make it easier for others to take your freedoms away.

Heck look at the new "copyrighted" CD's, perfect example of business screwing consumers over, do you think MS is any better?

 

[n0cmonkey]

TCPA/Palladium FAQ

2. What does TCPA / Palladium do, in ordinary English?

It provides a computing platform on which you can't tamper with the applications, and where these applications can communicate securely with the vendor. The obvious application is digital rights management (DRM): Disney will be able to sell you DVDs that will decrypt and run on a Palladium platform, but which you won't be able to copy. The music industry will be able to sell you music downloads that you won't be able to swap. They will be able to sell you CDs that you'll only be able to play three times, or only on your birthday. All sorts of new marketing possibilities will open up.

TCPA / Palladium will also make it much harder for you to run unlicensed software. Pirate software can be detected and deleted remotely. It will also make it easier for people to rent software rather than buying it; and if you stop paying the rent, then not only does the software stop working but so may the files it created. For years, Bill Gates has dreamed of finding a way to make the Chinese pay for software: Palladium could be the answer to his prayer.

There are many other possibilities. Governments will be able to arrange things so that all Word documents created on civil servants' PCs are `born classified' and can't be leaked electronically to journalists. Auction sites might insist that you use trusted proxy software for bidding, so that you can't bid tactically at the auction. Cheating at computer games could be made more difficult.

There is a downside too. There will be remote censorship: the mechanisms designed to delete pirated music under remote control may be used to delete documents that a court (or a software company) has decided are offensive - this could be anything from pornography to writings that criticise political leaders. Software companies can also make it harder for you to switch to their competitors' products; for example, Word could encrypt all your documents using keys that only Microsoft products have access to; this would mean that you could only read them using Microsoft products, not with any competing word processor.

[...]

22. What's TORA BORA?

This seems to have been an internal Microsoft joke: see the Palladium announcement. The idea is that `Trusted Operating Root Architecture' (Palladium) will stop the `Break Once Run Anywhere' attack, by which they mean that pirated content, once unprotected, can be posted to the net and used by anyone.

They seem to have realised since that this joke might be thought to be in bad taste. At a talk I attended on the 10th July at Microsoft Research, the slogan had changed to `BORE-resistance', where BORE standards for `Break Once Run Everywhere'. (By the way, the speaker there described copyright watermarking as `content screening', a term that used to refer to stopping minors seeing pornography: the PR machine is obviously twitching! He also told us that it would not work unless everyone used a trusted operating system. When I asked him whether this meant getting rid of linux he replied that linux users would have to be made to use content screening.)

23. But isn't PC security a good thing?

The question is: security for whom? You might prefer not to have to worry about viruses, but neither TCPA nor Palladium will fix that: viruses exploit the way software applications (such as Microsoft Office and Outlook) use scripting. You might get annoyed by spam, but that won't get fixed either. (Microsoft implies that it will be fixed, by filtering out all unsigned messages - but the spammers will just buy TCPA PCs. You'd be better off using your existing mail client to filter out mail from people you don't know and putting it in a folder you scan briefly once a day.) You might be worried about privacy, but neither TCPA nor Palladium will fix that; almost all privacy violations result from the abuse of authorised access, often obtained by coercing consent. The medical insurance company that requires you to consent to your data being shared with your employer and with anyone else they can sell it to, isn't going to stop just because their PCs are now officially `secure'. On the contrary, they are likely to sell it even more widely, because computers are now `trusted'.

Economists have noted that when a manufacturer makes a `green' product available, it often increases pollution, as people buy green rather than buying less; we may see a security equivalent of this `social choice trap', as it's called. In addition, by entrenching and expanding monopolies, TCPA will increase the incentives to price discriminate and thus to harvest personal data for profiling.

The most charitable view of TCPA is put forward by a Microsoft researcher: there are some applications in which you want to constrain the user's actions. For example, you want to stop people fiddling with the odometer on a car before they sell it. Similarly, if you want to do DRM on a PC then you need to treat the user as the enemy.

Seen in these terms, TCPA and Palladium do not so much provide security for the user as for the PC vendor, the software supplier, and the content industry. They do not add value for the user, but destroy it. They constrain what you can do with your PC in order to enable application and service vendors to extract more money from you. This is the classic definition of an exploitative cartel - an industry agreement that changes the terms of trade so as to diminish consumer surplus.

No doubt Palladium will be bundled with new features so that the package as a whole appears to add value in the short term, but the long-term economic, social and legal implications require serious thought.

 

[Talon]

In Canada, Bell (dial-up & dsl) and Rogers (cable) are working on a deal to develop and bundle the MSN portal and .NET in with their Internet services. Bell and Rogers probably account for the majority of Canadian broadband subscribers. British Telecom has cut a deal to be the new distributer of MSN 8.0 and .NET to its customers in Europe.

text

 

[Tiger]

This passive attitude is what will make it easier for others to take your freedoms away.

IMHO the passive attitude Sunner speaks of comes from the vast majority of home desktop users who have no idea what MS is doing.
They don't care as long as they can still do e-mail, surf the web, ICQ, etc....
The sad fact of the matter is that tech's and enthusiasts are severly outnumbered by people who don't know and don't care to know.

 

[LikeLinus]

<<Heck look at the new "copyrighted" CD's, perfect example of business screwing consumers over, do you think MS is any better? >>

Whatever happened to... "Don't like it, don't buy it". I understand people have problems with WPA and Palladium in general, but is sitting around a message board complaining going to help? DO SOMETHING if you don't like it, or just don't knock something that other people still use. The fact is nothing is set in stone and Microsoft cannot simply issue statments for every single little article written. How many people really visit seattlepi.nwsource.com? lol MS gets such bad publicity from haters that why bother? IT really doesn't hurt them, people still will purchase their product.

Additionally the article was PRO loghorn. It's the people HERE that change it all around to negative. It's not bad publicity.

Sunner, MS cannot personally "screw you over". You can either allow them to, or use a different product.

The original point was NorthernLove took a simple little feature review and turned it around into some big bad conspiracy longhorn crap. Eh it's just a bit lame.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: LikeLinus
<<Heck look at the new "copyrighted" CD's, perfect example of business screwing consumers over, do you think MS is any better? >>

Whatever happened to... "Don't like it, don't buy it".

Many of us follow that. I have not purchased a Windows OS since 98se, which came with my laptop.

I understand people have problems with WPA and Palladium in general, but is sitting around a message board complaining going to help? DO SOMETHING if you don't like it, or just don't knock something that other people still use.

It is called criticism. Chill.

The fact is nothing is set in stone and Microsoft cannot simply issue statments for every single little article written. How many people really visit seattlepi.nwsource.com? lol MS gets such bad publicity from haters that why bother? IT really doesn't hurt them, people still will purchase their product.

Education is the key. Us sitting around discussing these possibilities may help educate someone that is not as in tune as some of the other users here.

Additionally the article was PRO loghorn. It's the people HERE that change it all around to negative. It's not bad publicity.

No publicity is bad publicity.

Sunner, MS cannot personally "screw you over". You can either allow them to, or use a different product.

The original point was NorthernLove took a simple little feature review and turned it around into some big bad conspiracy longhorn crap. Eh it's just a bit lame.

So is blindly defending a company that has only its best interrests in mind. What you are asking for is censorship. We feel a certain way about these products. We like to say how we feel. Our views may be different than those of yourself or Ameesh (the biggest Microsoft supporter on the board, and rightly so), but we like to express them. Get off your high horse, practice what you preach. If you do not like the message we are trying to get out to the masses, tune us out. Get out of the thread or deal with it. It is your choice. We welcome people giving us other points of view or different things we may not have thought about, but the incessant whining on your part is making your argument moot.

Now, we can either have a discussion about this, with all of the Microsoft/Linux flaming that comes with it, or we can sit here shaking our heads at your thin skinned, bleeding heart, whiney little bitch like attitude. Your choice. I prefer the tech talk myself.

 

[Nothinman]

Additionally the article was PRO loghorn. It's the people HERE that change it all around to negative.

A lot of places are trying to play DRM as a feature that will help everyone, when it really will just get MS more control of your PC and the media giants control over what media you have acess to play.

Sunner, MS cannot personally "screw you over". You can either allow them to, or use a different product.

Try telling that to the companies that have a lot of documents in MS Office formats or run their corporate email off of Exchange, or even just the regular users who have paid for Win32 software that isn't transferrable to a new Mac or Linux. Using a different product isn't that simple.

The original point was NorthernLove took a simple little feature review and turned it around into some big bad conspiracy longhorn crap. Eh it's just a bit lame.

Hopefully all the LongHorn articles turn into conspiracy riddled discussions because the only way to get the general public to think about it is to make a big stink over and over and over.

 

[Sunner]

I use Win2K on one box and various NIXes on others, and I'd never vuy one of the copy protected CD's, but what good is this gonna do if only 1% of the people know about these things?
The record companies won't give one $hit if I don't buy the latest album just cause of copy protection, but the chances that they care will increase if I manage to enlighten more people about this and they all do the same.

Sticking your head in the sand won't do no good though, and once everything is setup and done it'll be too late.

I find it ironic that Americans are generally very fond of speaking about freedom and justice, etc, but in the end, these things always seem to begin in the US for some reason, and the public doesn't seem to care that the very freedom and justice they praise is taken away, bit by bit.

 

[LikeLinus]

<<or we can sit here shaking our heads at your thin skinned, bleeding heart, whiney little bitch like attitude. Your choice. I prefer the tech talk myself. >> Right, and i'm the one resorting to name calling. Petty and immature.Why am i not surprised?

 

[LikeLinus]

<<So is blindly defending a company that has only its best interrests in mind. What you are asking for is censorship. >> How hypocritical can you be? All i said was that twisting and turning an article into something it wasn't is lame. Is that really fair? I'm not blindly defending a company. I worked there for 2 years and It's one of the best working enviroments and companys I've ever worked for. I understand their business tactics have been a bit underhanded at times, but they have ever right to protect themselves against a product they are SELLING. You as a consumer have the choice to purchase or not. But to run around twisting and turning the words of an article is wrong.

PLEASE show me in the article where it says "Oh yeah say good-bye to 3rd party apps that you like that aren't made by MS because they are including the mother of all apps into their next version.." He also goes on to say to make alligations that MS will intentionally "not play nice" with 3rd party apps?

Yeah that's real fair. Hopefully the Sun or Enquirer will write up a story about him someday also. He wasn't simply making an opinion...there's a difference in saying "i dont like this because" and saying "say good bye to 3rd party apps that you like because".

Get over yourself and quit being hypocritical. If you dont like MY OPINION, there is no need to name call like a child and act immature.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: LikeLinus
<<or we can sit here shaking our heads at your thin skinned, bleeding heart, whiney little bitch like attitude. Your choice. I prefer the tech talk myself. >> Right, and i'm the one resorting to name calling. Petty and immature.Why am i not surprised?

I did not call you a name at all if that is what you are implying. I spelled out your attitude about this in simple 3rd grade words. Blunt and to the point, and maybe a little rude. But effective. Yet again, another post with nothing mroe than whining and elitist BS.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: LikeLinus
<<So is blindly defending a company that has only its best interrests in mind. What you are asking for is censorship. >> How hypocritical can you be? All i said was that twisting and turning an article into something it wasn't is lame. Is that really fair?

What does the media do? Fight fire with fire. Discuss the topics at hand whether the article you link to explains them well or not.

I'm not blindly defending a company. I worked there for 2 years and It's one of the best working enviroments and companys I've ever worked for.

I have not worked there, but from what I have heard I will believe you.

I understand their business tactics have been a bit underhanded at times, but they have ever right to protect themselves against a product they are SELLING. You as a consumer have the choice to purchase or not. But to run around twisting and turning the words of an article is wrong.

No twisting is necessary. The article was incomplete and biased, as is all media.

PLEASE show me in the article where it says "Oh yeah say good-bye to 3rd party apps that you like that aren't made by MS because they are including the mother of all apps into their next version.." He also goes on to say to make alligations that MS will intentionally "not play nice" with 3rd party apps?

Did you read the FAQ I posted. Microsoft could easily disallow any applications they did not want you to run.

Yeah that's real fair. Hopefully the Sun or Enquirer will write up a story about him someday also. He wasn't simply making an opinion...there's a difference in saying "i dont like this because" and saying "say good bye to 3rd party apps that you like because".

He brought it up in a sensationalized manner. Much like the media does.

Get over yourself and quit being hypocritical. If you dont like MY OPINION, there is no need to name call like a child and act immature.

I did not call you a name, I expressed my opinion on your attitude. I also posted some good information, which you so blindly ignored. Your opinion is fine, but when it involves trying to get other people to not express their opinion its not welcomed. Now please, can we discuss Palladium/DRM or are we going to continue bickering like children?

 

[LikeLinus]

whiney little bitch is considered name calling. Grow up. It only proves you can't hold a conversation without resorting to such low blows. Making personal remarks? Right, no you didn't do anything wrong 😱 Whatever man.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: LikeLinus
whiney little bitch is considered name calling. Grow up. It only proves you can't hold a conversation without resorting to such low blows. Making personal remarks? Right, no you didn't do anything wrong 😱 Whatever man.

Here is what I said:

your thin skinned, bleeding heart, whiney little bitch like attitude

So the name calling was directed at your attitude, not you. 🙂

Get the difference or should I draw it in crayon?

Now that was name calling. I hope you understand now. Have your mom call mine, she can ground me or something.

Any thoughts on why LongHorn is good for the consumer?

 

[N11]

I find it ironic that Americans are generally very fond of speaking about freedom and justice, etc, but in the end, these things always seem to begin in the US for some reason, and the public doesn't seem to care that the very freedom and justice they praise is taken away, bit by bit.

What differentiates Americans from countries like China is even though our sense of capitalistic freedom is less and less laissez faire driven each decade, in the end consumers can still speak with their wallets.

Microsoft's decisions may impact the future of technology for people that prefer their products, but in the long run I don't see any of their decisions making any sort of noteworthy impact on freedom in this country -- part of the reason you don't see linux using americans such as myself forming rallies in both washingtons to protest the leaked changes.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: N11

I find it ironic that Americans are generally very fond of speaking about freedom and justice, etc, but in the end, these things always seem to begin in the US for some reason, and the public doesn't seem to care that the very freedom and justice they praise is taken away, bit by bit.

What differentiates Americans from countries like China is even though our sense of capitalistic freedom is less and less laissez faire driven each decade, in the end consumers can still speak with their wallets.

Microsoft's decisions may impact the future of technology for people that prefer their products, but in the long run I don't see any of their decisions making any sort of noteworthy impact on freedom in this country -- part of the reason you don't see linux using americans such as myself forming rallies in both washingtons to protest the leaked changes.

Optional hardware DRM in 2004, mandatory in 2006... Its a possibility, and one we should watch out for.